US Presidential Elections 2024.

Don't know how you arrived at that figure.

According to Biden, it was more like $2 trillion.
"After more than $2 trillion spent in Afghanistan — a cost that researchers at Brown University estimated would be over $300 million a day for 20 years in Afghanistan — for two decades — yes, the American people should hear this: $300 million a day for two decades."
That was infrastructure costs not war costs.
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Maybe you should blame the guy who thought it'd be a good idea to get into a war without considering whether he has the resources & political capital to see things through.

What exactly did all those South Vietnamese die for?
Unfortunately voters are too wimpy. I mean, no Americans are even dying in Ukraine and yet still they complain about the tenth of a % of GDP being spent on it.
Blame for what? Nowhere in the job description of POTUS is it said that building the Afghan nation is his responsibility.
No but if you decide to pull out that's your reponsibility.
India built roads, dams, bridges (and even the Afghan Parliament House) as well. That doesn't mean Afg stops being a tribal society at its heart.

In no realistic way can anyone expect the US to remain for a 100 years. That requires the kind of political & policy continuity only monarchical bloodlines can provide (or at least a hereditary dictatorship). Not in a democracy, where policy lasts only about as long as human memory or at best, for as long as a single generation.

Maybe if Trump turns the US into a fascist dictatorship you can expect more policy continuity LOL.
Therein lies the problem. Wimpy voters. Given they new about this phenomenon they should have withdrawn in 2011.
Why do you care if the Soviets oppress a bunch of Islamist radicals. The American support to the Mujis was a poorly thought-out knee jerk reaction to the loss suffered due to Soviet & Chinese support to NVA/Viet Cong.

Not saying correlation equals causation but the withdrawal from Afg without achieving any objectives was a key factor leading to collapse in the belief that the Soviet state can get things done.
They destroyed it in the first place. It was doing fine up until 1973 but they tried to turn it into a socialist state by covertly sponsoring coup. The result was a non-state for 6 years followed by occupation followed by a non-state.
Elsewhere like who? Nobody else was moving that amount of cheap oil except China.

Any other source would've been far more expensive as their crude inputs wouldn't be price-capped.
So? It would have left Russia without revenue.
I'm not seeing any of these sources make a distinction between actual aid delivered and amounts pledged/allocated/committed (which are highly unreliable numbers anyway, everything committed does not get delivered).
It's right there on the graph, the dashed red line and in the text. Scroll back up.
The Team of the Ukraine Support Tracker introduces a new measure to track foreign government aid to Ukraine – government “allocations”. The data show that total European aid has long overtaken U.S. aid - not only in terms of commitments, but also in terms of specific aid allocations sent to Ukraine. In addition, the approval of the EU's Ukraine Support Facility guarantees further financial assistance. However, the gap between EU commitments and allocations remains very large (€144 billion committed vs. €77 billion allocated). To fully replace U.S. military assistance in 2024, Europe would have to double its current level and pace of arms assistance. These are results from the latest Ukraine Support Tracker update, which now covers aid through January 15, 2024.

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Even if we assume it is, conservatively the EU is gonna have to at least DOUBLE what they're spending if the US withdraws. And most of that is gonna have to come from Germany which at this point has been in recession for over five consecutive quarters. It's not gonna be popular.
It's more like an increase by 50% at EU and national level.
But they're gonna have to do it somehow or Moldova's gonna be next on Putin's itinerary. Or maybe he'll go easy on Europe for as long as Trump's in office and decide to focus on the Caucasus - Georgia is an unfinished project.
Personally, I'd just have him assassinated. I'm f*cking sick of people who think they're untouchable. This whole idea of leaving someone alone because they're a leader is lost on me. Don't care if it's the law. They ignore the law so...
Biden got the US into the Ukraine war, albeit indirectly. They spent a fairly hefty sum of taxpayer money on it - far more than what Trump's Syria strikes costed.
Putin started the war in 2014 and 2022, no one else. ...and the protests 2013 for that matter.
That's fine - that'll keep costs to a minimum and retain the ability of units to quickly pivot to a different theatre if the need arises.
It is until the knock-on consequences.
That's smart warfighting. Not like what Obama got the US into.
Where did Obama put boots on the ground?
 
That was infrastructure costs not war costs.
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Read the text in that graphic. It says $43 billion is the average annual spend on military over the given period. Not the total spend.

So at $43 billion per year for 10 years is $430 billion. But the fighting in Afg continued for a further 10 years after the period mentioned in the graphic. If we extrapolate the same formula (add in inflation etc.) we're in the ballpark of a cool $1 trillion over the 20 years. And about half of that would've been spent AFTER Bid Laden was killed. Useless expenditure. Achieved absolutely nothing. But I bet a lot of people in the MIC got rich so Obama was happy to keep cutting the cheques.

So yeah, $2 trillion was probably including the infrastructure & nation building endeavours, but at least half of that was pure military spending.

Unfortunately voters are too wimpy. I mean, no Americans are even dying in Ukraine and yet still they complain about the tenth of a % of GDP being spent on it.

Therein lies the problem. Wimpy voters. Given they new about this phenomenon they should have withdrawn in 2011.

Agreed.

And that's why I said it's a bad idea to count on the US for security guarantees. Buy what you want from them, sure. But every one of America's allies MUST do whatever they can to be ready to fight their own wars, because it might very well come down to that.

And if possible, they need to avoid getting into a war they're not ready to fight all alone, even if that means having to reasses & realign their policies and posture in line with what their own national capabilities are - rather than on the basis of what the alliance's capabilities are.

That's a lesson that every American ally should've learnt after the Vietnam withdrawal. The bureaucrats in the American system might be your friend - but the American electorate is not anyone's friend.

At least not anymore, now that we're in the internet age and the isolationist section of the American electorate (which has actually always been there, enjoying various levels of prevalance at different time periods if you look through American history) has learnt how to manipulate public opinion to their liking...and they might very well purge the US system of the globalist bureaucrats.

So? It would have left Russia without revenue.

They'd still have China.

And a Russia that's solely dependent on China for its economic survival is a dangerous proposition for everyone.

It's right there on the graph, the dashed red line and in the text. Scroll back up.


View attachment 37993

It's more like an increase by 50% at EU and national level.

Well even the text you quoted estimates that they'd need to double it if the US withdraws.

Personally, I'd just have him assassinated. I'm f*cking sick of people who think they're untouchable. This whole idea of leaving someone alone because they're a leader is lost on me. Don't care if it's the law. They ignore the law so...

It's not like the Ukrainians aren't already trying their level best to assassinate Putin. Russian counter-intelligence has just proven too difficult to get through so far.

That said...you know, they talk about the Deep State in the US. The notion that certain policies will continue no matter who's in power (something Trump wants to dismantle but that's a different topic). I wonder if Russia has a similar thing going.

It's not like conflict over controlling the access through the North European Plain started with Putin. It's what the Soviets wanted too (Molotov-Ribbentrop), and before them, the Tsars.

Assassinating Putin might give pause to Russia's calculations (as any successor would take time to consolidate power) but it's unlikely to change what Russia, as a geopolitical entity, ultimately wants.

Putin started the war in 2014 and 2022, no one else. ...and the protests 2013 for that matter.

Ukraine was not a treaty ally. There was no Mutual Defence Agreement that bound the US to come to Ukraine's rescue if it's attacked.

Biden wasn't forced to involve the US in this war. He did it by choice.

It is until the knock-on consequences.

Like what? Turning Iran into an eternal enemy where most people think the US is literal Satan?

They already do that. It might be prudent to carry out an aerial campaign to make sure they don't acquire a nuclear weapon. There's already one Islamic Republic in the world with nukes and that's one too many. Nobody needs another. Especially not Israel.

But boots on ground would be foolish.

Where did Obama put boots on the ground?

He surged troops to Afg and Iraq several times. Not to mention the decision to stay on in Afg even after OBL was killed.
 
Read the text in that graphic. It says $43 billion is the average annual spend on military over the given period. Not the total spend.
So at $43 billion per year for 10 years is $430 billion. But the fighting in Afg continued for a further 10 years after the period mentioned in the graphic. If we extrapolate the same formula (add in inflation etc.) we're in the ballpark of a cool $1 trillion over the 20 years. And about half of that would've been spent AFTER Bid Laden was killed. Useless expenditure. Achieved absolutely nothing. But I bet a lot of people in the MIC got rich so Obama was happy to keep cutting the cheques.

So yeah, $2 trillion was probably including the infrastructure & nation building endeavours, but at least half of that was pure military spending.
There was no real fighting after 2010, which is why it ends there. The graphic contains data after that point since Ukraine is on it. It's still only <0.15% of US GDP per year at $43bn. The US spent more than that on the Black Budget during the Cold War, WITHOUT even adjusting for today's prices. The moon landing cost that much in 1969 WITHOUT adjusting for today's prices.
Agreed.

And that's why I said it's a bad idea to count on the US for security guarantees. Buy what you want from them, sure. But every one of America's allies MUST do whatever they can to be ready to fight their own wars, because it might very well come down to that.

And if possible, they need to avoid getting into a war they're not ready to fight all alone, even if that means having to reasses & realign their policies and posture in line with what their own national capabilities are - rather than on the basis of what the alliance's capabilities are.

That's a lesson that every American ally should've learnt after the Vietnam withdrawal. The bureaucrats in the American system might be your friend - but the American electorate is not anyone's friend.

At least not anymore, now that we're in the internet age and the isolationist section of the American electorate (which has actually always been there, enjoying various levels of prevalance at different time periods if you look through American history) has learnt how to manipulate public opinion to their liking...and they might very well purge the US system of the globalist bureaucrats.
More like Russia has learnt to manipulate the isolationist section and Trump probably did something while friends with Jeffrey Epstein and is under the thumb.
They'd still have China.
Which could then be sanctioned on oil exports.
And a Russia that's solely dependent on China for its economic survival is a dangerous proposition for everyone.
It already is anyway, so no change. It's China that's funding Russia's War, they're probably paying for NK to make the shells, probably even making them themselves and funneling them through NK.

Russia's economy is slowly crumbling. It's can't even nearly meet its target of 4% inflation even with 21% interest rates. They started hiking rates in August from 16% to 21% but the ruble kept plummeting. That's indicative of money being printed into existence rather than borrowed. Back in 2022 and 2023 when they raised interest rates the market responded and the ruble rose, but now there's no response.

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Well even the text you quoted estimates that they'd need to double it if the US withdraws.
The EU allocation is from the EU itself as an institution, it doesn't include national contributions from EU member states and Non-EU NATO states, which is what my first chart showed. Add together the member states and it comes to 80% the US contribution, and the EU contribution is slightly more. Together EU and members contribute ~2x the US contribution, so 50% more will do it.
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It's not like the Ukrainians aren't already trying their level best to assassinate Putin. Russian counter-intelligence has just proven too difficult to get through so far.
All of NATO should be trying to do it.
That said...you know, they talk about the Deep State in the US. The notion that certain policies will continue no matter who's in power (something Trump wants to dismantle but that's a different topic).
Sensible policies you mean?
I wonder if Russia has a similar thing going.
No, they're all Putin's yes-men, especially after the last man who went against him gave up and was killed.
It's not like conflict over controlling the access through the North European Plain started with Putin. It's what the Soviets wanted too (Molotov-Ribbentrop), and before them, the Tsars.

Assassinating Putin might give pause to Russia's calculations (as any successor would take time to consolidate power) but it's unlikely to change what Russia, as a geopolitical entity, ultimately wants.
Concerns from the time of Empire are no longer relevant. NATO was never about to invade Russia. If they had a mind to do that, they'd attacking them directly in Ukraine don't you think? NATO invading Russia would never get through Parliament anywhere in NATO, even if some crazy leader wanted to, which also has exactly zero probability.
Ukraine was not a treaty ally. There was no Mutual Defence Agreement that bound the US to come to Ukraine's rescue if it's attacked.

Biden wasn't forced to involve the US in this war. He did it by choice.
Everyone is obliged to help Ukraine by International Law. Plus there was something called the Budapest Memorandum, which Russia broke, hence why no deal with them is worth jack shit.

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Like what? Turning Iran into an eternal enemy where most people think the US is literal Satan?
The Middle East is complicated. Yes the Saudis etc. don't like Iran but they hate Israel more, it's a complicated situation involving a region where all the world's oil comes from. You're also not correct on the latter, the position of many Iranians is not the position of the regime on the US but seeing Israel batter Palestinians simply makes them lose their capability for rational analysis of what happened and why it happened. This is one of the reasons Iran and Russia started the current war. Both Russia and Iran wanted a distraction, Russia from its atrocities in Ukraine and Iran from its police beating women to death for not wearing a hijab plus the executions that followed. By making Israel the victim and then the bad guys (because Hamas and Hezbollah hide everything under civilian apartments), Russia has distarcted the world from Ukraine and the Iranian regime has focused its people against Israel rather itself. Russia has also divided US aid between Ukraine and Israel (which probably also helped Trump win the Jewish vote in the US - less money for Ukraine = more for Israel) and Iran and Russia have turned world opinion against Israel and by extension the US and NATO. Two wrongs made it right, the irony.
They already do that. It might be prudent to carry out an aerial campaign to make sure they don't acquire a nuclear weapon. There's already one Islamic Republic in the world with nukes and that's one too many. Nobody needs another. Especially not Israel.

But boots on ground would be foolish.
Too far underground, you'd need a nuke to take out their nuclear program.
He surged troops to Afg and Iraq several times. Not to mention the decision to stay on in Afg even after OBL was killed.
And it worked. By the end of it the US itself was ~5x more dangerous for police than Iraq and Afghanistan combined were for US soliders. One soldier even said that it was a mere policing operation in the end.


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There was no real fighting after 2010, which is why it ends there. The graphic contains data after that point since Ukraine is on it. It's still only <0.15% of US GDP per year at $43bn.

Fighting on the ground winded down but the air campaign continued. Bombs & sorties aren't cheap. The spending continued in large sums.

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My ballpark estimate was right - the total military expenditure on Afg was close to a trillion. And that's without taking the last 2 years into account.

But the more important thing is, half of that spending was done with absolutely nothing to show for it.

The US spent more than that on the Black Budget during the Cold War, WITHOUT even adjusting for today's prices. The moon landing cost that much in 1969 WITHOUT adjusting for today's prices.

US won the Cold War - all that spending had actual deliverables that advanced American capabilities vis-a-vis USSR in case of a war. The R&D done for the space program is still useful today and will continue to be useful when colonizing the inner solar system becomes a reality.

The spending in Afg was useless - it was spent to play whack-a-mole and to prop up a corrupt regime that couldn't even stand for a week after the US withdrawal. That's wasteful expenditure courtesy Obama. Trump deserves credit for taking the decision to leave. But Biden, probably in a demented stupor which he gets all too often, decided to mess it up by leaving billions worth of military equipment in Taliban hands.

Or maybe it was the decision of the kooks that surround him. They call it the Biden-Harris administration after all.

More like Russia has learnt to manipulate the isolationist section and Trump probably did something while friends with Jeffrey Epstein and is under the thumb.

Russiagate was a hoax cooked up by Hillary's campaign office. Did Russia perform influence operations to help Trump win because they thought he'd be a better President to work with? Probably, but the Mueller report concluded that there was no compelling evidence to say that Russia colluded with Trump.

The fact is, Trump won (both times) because the American electorate liked what he stood for.

Which could then be sanctioned on oil exports.

What do you mean?

If you mean sanctioning export of oil to China, it's not gonna happen because PRC is a far more important & larger customer of MidEast oil than anyone else. Nobody in the GCC would go through with it. Iran would anyway not adhere to it.

If you mean sanctioning China - it depends on what kind you mean. The kind of stuff on the fringes like what's already happening is unlikely to hurt them much. If you want to pursue a far more comprehensive sanctions regime that suspends all imports from China - good like with that.

It already is anyway, so no change.

Not it's not.

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Russia's economy is slowly crumbling. It's can't even nearly meet its target of 4% inflation even with 21% interest rates. They started hiking rates in August from 16% to 21% but the ruble kept plummeting. That's indicative of money being printed into existence rather than borrowed. Back in 2022 and 2023 when they raised interest rates the market responded and the ruble rose, but now there's no response.

If the peace deal is reached sometime in 2025, it'll likely include lifting of all sanctions on Russia. Including the price-cap on Russian crude.

Their export revenues will soar. And there's no guarantee the EU won't go back to restoring energy ties with Russia to pre-war levels.

The EU allocation is from the EU itself as an institution, it doesn't include national contributions from EU member states and Non-EU NATO states, which is what my first chart showed. Add together the member states and it comes to 80% the US contribution, and the EU contribution is slightly more. Together EU and members contribute ~2x the US contribution, so 50% more will do it.
View attachment 38024

That's including all types of aid. But the US alone is supplying as much military aid (hardware) as everyone else combined if not more.

EU countries may need to spend 50% more to account for the US withdrawal of aid in absolute terms. But EU doesn't have the military-industrial base to produce that much hardware themselves so they'll need to pay others to account for the military aid on top of that. That will add a further 50% to the total spending.

All in all, that gets you to double of what they're spending now. They could choose to just spend on military aid & ignore/cut down on economic/humanitarian aid but then again these are European bureaucrats you're dealing with. For them, signalling their virtue is far more important than actually being virtuous. So remains to be seen if they can adopt austerity.

All of NATO should be trying to do it.

There's probably a reason why they aren't.

Sensible policies you mean?

If they make sense to non-Americans but not to the American voters, then they're not sensible policies. They're misguided policies.

You might get away with freeloading off the American taxpayer when everything is fine & dandy, but when the going gets even a little bit tough (as happened in the post-COVID era), that might become difficult.

No, they're all Putin's yes-men, especially after the last man who went against him gave up and was killed.

That's the way the Russian system has always worked. Power is centralized & concentrated at the top.

Concerns from the time of Empire are no longer relevant. NATO was never about to invade Russia. If they had a mind to do that, they'd attacking them directly in Ukraine don't you think? NATO invading Russia would never get through Parliament anywhere in NATO, even if some crazy leader wanted to, which also has exactly zero probability.

Trust was broken when the US promised not to expand NATO eastwards but did it anyway.

The countries that were already part of NATO at the time USSR fell were protected by Article 5 & the US nuclear umbrella. There was no way Russia could have invaded them. So there was no reason to add former Soviet republics into NATO - you only do that if you want to add some buffer territory between you and Russia. Why do you need a buffer unless you plan on having hostilities with Russia down the line?

And remember a lot of it was done when Yeltsin was president so the 'We did it cuz Putin is Evil' theory doesn't hold.

Note that I'm NOT saying you were wrong to anticipate hostilities with Russia down the line - because NATO may not last forever, and then the only thing giving Western Europe the time to prepare for war would be these buffer countries - I'm just saying Russia wasn't wrong in anticipating hostilities with you either. That brings us to where we are. It's easy to say it's all cuz the other guy is evil - the truth is more complicated & nuanced.

So many continental European leaders over the centuries invaded Russia and so many might do it in the future. The current political & military balance in Europe is the result of a particular series of events, but this situation won't last forever.

Nukes might deter conflict...but if both sides have them, they're more likely to just ensure that neither side uses them for fear of retaliation, while conventional warfighting, probably over control of territory in Eastern Europe, will continue under the nuclear overhang. That theory was proved in the Kargil War.

Everyone is obliged to help Ukraine by International Law.

No they're not. Otherwise actual Mutual/Collective Defence Treaties (like NATO) have no meaning.

Plus there was something called the Budapest Memorandum, which Russia broke, hence why no deal with them is worth jack shit.

View attachment 38025

A memorandum is not a ratified treaty.

And any way, it calls for the UNSC to provide assistance in case Ukraine gets nuked. It hasn't. So nobody is obligated to help Ukraine.

The Budapest Memorandum was more of an instrument that was used to cheat Ukraine out of its nukes in return for jack shit. And the US & UK were a party to that. If they were serious about defending Ukraine they would've signed & ratified a Mutual Defence Agreement with Kiev in exchange for them giving up their nukes.

But all they got was essentially a word of mouth assurance (which is why Trump is now able to go back on assistance to Ukraine without breaking the law).

That's what comes of trusting American (or British) bureaucrats.

The Middle East is complicated. Yes the Saudis etc. don't like Iran but they hate Israel more, it's a complicated situation involving a region where all the world's oil comes from. You're also not correct on the latter, the position of many Iranians is not the position of the regime on the US

There is a critical mass of people that share the same vision of the regime. Otherwise the Ayatollahs would've been overthrown.

Like in any regime, there are dissenters. But right now that number isn't many. Far from the critical mass needed to change the regime's outlook.

but seeing Israel batter Palestinians simply makes them lose their capability for rational analysis of what happened and why it happened. This is one of the reasons Iran and Russia started the current war. Both Russia and Iran wanted a distraction, Russia from its atrocities in Ukraine and Iran from its police beating women to death for not wearing a hijab plus the executions that followed. By making Israel the victim and then the bad guys (because Hamas and Hezbollah hide everything under civilian apartments), Russia has distarcted the world from Ukraine and the Iranian regime has focused its people against Israel rather itself. Russia has also divided US aid between Ukraine and Israel (which probably also helped Trump win the Jewish vote in the US - less money for Ukraine = more for Israel) and Iran and Russia have turned world opinion against Israel and by extension the US and NATO. Two wrongs made it right, the irony.

US policy in this regard makes sense. Ukraine has got a lot of European countries that at least in theory have got the resources to back them up. Israel only has the US.

Too far underground, you'd need a nuke to take out their nuclear program.

Israel has been hurting & setting back the Iranian nuke program for decades. There's a lot of stuff above ground - including the scientists & generals in charge of the program.

And it worked. By the end of it the US itself was ~5x more dangerous for police than Iraq and Afghanistan combined were for US soliders. One soldier even said that it was a mere policing operation in the end.


It didn't work. Iraq was another failed project, waste of another trillion dollars.

As soon as US forces left, the process of crumbling began. Right now Iraq is little more than a proxy or extension of Iran where IRGC can operate with free will.

The likes of Saddam & Gaddafi might be objectively terrible people, but they knew how to keep this part of the world under control. ISIS would've been nipped in the bud if Saddam or his successors were around. Going into Iraq for the second time on the cooked-up pretext of WMDs was a stupid move.
 
Fighting on the ground winded down but the air campaign continued. Bombs & sorties aren't cheap. The spending continued in large sums.

View attachment 38032
Over 20 years that's pittance. Current US GDP is $29.168tr, sums like $52bn are only ~0.17% of that. Policing in the US costs >4x that.


My ballpark estimate was right - the total military expenditure on Afg was close to a trillion. And that's without taking the last 2 years into account.

But the more important thing is, half of that spending was done with absolutely nothing to show for it.
I've already showed you the difference it made. Coalition troop deaths were minimal by 2016. The Taliban had been reduced to hiding in remote territories where they were visited regularly by Apaches, AC-130s and other CAS aircraft.

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US won the Cold War - all that spending had actual deliverables that advanced American capabilities vis-a-vis USSR in case of a war. The R&D done for the space program is still useful today and will continue to be useful when colonizing the inner solar system becomes a reality.

The spending in Afg was useless - it was spent to play whack-a-mole and to prop up a corrupt regime that couldn't even stand for a week after the US withdrawal. That's wasteful expenditure courtesy Obama. Trump deserves credit for taking the decision to leave. But Biden, probably in a demented stupor which he gets all too often, decided to mess it up by leaving billions worth of military equipment in Taliban hands.

Or maybe it was the decision of the kooks that surround him. They call it the Biden-Harris administration after all.
It was left for the Afghan government.
Russiagate was a hoax cooked up by Hillary's campaign office. Did Russia perform influence operations to help Trump win because they thought he'd be a better President to work with? Probably, but the Mueller report concluded that there was no compelling evidence to say that Russia colluded with Trump.

The fact is, Trump won (both times) because the American electorate liked what he stood for.

He focused on narrow popular issues with no decent big picture policy.
What do you mean?

If you mean sanctioning export of oil to China, it's not gonna happen because PRC is a far more important & larger customer of MidEast oil than anyone else. Nobody in the GCC would go through with it. Iran would anyway not adhere to it.

If you mean sanctioning China - it depends on what kind you mean. The kind of stuff on the fringes like what's already happening is unlikely to hurt them much. If you want to pursue a far more comprehensive sanctions regime that suspends all imports from China - good like with that.
You sanction the export of oil products from China. Sure some countries might still take it, but much less.
Buying their oil means jack shit. Russia is dependent on China's financing and dual purpose equipment. If you control the purse strings, you control the country.
If the peace deal is reached sometime in 2025, it'll likely include lifting of all sanctions on Russia. Including the price-cap on Russian crude.

Their export revenues will soar. And there's no guarantee the EU won't go back to restoring energy ties with Russia to pre-war levels.
The EU won't follow suit. They've already stated that no sanctions will be lifted whilst Russian boots remain in Ukraine. Putin will have to be long gone before they change their mind on that. They're also conscious of the fact that a loose hand with Russia is what caused this mess in the first place - maximum sanctions should have been applied from the moment Russia entered Crimea. If they make the same mistake again, it would only cause more such problems in the future. Trump, on the other hand, is a f*cking idiot, so who knows.
That's including all types of aid. But the US alone is supplying as much military aid (hardware) as everyone else combined if not more.
But if we weren't supplying the other aid, Ukraine would have less money to buy weapons with or produce its own. In a time of war, all aid is ultimately military aid.
EU countries may need to spend 50% more to account for the US withdrawal of aid in absolute terms. But EU doesn't have the military-industrial base to produce that much hardware themselves so they'll need to pay others to account for the military aid on top of that. That will add a further 50% to the total spending.
The European industrial base is growing but I doubt Trump could stop the EU buying US weapons. Other elected representatives and lobbyists would metaphorically kick his head in if he tried.
All in all, that gets you to double of what they're spending now. They could choose to just spend on military aid & ignore/cut down on economic/humanitarian aid but then again these are European bureaucrats you're dealing with. For them, signalling their virtue is far more important than actually being virtuous. So remains to be seen if they can adopt austerity.
Is $46bn/year a lot to make up for the entire EU and the rest of NATO + Aus + Japan + SK. Again, it's about down in low tenths of a % of GDP.
There's probably a reason why they aren't.
It's officially against international law but if I'm playing football and the other team pulls out machetes, I see no logic in continuing to follow the rules of the game.
If they make sense to non-Americans but not to the American voters, then they're not sensible policies. They're misguided policies.
They're big picture policies that low brows can't see. Quantum physics makes sense to quantum physicists but not to burger flippers, that doesn't make it misguided. Stop illegal immigration however appeals to everyone and Trump pretty much won the campaign on that alone.
You might get away with freeloading off the American taxpayer when everything is fine & dandy, but when the going gets even a little bit tough (as happened in the post-COVID era), that might become difficult.
How is it freeloading when we're paying more per capita than the US is?
That's the way the Russian system has always worked. Power is centralized & concentrated at the top.
A brutal despot regime hidden behind a well-spoken bald git.
Trust was broken when the US promised not to expand NATO eastwards but did it anyway.
The countries that were already part of NATO at the time USSR fell were protected by Article 5 & the US nuclear umbrella. There was no way Russia could have invaded them. So there was no reason to add former Soviet republics into NATO - you only do that if you want to add some buffer territory between you and Russia. Why do you need a buffer unless you plan on having hostilities with Russia down the line?

And remember a lot of it was done when Yeltsin was president so the 'We did it cuz Putin is Evil' theory doesn't hold.
Russia expanded first. Early-90s - Transnistria, South Ossetia and Abkhazia Wars. That broke the rules. But for the Chechen War we'd have seen more little pseudo separatist states like that popping up, possibly even in the Baltics. Having seen that we weren't going to take their word anymore.


Plus no word was given about allowing countries to join NATO, both sides agreed not to invade any of the buffer states.

Note that I'm NOT saying you were wrong to anticipate hostilities with Russia down the line - because NATO may not last forever, and then the only thing giving Western Europe the time to prepare for war would be these buffer countries - I'm just saying Russia wasn't wrong in anticipating hostilities with you either. That brings us to where we are. It's easy to say it's all cuz the other guy is evil - the truth is more complicated & nuanced.
Russia was completely wrong. Since the formation of NATO, Russia/USSR has exclusively been the sole aggressor in Europe (not to mention the annexation of all of Eastern Europe after WWII).
Hungary -1956
Czechoslovakia - 1968
Transnistria - 1992
South Ossetia - 1992 and 2008
Abkhazia - 1992 and 2008
Crimea - 2014
SE Ukraine 2022-2024

Russia knows damn well that we would not invade them. Other European countries do not have faith that Russia will not invade them, hence why even Finland and Sweden ended up joining NATO, despite being neutral from 1945-2022.
So many continental European leaders over the centuries invaded Russia and so many might do it in the future. The current political & military balance in Europe is the result of a particular series of events, but this situation won't last forever.

Nukes might deter conflict...but if both sides have them, they're more likely to just ensure that neither side uses them for fear of retaliation, while conventional warfighting, probably over control of territory in Eastern Europe, will continue under the nuclear overhang. That theory was proved in the Kargil War.
Those were times where empires and conquests were normal. These days they're not normal, unless you're Russsia. Russia also invaded a lot of Europe, in fact it invaded everything from Novgorod to Alaska. People often criticise Western Europeans for invading North America, but think about what would have happened if they hadn't given that Russia annexed Alaska in the 18th century. Russia/USSR would have conquered North America and South America, achieved world dominance and Berlinda Carlisle's song would have been renamed "Hell is a place on Earth."
No they're not. Otherwise actual Mutual/Collective Defence Treaties (like NATO) have no meaning.
They do otherwise International Law and right and wrong have no meaning. Some wars are grey, this one is black and white.
A memorandum is not a ratified treaty.

And any way, it calls for the UNSC to provide assistance in case Ukraine gets nuked. It hasn't. So nobody is obligated to help Ukraine.

The Budapest Memorandum was more of an instrument that was used to cheat Ukraine out of its nukes in return for jack shit. And the US & UK were a party to that. If they were serious about defending Ukraine they would've signed & ratified a Mutual Defence Agreement with Kiev in exchange for them giving up their nukes.

But all they got was essentially a word of mouth assurance (which is why Trump is now able to go back on assistance to Ukraine without breaking the law).

That's what comes of trusting American (or British) bureaucrats.
It's a moral agreement. And it's what happens when you elect a fool like Trump.
There is a critical mass of people that share the same vision of the regime. Otherwise the Ayatollahs would've been overthrown.
Combination of fear and a minority with guns. Same for DPRK.
Like in any regime, there are dissenters. But right now that number isn't many. Far from the critical mass needed to change the regime's outlook.
With guns and some tanks they would be mor ethan enough.
US policy in this regard makes sense. Ukraine has got a lot of European countries that at least in theory have got the resources to back them up. Israel only has the US.
Israel has already won its country is not at risk, it's basically pest control at this point.
Israel has been hurting & setting back the Iranian nuke program for decades. There's a lot of stuff above ground - including the scientists & generals in charge of the program.
It's unlikely that the regime has them working without making notes and documentation, or training up others for that matter. Iran wouldn't leave any individual as indispensible unless they're really f*cking stupid.
It didn't work. Iraq was another failed project, waste of another trillion dollars.
I don't see it that way. If Iraq was a vassal of Iran, Iran wouldn't need militant groups operating there and Iraq would have kicked out US forces long ago.
As soon as US forces left, the process of crumbling began. Right now Iraq is little more than a proxy or extension of Iran where IRGC can operate with free will.
They haven't left, Iraq wants them there to keep the Iranian militants in check. US removed Saddam for them.
The likes of Saddam & Gaddafi might be objectively terrible people, but they knew how to keep this part of the world under control. ISIS would've been nipped in the bud if Saddam or his successors were around. Going into Iraq for the second time on the cooked-up pretext of WMDs was a stupid move.
Saddam and Gaddafi wouldn't have lasted the internet/mobile phone era. This is why I say removing Saddam and stabilising Iraq would have been 10x easier in 1991. Trouble is far too easy to cause now thanks to the internet. Let's not forget that the Syrian and Libyan civil wars started on their own before any intervention.
 
Over 20 years that's pittance. Current US GDP is $29.168tr, sums like $52bn are only ~0.17% of that. Policing in the US costs >4x that.

The point is that the spending was useless. Nobody was able to show how this conflict advanced American interests anymore.

That's why nobody could put forward a compelling counter-argument when the decision to leave was taken.


I can also show you how Biden's family supposedly received laundered money from a CCP-linked Chinese company.


Does this mean the CCP colluded with the Democrats to steal the 2020 election from Trump. Motive? They didn't want Trump to continue his tariffs.

He focused on narrow popular issues with no decent big picture policy.

If the issues are big enough to make him POTUS, they're not narrow.

You sanction the export of oil products from China. Sure some countries might still take it, but much less.

If they could afford to do that, they could've done that to India as well. The truth is, EU needed to buy refined petroleum products from somewhere on the cheap. That's why nobody was willing to sanction India even though everyone knew the refined product we were exporting was made out of Russian crude.

And no, they didn't do it because of others. EU itself has been the biggest customer of refined products from India so that theory doesn't hold. They did it for themselves.

Buying their oil means jack shit. Russia is dependent on China's financing and dual purpose equipment. If you control the purse strings, you control the country.

If they have alternative sources of energy revenue (remember, EU never stopped buying Russian piped gas either), the Chinese would not control their purse strings. They can choose to take the cheap Chinese financing where they want, but if CCP starts asking for too much in return (like taking over the Russian far-east) then Moscow has options.

The EU won't follow suit. They've already stated that no sanctions will be lifted whilst Russian boots remain in Ukraine. Putin will have to be long gone before they change their mind on that. They're also conscious of the fact that a loose hand with Russia is what caused this mess in the first place - maximum sanctions should have been applied from the moment Russia entered Crimea. If they make the same mistake again, it would only cause more such problems in the future. Trump, on the other hand, is a f*cking idiot, so who knows.

It all depends on how the negotiations go. The Trump team has just sent out the first feelers.


The European industrial base is growing but I doubt Trump could stop the EU buying US weapons. Other elected representatives and lobbyists would metaphorically kick his head in if he tried.

He won't - he'll encourage that in fact. But he'll stop the transfer of weapons (for free) to Ukraine that's happening now from the US. And he might cut down on the economic aid as well, but humanitarian (food, medicines etc) is likely to continue.

So Europe is gonna have to step in to fill the gap created by removal of US economic aid, AND they're gonna have to BUY all the hardware that's now coming from US and they're gonna have to buy it with EU money only.

That's how you get to the double figure.

Is $46bn/year a lot to make up for the entire EU and the rest of NATO + Aus + Japan + SK. Again, it's about down in low tenths of a % of GDP.

It's not - that's why I said Europe can (and needs to) finance this war by itself. But that's assuming the peace deal doesn't stipulate any conditions requiring European countries to cease financing the war in return for getting Russia to stand down from advancing any further.

If there's no peace deal, and Trump simply leaves & tells EU and Russia to figure this out between themselves, that's a different matter. But I don't think he'll do that.

It's officially against international law but if I'm playing football and the other team pulls out machetes, I see no logic in continuing to follow the rules of the game.

It's possible that European/NATO leaders are afraid that there'll be retaliatory assassinations (against themselves, their families, business leaders etc) if they get involved in taking out Putin.

They're big picture policies that low brows can't see. Quantum physics makes sense to quantum physicists but not to burger flippers, that doesn't make it misguided. Stop illegal immigration however appeals to everyone and Trump pretty much won the campaign on that alone.

You can pursue big picture policies only if the basics are taken care of. The problem was, the people who were pushing the globalist/interventionist agenda were also the same people who were pushing uncontrolled immigration, child gender-reassignment surgeries, critical race theory, and a whole bunch of other fringe woke crap that simply did not sit well with the common, moderate voters.

The people who benefited from the interventionist elements in the US bureaucracy (like the Europeans) made the mistake of hitching their wagon to the fringe leftists.

How is it freeloading when we're paying more per capita than the US is?

That's now.

What about all the decades Europe spent gorging on Russian energy? It was that which financed the build-up of Russia's war machine. After the Soviet collapse Russia was in no shape to invade anyone. From that, the fact they felt ready to take on Georgia, then Crimea, then Ukraine - was all because of the immense revenues they generated selling energy to Europe.

And Europe only felt comfortable doing that, along with spending very little on defence budgets, and allowing their militaries to wither away, was ONLY because they thought they're safe under the US umbrella so need not bother.

That's freeloading. They'd never have done that if US wasn't there for them.

Russia expanded first. Early-90s - Transnistria, South Ossetia and Abkhazia Wars. That broke the rules. But for the Chechen War we'd have seen more little pseudo separatist states like that popping up, possibly even in the Baltics. Having seen that we weren't going to take their word anymore.


Ah, so you admit it's not Putin that's the problem, it's Russia itself.

Anyway, the Budapest Memo was AFTER all these conflicts concluded.

Plus no word was given about allowing countries to join NATO, both sides agreed not to invade any of the buffer states.

Russia claims there was a word of mouth agreement not to expand. Of course, there was no written agreement - and that's why expansion did take place.

Much like the word given to Ukraine that they won't be invaded if they give up their nukes. Empty promises.

Those were times where empires and conquests were normal. These days they're not normal, unless you're Russsia. Russia also invaded a lot of Europe, in fact it invaded everything from Novgorod to Alaska. People often criticise Western Europeans for invading North America, but think about what would have happened if they hadn't given that Russia annexed Alaska in the 18th century. Russia/USSR would have conquered North America and South America, achieved world dominance and Berlinda Carlisle's song would have been renamed "Hell is a place on Earth."

Times change, but geography doesn't.

Combination of fear and a minority with guns. Same for DPRK.

With guns and some tanks they would be mor ethan enough.

That's what the Americans told themselves before going into Iraq & Afghanistan.

Israel has already won its country is not at risk, it's basically pest control at this point.

Most of their population in concentrated in the narrow strip of land between the Mediterranean & West Bank. It's only about 70km long and less than 20km wide. A single nuke could devastate the country irrevocably.

Their fear is justified.

I don't see it that way. If Iraq was a vassal of Iran, Iran wouldn't need militant groups operating there and Iraq would have kicked out US forces long ago.

They haven't left, Iraq wants them there to keep the Iranian militants in check. US removed Saddam for them.

Token presence.

Iran has broad freedom to operate by proxy in Iraq, and sometimes even directly.


Right now US & Israel are worried that the next attack could come from Iranian militias operating within Iraq's territory:


Saddam and Gaddafi wouldn't have lasted the internet/mobile phone era. This is why I say removing Saddam and stabilising Iraq would have been 10x easier in 1991. Trouble is far too easy to cause now thanks to the internet. Let's not forget that the Syrian and Libyan civil wars started on their own before any intervention.

They would have adapted, like Assad continues to do.

The US invasions/attacks only achieved the goal of creating a critical mass of Islamists opposed to Western interests.
 
The point is that the spending was useless. Nobody was able to show how this conflict advanced American interests anymore.

That's why nobody could put forward a compelling counter-argument when the decision to leave was taken.
Fixing a country, having a friendly country on side, spreading of democratic values, improved border situation for India.
I can also show you how Biden's family supposedly received laundered money from a CCP-linked Chinese company.


Does this mean the CCP colluded with the Democrats to steal the 2020 election from Trump. Motive? They didn't want Trump to continue his tariffs.
Biden's son is a criminal, that doesn't make him a criminal, unlike Trump.

If the issues are big enough to make him POTUS, they're not narrow.
They are it's just that the majority of voters are not big picture people. I mean, take 18-25 year-olds, they know absolutely f*ck-all about politics but are easily triggered by sound-bytes.
If they could afford to do that, they could've done that to India as well. The truth is, EU needed to buy refined petroleum products from somewhere on the cheap. That's why nobody was willing to sanction India even though everyone knew the refined product we were exporting was made out of Russian crude.
And no, they didn't do it because of others. EU itself has been the biggest customer of refined products from India so that theory doesn't hold. They did it for themselves.
It's because they didn't want to sanction two countries at once.
If they have alternative sources of energy revenue (remember, EU never stopped buying Russian piped gas either), the Chinese would not control their purse strings. They can choose to take the cheap Chinese financing where they want, but if CCP starts asking for too much in return (like taking over the Russian far-east) then Moscow has options.
They have massive debt to China following this war and are very much dependent on China for foreign currency.
It all depends on how the negotiations go. The Trump team has just sent out the first feelers.

It's just a big gay surrender like any good Russian puppet would ask for. What the Senate and Congress will agree to is a different matter.
He won't - he'll encourage that in fact. But he'll stop the transfer of weapons (for free) to Ukraine that's happening now from the US. And he might cut down on the economic aid as well, but humanitarian (food, medicines etc) is likely to continue.

So Europe is gonna have to step in to fill the gap created by removal of US economic aid, AND they're gonna have to BUY all the hardware that's now coming from US and they're gonna have to buy it with EU money only.

That's how you get to the double figure.
No, US economic aid is very little as I've already shown, it's nearly all military and you have the individual member states as well as the EU itself. It's 50%, very doable.
It's not - that's why I said Europe can (and needs to) finance this war by itself. But that's assuming the peace deal doesn't stipulate any conditions requiring European countries to cease financing the war in return for getting Russia to stand down from advancing any further.

If there's no peace deal, and Trump simply leaves & tells EU and Russia to figure this out between themselves, that's a different matter. But I don't think he'll do that.
If the EU and rest of NATO doesn't agree to it, the peace deal is dead anyway. It's our security that's most at risk, and a Russia that keeps creeping forward isn't permissible.
It's possible that European/NATO leaders are afraid that there'll be retaliatory assassinations (against themselves, their families, business leaders etc) if they get involved in taking out Putin.
If they actually take out Putin there should be a marked reduction in such, since he orders them all.
You can pursue big picture policies only if the basics are taken care of. The problem was, the people who were pushing the globalist/interventionist agenda were also the same people who were pushing uncontrolled immigration, child gender-reassignment surgeries, critical race theory, and a whole bunch of other fringe woke crap that simply did not sit well with the common, moderate voters.
Yup, that I agree on. They left cracks and a turd leaked through.
That's now.

What about all the decades Europe spent gorging on Russian energy? It was that which financed the build-up of Russia's war machine. After the Soviet collapse Russia was in no shape to invade anyone. From that, the fact they felt ready to take on Georgia, then Crimea, then Ukraine - was all because of the immense revenues they generated selling energy to Europe.

And Europe only felt comfortable doing that, along with spending very little on defence budgets, and allowing their militaries to wither away, was ONLY because they thought they're safe under the US umbrella so need not bother.
Dependence on Russia was certainly a mistake, which is more the reason to avoid it and why EU sanctions are unlikely to be lifted in any case. Which is why I said Russia was cooked long-term from the off. Sanctions won't be removed by the EU and the best Trump can manage is removing them for 4 years.
That's freeloading. They'd never have done that if US wasn't there for them.
It's not freeloading if you're buying. And the US umbrella wasn't the largest factor. The reductions in relative defence spending (% of GDP) happened across all of NATO including the US most of all after 1991. They misjudged the times they were living in.

1731685240792.png

Ah, so you admit it's not Putin that's the problem, it's Russia itself.
It's mostly Putin. The early 1990s affairs could be dismissed as a consequence of the fall of the USSR but Putin's policies since 2008 indicate he has colonial plans. If it was about security he wouldn't be stealing tax revenue and resources from the land he annexed.
Anyway, the Budapest Memo was AFTER all these conflicts concluded.
Absolutely, it underlines the moral obligation to defend Ukraine or at very least help it defend itself.
Russia claims there was a word of mouth agreement not to expand. Of course, there was no written agreement - and that's why expansion did take place.
There was a word of mouth agreement by both sides not to expanding by force, which only Russia broke. NATO doesn't need to invade, there are economic and security reasons why people join, it's a large carrot, Russia is only a stick for beating people, which ironically persuades more people to join NATO.
Much like the word given to Ukraine that they won't be invaded if they give up their nukes. Empty promises.
Only if Trump makes it such.
Times change, but geography doesn't.
Actually is does not that the statement has any relevance anyway. Comparing modern Western European countries with 18th and 19th cnetury version of the same is just oil and water, they don't mix. Trying to use yester-century logic as an excuse for needing to annex a neighbour is BS. Ironically, NATO could validly use that excuse for annexing Belarus since Russia is the only European country still exhibiting aggression in Europe in the 21st century.
That's what the Americans told themselves before going into Iraq & Afghanistan.
As I pointed out 11 deaths per year is not a war it's a crime stat, the war was won, all they had to do was stay and police the peace. More Russians than that die every 10 minutes in Ukraine.
Most of their population in concentrated in the narrow strip of land between the Mediterranean & West Bank. It's only about 70km long and less than 20km wide. A single nuke could devastate the country irrevocably.

Their fear is justified.
Yes but they also have nukes and a single 750kt nuke from a Jericho III on Tehran would kill ~2 million instantly. Besides, bombing Gaza and Lebanon does nothing to stop Iran developing nukes and actually makes other Arab states more likely to side with Iran risking major geopolitical shifts and massive economic turbulence, which is likely why Russia and Iran used Hamas that way. It should be that war Trump focuses on ending. I support Israel but it should end the war and keep the Philadelphia strip even if it means not getting the hostages back.
Token presence.
Token presence that keeps killing Iranian militia groups.

Iran has broad freedom to operate by proxy in Iraq, and sometimes even directly.

Not so much:

They can hang about but they are no threat to overturning the current government.
Right now US & Israel are worried that the next attack could come from Iranian militias operating within Iraq's territory:

Well the Iranian militias will get killed again if they do.
They would have adapted, like Assad continues to do.

The US invasions/attacks only achieved the goal of creating a critical mass of Islamists opposed to Western interests.
Assad is being propped up by the Russians, without them he'd have fallen long ago. Islamists have always been opposed to western interests, they wouldn't be Islamists otherwise. US intervention only began long after the civil wars had begun.
 



Well Paddy , my man Irish Joe has done it again. Pulled off another con this time in the form of a parting shot. Does this man ever fail to surprise you when you least expect it ?

I feel extremely sad & depressed my hero Irish Joe will be quitting the WH but then I'm consoled by the fact that his replacement Carrot Top will be in for 4 years hopefully with never a dull moment beginning with a cease fire in Ukraine which should be enough to fill the likes of you with impotent rage - the same as being severely constipated which should duly come out here as it already is. Pun unintended . @BMD

Meanwhile this happened . Black b̶o̶o̶t̶y̶ sorry beauty lover & former taxi driver is moving out , along with The Boss , just not with him.


Amerimutts love being entertained & are easily entertained , much like me speaking of which performance artist in the House , AOC has dropped her pronouns . You think she'd be cancelled sweetie ? @Innominate

 
Fixing a country, having a friendly country on side, spreading of democratic values, improved border situation for India.

Failed on all counts, congratulations.

Anyway, India has managed to cultivate ties with several factions in the Taliban by itself and as of now the relationship with the government is good - they even keep poking Pakistan from time to time with skirmishes, keeping Pak's attention divided between two fronts.

If all else fails, we retain a good relationship with the former NA and Masood's son and we still retain Farkhor AFB from where they can be resupplied if it comes down to it.

All the gear Biden left behind makes matters worse for us, not better. A lot of that stuff (mostly firearms, thermal sights & night vision) has already found its way into hands of terrorists coming into Kashmir, thank you very much for that).

They are it's just that the majority of voters are not big picture people. I mean, take 18-25 year-olds, they know absolutely f*ck-all about politics but are easily triggered by sound-bytes.

It doesn't take wisdom of the ages to know that young adults are dumb. So Democrats must answer why they continued to enact policies that alienated so many young people - especially men.

1706513924839.jpg


They want to push interventionist ideals & keep wars going - all the while alienating the one demographic you need on your side if you want to go to war: Young Men.

Make it make sense. The current liberal discourse has literally nothing to offer males. Unless they're gay or trans.

It's because they didn't want to sanction two countries at once.

Umm...

They have massive debt to China following this war and are very much dependent on China for foreign currency.

They can pay off any debt by selling them oil, gas & other minerals. They would ONLY run into a problem if the only customer willing to buy from them is China - because then China can dictate terms with regard to what kind of payment they want.

If the EU and rest of NATO doesn't agree to it, the peace deal is dead anyway. It's our security that's most at risk, and a Russia that keeps creeping forward isn't permissible.

If EU/NATO (minus US) step up to finance & resupply the war all by themselves, I doubt Trump would have a problem with it.

If they actually take out Putin there should be a marked reduction in such, since he orders them all.

Any successor would be under immense pressure to retaliate.

Dependence on Russia was certainly a mistake, which is more the reason to avoid it and why EU sanctions are unlikely to be lifted in any case. Which is why I said Russia was cooked long-term from the off. Sanctions won't be removed by the EU and the best Trump can manage is removing them for 4 years.

As of today - EU continues to buy huge amounts of Russian piped gas & LNG. And that's when the war is still going on. I'll tell you, when NordStream-2 blew up, the loudest cries were probably heard in Berlin.


"Despite the European Union’s concerted efforts to reduce reliance on Russian natural gas following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, EU imports from Russia surged by 27% year-on-year in the first half of 2024 and sent EUR 8.7 bn in revenues to Russia."

It's not freeloading if you're buying. And the US umbrella wasn't the largest factor.

It's freeloading in the sense that you do things you wouldn't do otherwise as you expect others to fight your wars for you (and pay for building up the war machine they would need to fight that war).

I mean, imagine living on the northern european plain - perfect tank country - and not even having 300 operational MBTs. You only do that when you think you can freeload off of the 4,000 Abrams that the US taxpayer paid to build for America's army - which you count on coming to your aid in case you're in trouble.

Look at Asia with regard to China. There's a reason India refuses to join RCEP or BRI. But countries who are US treaty allies like Japan, SK, Thailand, Australia etc. jumped head-first into RCEP, knowing full well they cannot compete with Chinese imports and there would be a huge trade imbalance which can be weaponized by CCP.

Some US allies like South Korea, Philippines & Thailand (not to mention a whole bunch of Eastern European NATO states) even went & joined BRI. At least the NATO states I can understand, they're too far away for China to threaten them directly but the reason countries like SK, Thailand, Singapore, Philippines etc. feel comfortable in signing up to these ventures (which strengthen & enrich the PRC while compromising domestic economic health, security measures & increase exposure to Chinese interests) is ONLY because they feel they can rely on the US to come to their aid in case something goes wrong as a result of their miscalculations.

Same thing you see in Europe vis-a-vis energy ties with Russia.

Countries that do not count on others (like India) adopt policies that are far more vigilant. What Europe needs to do now is much the same, like what I said before:

"...reasses & realign their policies and posture in line with what their own national capabilities are - rather than on the basis of what the alliance's capabilities are."

The reductions in relative defence spending (% of GDP) happened across all of NATO including the US most of all after 1991. They misjudged the times they were living in.

View attachment 38074

I didn't mean just the % of spending, but the quality of it too. Germany on paper has a considerable budget of $66bn, but the state of its military or its combat readiness does not befit that of a country that spends 66bn on defence. More like a country that spends 10bn or less. Most of the funds go to BS programs like gender diversity studies in the military instead of building actual capabilities.

Look at the state of their MBT fleet as mentioned above.

It's mostly Putin. The early 1990s affairs could be dismissed as a consequence of the fall of the USSR but Putin's policies since 2008 indicate he has colonial plans. If it was about security he wouldn't be stealing tax revenue and resources from the land he annexed.

A hostile or potentially hostile military positioned less than 500km from your capital with no geographical barriers in between would make anybody nervous.

How would folks in Washington DC feel if the Rust Belt states were all Warsaw Pact countries?

Absolutely, it underlines the moral obligation to defend Ukraine or at very least help it defend itself.

Maybe I misread but the Memo doesn't call for anything like that - unless Ukraine was the victim of a nuclear attack.

There was a word of mouth agreement by both sides not to expanding by force, which only Russia broke. NATO doesn't need to invade, there are economic and security reasons why people join, it's a large carrot, Russia is only a stick for beating people, which ironically persuades more people to join NATO.

You do what you need to do with what you have. Same for Russians.

It didn't matter if NATO expansion was through force or not - the end result was the same, NATO military posture was getting closer & closer to Moscow.

The key issue is that there was no need to bring new countries under the military alliance. Deterrence against an attack on Western Europe was already secured. If they wanted to help ex-Soviet states economically, they could've just made them members of EU. No need to expand NATO. It was only done with the express purpose of backing Russia into a corner - so that they would lash out & invade someone which would then set the cash registers at the US military-industrial complex ringing for years.

Actually is does not that the statement has any relevance anyway. Comparing modern Western European countries with 18th and 19th cnetury version of the same is just oil and water, they don't mix. Trying to use yester-century logic as an excuse for needing to annex a neighbour is BS. Ironically, NATO could validly use that excuse for annexing Belarus since Russia is the only European country still exhibiting aggression in Europe in the 21st century.

Not saying they would do that now - but in 20 or 30 years, who knows what kind of leaders Europe would have. After the German capitulation following the war to end all wars, nobody predicted that someone like Hitler would come up.

And there are still people alive today who saw it all happen. It wasn't that long ago.

As I pointed out 11 deaths per year is not a war it's a crime stat, the war was won, all they had to do was stay and police the peace. More Russians than that die every 10 minutes in Ukraine.

The point is, nobody can guarantee that US would be there forever, and the minute they leave, these countries would be back to doing what they do.

Yes but they also have nukes and a single 750kt nuke from a Jericho III on Tehran would kill ~2 million instantly.

The cost of a life is much cheaper in Iran than it is in Israel. Even after a nuking, invading Iran would be difficult. But if a single nuke got through (doesn't even have to be a thermonuke, a simple U or Pu bomb is enough), the Jewish state would be finished.

The stakes are just too high. Even a dirty bomb launched by non-state actors can cause irrevocable devastation.

Besides, bombing Gaza and Lebanon does nothing to stop Iran developing nukes and actually makes other Arab states more likely to side with Iran risking major geopolitical shifts and massive economic turbulence, which is likely why Russia and Iran used Hamas that way. It should be that war Trump focuses on ending. I support Israel but it should end the war and keep the Philadelphia strip even if it means not getting the hostages back.

Well, stopping the fighting isn't going to make Iran renege on its holy war goal of finishing off Israel. Only way to fix that problem for good is a multi-year bombing campaign that totally takes out the Iranian clerical leadership, followed by funding & arming of various non-Persian ethnic militias (significant numbers of Azeris, Kurds & Arabs in Iran) to carve out their own sovereign states from Iran.

But I must admit, I don't think Trump has the long-term strategic vision to make that happen.

Assad is being propped up by the Russians, without them he'd have fallen long ago. Islamists have always been opposed to western interests, they wouldn't be Islamists otherwise. US intervention only began long after the civil wars had begun.

The 2003 invasion was the event that principally destabilized the Middle East. All the Arab Springs started afterwards.
 
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Well Paddy , my man Irish Joe has done it again. Pulled off another con this time in the form of a parting shot. Does this man ever fail to surprise you when you least expect it ?

I feel extremely sad & depressed my hero Irish Joe will be quitting the WH but then I'm consoled by the fact that his replacement Carrot Top will be in for 4 years hopefully with never a dull moment beginning with a cease fire in Ukraine which should be enough to fill the likes of you with impotent rage - the same as being severely constipated which should duly come out here as it already is. Pun unintended . @BMD

Meanwhile this happened . Black b̶o̶o̶t̶y̶ sorry beauty lover & former taxi driver is moving out , along with The Boss , just not with him.


Amerimutts love being entertained & are easily entertained , much like me speaking of which performance artist in the House , AOC has dropped her pronouns . You think she'd be cancelled sweetie ? @Innominate

Oh Gunga Din you still haven't gotten my water. Glad to see I'm still living rent free in your punjabeebengali head. 😘
 
Oh Gunga Din you still haven't gotten my water. Glad to see I'm still living rent free in your punjabeebengali head. 😘
Sigh ! I attempted to engage you in polite conversation . Looks like you're too juvenile to have mature conversations. So ...

How come you're still up at 12:30 am on a Friday night sweetie ? No dates ? Your ma would be thrilled you're at home with your legs together instead of being a bad *censored* which brings me to an important point.

You go about spreading your legs everywhere & one of these days I'd really have to get water for you - hot water as your water would've broken .

Pls spare me the faggoty icons sweetie unless you want me to own them . Ja ? 😊

Meanwhile in other news , this is what's happening in the most advanced state of the most advanced country in the world . We know of 3rd world countries with better polling mechanisms . What's it like in San Diego County sweetie ?

 
Failed on all counts, congratulations.
Failed only because withdrawal. Withdrawal was the error.
Anyway, India has managed to cultivate ties with several factions in the Taliban by itself and as of now the relationship with the government is good - they even keep poking Pakistan from time to time with skirmishes, keeping Pak's attention divided between two fronts.
The Taliban is fragmented. Some factions reasonabvle, some insane.
If all else fails, we retain a good relationship with the former NA and Masood's son and we still retain Farkhor AFB from where they can be resupplied if it comes down to it.

All the gear Biden left behind makes matters worse for us, not better. A lot of that stuff (mostly firearms, thermal sights & night vision) has already found its way into hands of terrorists coming into Kashmir, thank you very much for that).
Like I said, withdrawal was the error, which was Trump's move.
It doesn't take wisdom of the ages to know that young adults are dumb. So Democrats must answer why they continued to enact policies that alienated so many young people - especially men.

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They want to push interventionist ideals & keep wars going - all the while alienating the one demographic you need on your side if you want to go to war: Young Men.

Make it make sense. The current liberal discourse has literally nothing to offer males. Unless they're gay or trans.
Don't disagree but that isn't big picture politics, it's inward looking.
Yes.
They can pay off any debt by selling them oil, gas & other minerals. They would ONLY run into a problem if the only customer willing to buy from them is China - because then China can dictate terms with regard to what kind of payment they want.
Oil revenue is down, Russian population is down, interest rates are huge, inflation high.
If EU/NATO (minus US) step up to finance & resupply the war all by themselves, I doubt Trump would have a problem with it.
That's not the way NATo should work though, especially not after rest of NATO backed US in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Any successor would be under immense pressure to retaliate.
No. They might well be glad of it, such is the climate of fear under Putin.
As of today - EU continues to buy huge amounts of Russian piped gas & LNG. And that's when the war is still going on. I'll tell you, when NordStream-2 blew up, the loudest cries were probably heard in Berlin.


"Despite the European Union’s concerted efforts to reduce reliance on Russian natural gas following Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine, EU imports from Russia surged by 27% year-on-year in the first half of 2024 and sent EUR 8.7 bn in revenues to Russia."
Nope.

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It's freeloading in the sense that you do things you wouldn't do otherwise as you expect others to fight your wars for you (and pay for building up the war machine they would need to fight that war).
US reduced defence spending too. NATO backed US up in Afghanistan and Iraq - was that freeloading?
I mean, imagine living on the northern european plain - perfect tank country - and not even having 300 operational MBTs. You only do that when you think you can freeload off of the 4,000 Abrams that the US taxpayer paid to build for America's army - which you count on coming to your aid in case you're in trouble.
EU has 5,000 MBTs.
Look at Asia with regard to China. There's a reason India refuses to join RCEP or BRI. But countries who are US treaty allies like Japan, SK, Thailand, Australia etc. jumped head-first into RCEP, knowing full well they cannot compete with Chinese imports and there would be a huge trade imbalance which can be weaponized by CCP.
India couldn't compete.
Some US allies like South Korea, Philippines & Thailand (not to mention a whole bunch of Eastern European NATO states) even went & joined BRI. At least the NATO states I can understand, they're too far away for China to threaten them directly but the reason countries like SK, Thailand, Singapore, Philippines etc. feel comfortable in signing up to these ventures (which strengthen & enrich the PRC while compromising domestic economic health, security measures & increase exposure to Chinese interests) is ONLY because they feel they can rely on the US to come to their aid in case something goes wrong as a result of their miscalculations.

Same thing you see in Europe vis-a-vis energy ties with Russia.
In both cases they did it for their own economic benefit.
Countries that do not count on others (like India) adopt policies that are far more vigilant. What Europe needs to do now is much the same, like what I said before:

"...reasses & realign their policies and posture in line with what their own national capabilities are - rather than on the basis of what the alliance's capabilities are."
Which means maintaining current sanctions as I said.
I didn't mean just the % of spending, but the quality of it too. Germany on paper has a considerable budget of $66bn, but the state of its military or its combat readiness does not befit that of a country that spends 66bn on defence. More like a country that spends 10bn or less. Most of the funds go to BS programs like gender diversity studies in the military instead of building actual capabilities.

Look at the state of their MBT fleet as mentioned above.
5,000 MBTs in EU as also mentioned above.
A hostile or potentially hostile military positioned less than 500km from your capital with no geographical barriers in between would make anybody nervous.

How would folks in Washington DC feel if the Rust Belt states were all Warsaw Pact countries?
So that's why Russia is stealing resources eh? You mean like Cuba or Kaliningrad?

For 45 years they were. Like I said, NATO has no record of aggression in Europe post WWII and the USSR/Russia was a joint aggressor with the Nazis in 1939.
Maybe I misread but the Memo doesn't call for anything like that - unless Ukraine was the victim of a nuclear attack.
Yes it does.
You do what you need to do with what you have. Same for Russians.
There is no need for what they're doing, don't lie to yourself.
It didn't matter if NATO expansion was through force or not - the end result was the same, NATO military posture was getting closer & closer to Moscow.
The end result is not the same, most notably the lack of death and destruction.
The key issue is that there was no need to bring new countries under the military alliance. Deterrence against an attack on Western Europe was already secured. If they wanted to help ex-Soviet states economically, they could've just made them members of EU. No need to expand NATO. It was only done with the express purpose of backing Russia into a corner - so that they would lash out & invade someone which would then set the cash registers at the US military-industrial complex ringing for years.
The war in Ukraine is primarily about blocking Ukraine from EU membership not NATO membership. Russia knows NATO would not attack, that poses no threat, but Ukraine joining NATO and gaining a higher GDP/Capita than Russia like Poland did, threatens their appearance of competent management and would cause emmigration from Russia. It would also pull Ukraine out of Moscow's economic sphere.

In 2010 Yanukovych promised to work towards EU integration. In 2013 he met with Putin and suddenly said he was going to join the EEU instead. This resulted in mass protests and you know the rest. It was all about the EU, NATO had nothing to do with it, that's just a soundbyte the Kremlin uses for more effective propaganda.
Not saying they would do that now - but in 20 or 30 years, who knows what kind of leaders Europe would have. After the German capitulation following war to end all wars, nobody predicted that someone like Hitler would come up.

And there are still people alive today who saw it all happen. It wasn't that long ago.
There is zero chance of another Hitler in Europe, aside from Putin himself, if you count that as Europe.
The point is, nobody can guarantee that US would be there forever, and the minute they leave, these countries would be back to doing what they do.
They wouldn't because they'd have died 50 years beforehand.
The cost of a life is much cheaper in Iran than it is in Israel. Even after a nuking, invading Iran would be difficult. But if a single nuke got through (doesn't even have to be a thermonuke, a simple U or Pu bomb is enough), the Jewish state would be finished.

The stakes are just too high. Even a dirty bomb launched by non-state actors can cause irrevocable devastation.
Israel has 90 nukes, that's enough for every city in Iran.
Well, stopping the fighting isn't going to make Iran renege on its holy war goal of finishing off Israel. Only way to fix that problem for good is a multi-year bombing campaign that totally takes out the Iranian clerical leadership, followed by funding & arming of various non-Persian ethnic militias (significant numbers of Azeris, Kurds & Arabs in Iran) to carve out their own sovereign states from Iran.

But I must admit, I don't think Trump has the long-term strategic vision to make that happen.
There's no way of undoing the Iranian problem. All Trump will do is help them gain more favour internally and regionally and cause massive instability. It would be better to encourage the UN to view Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis as extensions of Iran and hold Iran accountable internationally for their actions.

The 2003 invasion was the event that principally destabilized the Middle East. All the Arab Springs started afterwards.
Nah, proliferation of mobile phones and the internet allowed individuals to communicate and organise in a way previously impossible.
 
Failed only because withdrawal. Withdrawal was the error.

The Taliban is fragmented. Some factions reasonabvle, some insane.

Like I said, withdrawal was the error, which was Trump's move.

Some would say failure to make any headway (largely due to tackling the symptoms & not the cause/source) was the reason why withdrawal was even considered.

That's not the way NATo should work though, especially not after rest of NATO backed US in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Makes you consider Kissinger's line doesn't it?

"It's dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal".

No. They might well be glad of it, such is the climate of fear under Putin.

Yeah tell yourselves that.

Nope.

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What? I didn't say they didn't cut down on the imports at all - but it is true (even as your chart shows) that import of Russian gas & LNG continues to this day.


Count the operational ones. Anyway, several Eastern European states are rather good at maintaining sizeable militaries - the problem is with Western Europe - Germany in particular.

It's Germany that's supposed to be Europe's biggest economy - yet it's the one that doesn't even begin to pull its weight in military matters. It's the one with less than 300 operational MBTs.

India couldn't compete.

Nobody can compete. SE Asia has essentially turned into a dumping ground for Chinese imports, driving local companies out of business.


In both cases they did it for their own economic benefit.

Duh.

We're seeing the price being paid now aren't we? At least in Europe. Asia might yet get its reckoning.

So that's why Russia is stealing resources eh? You mean like Cuba or Kaliningrad?

Why wouldn't you seek to make up for the war losses by tapping resources in territories under your control?

The US did the same:



For 45 years they were. Like I said, NATO has no record of aggression in Europe post WWII and the USSR/Russia was a joint aggressor with the Nazis in 1939.

Somebody seems to have forgotten KFOR & Yugoslavia.

Was NATO the first one to have conducted aerial bombings in Europe after WW2 or am I mistaken?

The end result is not the same, most notably the lack of death and destruction.

The Russian takeover of Crimea was bloodless. Does that make it legitimate?

The war in Ukraine is primarily about blocking Ukraine from EU membership not NATO membership. Russia knows NATO would not attack, that poses no threat, but Ukraine joining NATO and gaining a higher GDP/Capita than Russia like Poland did, threatens their appearance of competent management and would cause emmigration from Russia. It would also pull Ukraine out of Moscow's economic sphere.

A military alliance that indiscriminately bombed civilians in Yugoslavia poses no threat.

Right.

"...nine incidents were a result of attacks on non-military targets that Human Rights Watch believes were illegitimate. These include the headquarters of Serb Radio and Television in Belgrade, the New Belgrade heating plant, and seven bridges that were neither on major transportation routes nor had other military functions."

"Thirty-three incidents occurred as a result of attacks on targets in densely populated urban areas (including six in Belgrade)...In Nis, the use of cluster bombs was a decisive factor in civilian deaths in at least three incidents. Overall, cluster bomb use by the United States and Britain can be confirmed in seven incidents throughout Yugoslavia (another five are possible but unconfirmed); some ninety to 150 civilians died from the use of these weapons."

"On the basis of this investigation, Human Rights Watch has found that there were ninety separate incidents involving civilian deaths during the seventy-eight day bombing campaign. Some 500 Yugoslav civilians are known to have died in these incidents."



And I'm not even going into 2003 Iraq where NATO bombed thousands of civilians in an illegal war started on a cooked-up pretext.

Russia had every reason to be wary of NATO expansion eastwards.

There is zero chance of another Hitler in Europe,

You saw that in your crystal ball I suppose?

Israel has 90 nukes, that's enough for every city in Iran.

They cannot justify a pre-emptive strike and be anything other than a pariah state forever.

On the other hand, if they wait to be hit, they may not live to carry out a retaliatory strike.

There's no way of undoing the Iranian problem. All Trump will do is help them gain more favour internally and regionally and cause massive instability. It would be better to encourage the UN to view Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis as extensions of Iran and hold Iran accountable internationally for their actions.

The UN is a useless organization. It's completely penetrated by CCP as well as all kinds of Islamist influence groups.

UNRWA is basically a euphemism for Hamas at this point. All their infrastructure is Hamas infrastructure.

Nah, proliferation of mobile phones and the internet allowed individuals to communicate and organise in a way previously impossible.

Bombing the crap out of the existing power structure certainly doesn't help.