MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

What is your favorite for MMRCA 2.0 ?

  • F-35 Blk 4

    Votes: 36 14.6%
  • Rafale F4

    Votes: 192 78.0%
  • Eurofighter Typhoon T3

    Votes: 4 1.6%
  • Gripen E/F

    Votes: 6 2.4%
  • F-16 B70

    Votes: 1 0.4%
  • F-18 SH

    Votes: 10 4.1%
  • F-15EX

    Votes: 9 3.7%
  • Mig-35

    Votes: 1 0.4%

  • Total voters
    246
You have a guy with his big hooves, the F-15 EX, who wants to fight against a fine blade, the Rafale. ;) :) :cool:
Better Radar , HMD and off boresight missiles will really mess up a Rafale's day. Though I doubt it will get to WVR. The BVR will do the job

I also saw you fumbeling over the F-35 rear view. Someone needs to explain EO-DAS to you. Let me know when they put rear view mirrors on the F-35, like other planes
 
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Better Radar , HMD and off boresight missiles will really mess up a Rafale's day. Though I doubt it will get to WVR. The BVR will do the job
This shows how much you ignore the characteristics of the Rafale: the Radar of the Rafale and the F-15 have about the same ranges but the radar equivalent area of the Rafale is more than 10 times smaller than that of the F-15 without counting the active cancellation of SPECTRA. There is no doubt that the Rafale will see the F-15 before the other way around. And HMD and off boresight missiles are also common on the Rafale and in addition the F-15 does not have the equivalent of the Meteor and does not have the maneuverability of the Rafale....
 
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This shows how much you ignore the characteristics of the Rafale: the Radar of the Rafale and the F-15 have about the same ranges but the radar equivalent area of the Rafale is more than 10 times smaller than that of the F-15 without counting the active cancellation of SPECTRA. There is no doubt that the Rafale will see the F-15 before the other way around. And HMD and off boresight missiles are also common on the Rafale and in addition the F-15 does not have the equivalent of the Meteor and does not have the maneuverability of the Rafale....
Its an air superiority fighter, it has its own advantage of speed, altitude etc. If Both Rafale & Eagle is evenly matching in EW arena( i dont know where both aircraft stands ), then i beleive EX will have advantages over Rafale when comes to air to air dog fight in BVR/wvr.

When comes to air to ground, Rafale will have definite advantage if you thinks logically because at the core level eagle is not designed as air to ground platform. But again, the vast variety of US made air to ground platforms will negate that advantages of Rafale here too.

The only advantages, and the biggest one when comes to indian scenario is the life cycle cost.
 
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The original Eagle was an air-to-air fighter, but the Strike Eagle is an air-to-ground platform first and foremost. Just like the original Mirage 2000C was air-to-air only, but the Mirage 2000D was air-to-ground only. So the basic airframe design doesn't do everything here.

Advantage of speed and altitude? Not so much. While the original Eagle boasted a max speed of Mach 2.5, this has never been true in practice, because carried stores not only increase drag, they also come with their own speed limits beyond which they become unsafe. So in practice, an air-to-air Eagle would be lucky to get Mach 1.8 max speed, and air-to-ground loadout would be much less.

For altitude, the limit of the pilot is reached before that of the aircraft. If your fighter pilot flies in a pressure suit, they can fly above those that do not have this equipment.

The Rafale remains much smaller and more maneuverable than the F-15, plus it has a much-longer ranged missile for BVR fights. However I'll concede that the F-15 is an excellent missile truck, able to carry some Ace Combat-style configuration with no less than twelve air-to-air missiles.
 
Its an air superiority fighter, it has its own advantage of speed, altitude etc. If Both Rafale & Eagle is evenly matching in EW arena( i dont know where both aircraft stands ), then i beleive EX will have advantages over Rafale when comes to air to air dog fight in BVR/wvr.
With the EPAWWS, the Americans are trying to copy what the Rafale is doing, but they have just started while we have been improving our system for 20 years.
 
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then i beleive EX will have advantages over Rafale when comes to air to air dog fight in BVR/wvr.
In no way the f-15EX will be superior in bvr to the typhoon, Rafale and super hornet. Although it will be a great SEAD/DEAD aircraft and ground pounder which we do need. We need an American aircraft to enter the IAF so that we can start integrating american munitions on the tejas.
 
Check the cost of F15 SA deal or QA deal first. Same for Eurofighter deals.

However good they might be, they are simply too costly.

If the competition is concluded, its Dassaults to loose. Even then Eurofighter, F15 , Mig35 and Su35 won't win.
 
The original Eagle was an air-to-air fighter, but the Strike Eagle is an air-to-ground platform first and foremost. Just like the original Mirage 2000C was air-to-air only, but the Mirage 2000D was air-to-ground only. So the basic airframe design doesn't do everything here.

Advantage of speed and altitude? Not so much. While the original Eagle boasted a max speed of Mach 2.5, this has never been true in practice, because carried stores not only increase drag, they also come with their own speed limits beyond which they become unsafe. So in practice, an air-to-air Eagle would be lucky to get Mach 1.8 max speed, and air-to-ground loadout would be much less.

For altitude, the limit of the pilot is reached before that of the aircraft. If your fighter pilot flies in a pressure suit, they can fly above those that do not have this equipment.

The Rafale remains much smaller and more maneuverable than the F-15, plus it has a much-longer ranged missile for BVR fights. However I'll concede that the F-15 is an excellent missile truck, able to carry some Ace Combat-style configuration with no less than twelve air-to-air missiles.
F-14A with 4 Sparrows and 4 Aim-9's was able to reach a top speed of Mach 2+
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F-15EX with CFT was able to reach Mach 2 and the pilot said if they were clean they would have been able to reach mach 2.5.

We got up to 40,000 feet and pushed out to Mach 2. That [speed] is a CFT [Conformal Fuel Tank] limitation. If it was a clean jet we’d go out to Mach 2.5. We did engine checks at 40,000 feet, at 30,000 feet, and then we came down to 20,000 feet and we intentionally shut down the perfectly good engines and then re-started those motors in both primary and secondary mode to prove the reliability of the General Electric GE-129 motors.

On 9/11/01 two F-15c's were scrambled to intercept the hijacked planes and during an interview with an F-15c pilot he said the load out back then for those alert fighters were two fox2's and four fox3's with two tanks and they were doing mach 1.2-1.4.

-Duff taxied out as No.1 While we were taxiing out, I followed him and we got the words to climb to a certain altitude and a certain heading in the direction of New York City.

DUFF: We're going down there. We’re accelerating to (Mach) 1.3, 1.4, so we’re doing a mile every three, four seconds. We’re kind of hauling the mail getting down there. And actually Nasty even called me up at one point and said, "Duff, you going supersonic?" And I said, "Yeah, OK." We’re not supposed to do that, but this time I figured we were high enough, we weren’t going to blow out any windows or do any damage so, we kept the Mach up trying to get there as quick as we could.
This is a heavy draggy load.

The Rafales top speed of mach 1.8 was recorded in clean configuration and it was the A model so Rafale F3 in a clean configuration is not going to be able to reach mach 1.8. Rafale hasn't gotten a thrust upgrade since it entered service.

US F-16 block 50s in South Korea after an engine swap was only able to reach mach 1.9 for a few seconds in a dive position.
 
From IAF preference, they are interested in medium weight category multirole jets mostly for ease of handling & logistics. So the idea of a heavyweight category one is not entertained. Given they are in charge of selection, the fight is down between almost certain rafale & EFT should they offer tranche 5 with large cost reduction over rafale. In practical world we think we already know the outcome.

IAF may like f15ex but chances are after committing to super sukhoi locally upgrade program with aesa radar & stuff , they do not want a space for a different heavyweight category plane. In the VR choudhury presentation there is specific mention of additional su30 & mig29s question marked which indicate it depends on govt decision due to geopolitics, but they probably prefer those additional numbers in su30 & mig29 form, not in a different jet in inventory form. That rules out f15ex or F21 etc.

Tu160s are also not in thoughts it seems,
Q&A:
Bharat Karnad: Long Range Manned Targeting Bomber Question?
CAS: Tuploves are the 60s designed and need escorting and no self-defense. We have better kinetic and non-kinetic means to handle long-range targets. Contactless warfare is preferred. Also, we have limited budgets

Air Defence Command: 1. Resources? 2. Way of IAF planning offensive operations. Omnirole aircraft perform the offensive role and also do combat air patrol as a defensive asset, we can't segregate them into one category of operation.
This part is interesting re CAP ops. Mirages do both. This is what they prefer.
 
From IAF preference, they are interested in medium weight category multirole jets mostly for ease of handling & logistics. So the idea of a heavyweight category one is not entertained. Given they are in charge of selection, the fight is down between almost certain rafale & EFT should they offer tranche 5 with large cost reduction over rafale. In practical world we think we already know the outcome.
We need both. One to replace the Jaguars and mig 27's one to replace the mirage and mig 29's.
Tranche 5 only wins if they offer the ecrs mk2 that the British are developing.
 
Ecrs mk2 will ioc in 2028-30. People advocating for the eagle, flanker or the typhoon forget that this is a multirole aircraft competition. Air superiority fighters converted to multirole will be inferior to dedicated multirole aircrafts. Let the IAF stick with the rafale. If bought in bulk we can get a production line.
 
Ecrs mk2 will ioc in 2028-30. People advocating for the eagle, flanker or the typhoon forget that this is a multirole aircraft competition. Air superiority fighters converted to multirole will be inferior to dedicated multirole aircrafts.

Lol. Oh is that right? How is the F-15EX/E inferior to Rafale? Also I guess by your "logic" the most famous/combat proven multirole fighter, the F-16, is inferior because it started as low cost air to air fighter?
 
Ecrs mk2 will ioc in 2028-30. People advocating for the eagle, flanker or the typhoon forget that this is a multirole aircraft competition. Air superiority fighters converted to multirole will be inferior to dedicated multirole aircrafts. Let the IAF stick with the rafale. If bought in bulk we can get a production line.
If thats the case IAF should go directly to Dassault & ink the deal.
 
Up until the time when IAF signs the Mk2 deal, no progress might happen for MRFA given the Aatmanirbhar set by the govt, they will not sign a cheque of 20 Bn unless IAF properly invest in mk2 & Amca. My guess is MRFA in full or G2G format will be given clearance right along with Mk2 & amca deals. Modi govt just waiting to shove enough desi made planes in IAF throat before giving them what they want.
We need both. One to replace the Jaguars and mig 27's one to replace the mirage and mig 29's.
Tranche 5 only wins if they offer the ecrs mk2 that the British are developing.

There is a chance we will procure some mig29 after all, I think right now the priority is a slight stabilization of the situation & also the f18 navy deal, so USA stop the caatsa situation ie govt playing a take it slow route to do deals with Russia. Obviously at some point they will be forced to act should nothing changes in next 2 years. The 12 Su30 deal will be done soon. So were getting enough heavyweight category & MRFA+Mk2 take care of medium multi role needs.
When we have already built infra for rafale, it does not make sense for EFT as we then have to handle 3 different types logistics post 2035, batches of rafale EFT & Mk2. Not possible. It will be shared by Mk2 & Rafale.
 
Note (Just for future reference) Might happen/ Might not Happen

Russia has a squadron worths Su35 originally meant for Egyptian Airforce, but undelivered to Egypt due to American pressure on Egypt. Russia is searching for customers for this around 18-20 airframes.

Russia has reached out to Algeria, Vietnam, China , Iran and "India" for it.

If MRCBF goes to SH, and Russians offer the squadron for good price and we get Americans to ignore CAATSA for one more time, IAF may buy this as emergency purchase.

Lots of ifs and buts. But as we are discussing things, so am putting this out.
 
Note (Just for future reference) Might happen/ Might not Happen

Russia has a squadron worths Su35 originally meant for Egyptian Airforce, but undelivered to Egypt due to American pressure on Egypt. Russia is searching for customers for this around 18-20 airframes.

Russia has reached out to Algeria, Vietnam, China , Iran and "India" for it.

If MRCBF goes to SH, and Russians offer the squadron for good price and we get Americans to ignore CAATSA for one more time, IAF may buy this as emergency purchase.

Lots of ifs and buts. But as we are discussing things, so am putting this out.
Omg omg... Its just a mediocre heavy class aircraft, F15EX is million times superior to SU35. Its better to fly in vintage Mig21 than flying a brand new SU35, because we may forced to fly su35 for another 40 years, means flying a mediocre aircraft for another 40 years.
 
Omg omg... Its just a mediocre heavy class aircraft, F15EX is million times superior to SU35. Its better to fly in vintage Mig21 than flying a brand new SU35, because we may forced to fly su35 for another 40 years, means flying a mediocre aircraft for another 40 years.
Russians have reached out and in the past IAF has rejected Su35 for its almost double the operational costs compared to our MKIs.

Russians wanted to pitch and we heard it. Nothing more has happened. But something may happen for the right price.
 
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