Future Combat Vehicle Programs (FRCV and FICV)

[randomradio]

It's not like we're getting newer versions like T-90M/MS. So there's no comparison between the two in terms of armour, firepower as has been amply proven during comparative trials some time back. Russia reportedly diverted some T-90S meant for India to Ukraine and we've all seen what happened to those.

As for maintenance, and logistics, this tank has been in service in numbers for nearly 25 years. Painstaking effort has gone into customization- including indigenous AC units, tank barrels, even armour panels - all tech spin-offs from Arjun. The Russians refused to part with ToT for key items. We didn't even buy Shtora APS to keep costs down.

Imo, there's nothing the T-90S has today (including the so-called Mk3 version shown recently) that an upgraded T-72 MKI wouldn't have brought to the table.

We decided to skip on T-90MS, instead chose a more modest upgrade.

T-72 can be upgraded T-90 standards in some ways, but the turret will have to be replaced, including autoloader, armor, gun, and barrel. Not worth the dough, that's why we decided to skip on T-90MS too.

 

[randomradio]

That's what I'm saying as well. But it needs to be phrased the right way.

Developing a Stryker-equivalent WhAP version within timeframe is not hard - it's very doable. But developing a US-equivalent support network within that timeframe is not doable.

And the support network is the reason we're going for Stryker - not cuz of the vehicle in of itself.

It's both. We can't develop a Stryker-equivalent in terms of electronics, the sensor package, and networking. Even if we can develop a Stryker-equivalent WhAP, it will be unproven for recon operations for a very long time, so the IA won't buy it anyway.

The very idea behind Stryker is it's been proven in combat plus it has a global logistics chain.

Trump loves the military. I don't think he'd cut spending on major programs unless the platform itself is deemed incapable of the mission anymore.

Gotta see how DOGE saves him money for the military budget.

I think Elon is actually making a play at acquiring one of the two big aerospace giants - Lockheed or Boeing - in the next few years, while Trump is still President. It would sure help him if their share price is pared down.

Doubt he can buy anything while he's part of the govt. They won't legally let him.

 

[randomradio]

What is the basis for this assumption that the Stryker for India is meant for "recon" and WhAP is meant for "maneuver" when the original tender was called WH AFV ( R & Sp)?

Secondary recce version with amphibious capabilities for the Pak border specifically and acts as a hedge against Stryker's failure.

 

[Parthu]

It's both. We can't develop a Stryker-equivalent in terms of electronics, the sensor package, and networking. Even if we can develop a Stryker-equivalent WhAP, it will be unproven for recon operations for a very long time, so the IA won't buy it anyway.

The very idea behind Stryker is it's been proven in combat plus it has a global logistics chain.

Well there we have a difference of opinion.

Doubt he can buy anything while he's part of the govt. They won't legally let him.

DOGE is not really a Department - it's just an advisory commission like USCIRF.

Musk & Ramaswamy aren't going to be Govt. employees, not officially. Besides, DOGE will dissolve by 2026 anyway - that's as per plan.

 

[Speedster1]

T-72 can be upgraded T-90 standards in some ways, but the turret will have to be replaced, including autoloader, armor, gun, and barrel. Not worth the dough, that's why we decided to skip on T-90MS too.

A common turret built around the T-90s 2A46 gun, DRDO sights + FCS and the already fully-indigenized V-92S2 engine can be used to standardize both fleets, simplify logistics and perhaps even obviate the need for FRCV (with add-on modular armour packages) until FMBT is ready. T-90 Mk3 is more of obsolescence-management than an upgrade, imo.

 

[randomradio]

Well there we have a difference of opinion.

Ultimately it depends on what the user wants, regardless of our opinions.

DOGE is not really a Department - it's just an advisory commission like USCIRF.

Musk & Ramaswamy aren't going to be Govt. employees, not officially. Besides, DOGE will dissolve by 2026 anyway - that's as per plan.

Yeah, hopefully they get it done. But I doubt Elon will be able to buy Boeing or LM that easily. Courts have even rejected his own payment from his own company.

 

[randomradio]

A common turret built around the T-90s 2A46 gun, DRDO sights + FCS and the already fully-indigenized V-92S2 engine can be used to standardize both fleets, simplify logistics and perhaps even obviate the need for FRCV (with add-on modular armour packages) until FMBT is ready. T-90 Mk3 is more of obsolescence-management than an upgrade, imo.

That opportunity is gone. More like the army rejected it.

Now the plan is to get new upgrades in and export them as and when they are replaced by FRCV.

 

[Speedster1]

That opportunity is gone. More like the army rejected it.

Pvt companies like L&T or Tata would have jumped at the chance to develop a local upgrade solution for old T-72s and break into a large export market.

 

[randomradio]

Pvt companies like L&T or Tata would have jumped at the chance to develop a local upgrade solution for old T-72s and break into a large export market.

They instead put their energies into FICV, WhAP, and FRCV.

 

[Speedster1]

They instead put their energies into FICV, WhAP, and FRCV.

Even if FRCV is ordered in a couple of years (a long shot given IA procurement track record over the years), it would take a decade plus for us to replace the T-72 fleet. An unified upgrade for T-72/90 would be cost-effective and reduce dependence on Russian OEMs for spares and support.

Personally, I don't see the IA going for the Leclerc or any other Western-origin tank. So the whole idea behind FRCV is moot. Just an obvious attempt to legitimize the procurement of T-90M or Armata (which isn't even in series production iirc). If FMBT is indeed based on the same chassis as Zorawar LT, then it won't be long before it is ready for trials. Probably inside of 2030.

 

[randomradio]

Even if FRCV is ordered in a couple of years (a long shot given IA procurement track record over the years), it would take a decade plus for us to replace the T-72 fleet. An unified upgrade for T-72/90 would be cost-effective and reduce dependence on Russian OEMs for spares and support.

Personally, I don't see the IA going for the Leclerc or any other Western-origin tank. So the whole idea behind FRCV is moot. Just an obvious attempt to legitimize the procurement of T-90M or Armata (which isn't even in series production iirc). If FMBT is indeed based on the same chassis as Zorawar LT, then it won't be long before it is ready for trials. Probably inside of 2030.

I doubt there's gonna be a change in turret though. Just new engine and electronics will do. About 900-1000 T-72s are gonna get an upgraded engine.

There is a T-72 tank upgraded with a T-90 turret called Atharva. The IA did it as an experiment to upgrade the T-72, but this version may end up being offered for export with the upgraded engine rather than use it ourselves. I guess the plan is to offer this upgrade to existing T-72 operators with Russia, along with selling our own phased out tanks. Perhaps it will be round-tripped back to Russia. Or the Russians will use the Indian line for exports, if it comes to that.

If we go by IA's RFI, they are looking at crew pod with 2/3 crew members. Only 4 known tanks fit the bill, France/Germany, SoKo, Russia, and DRDO, and only the latter 3 are less than 55T. DRDO's design has the advantage, although we need to see if they can adapt to the new PSQR. SoKo's may be the most advanced one though.

 

[Speedster1]

There is a T-72 tank upgraded with a T-90 turret called Atharva. The IA did it as an experiment to upgrade the T-72, but this version may end up being offered for export with the upgraded engine rather than use it ourselves. I guess the plan is to offer this upgrade to existing T-72 operators with Russia, along with selling our own phased out tanks. Perhaps it will be round-tripped back to Russia. Or the Russians will use the Indian line for exports, if it comes to that.

Doubt there'd be any takers for an unproven T-72+90 hybrid like Atharva. Most buyers would probably prefer something like VT-4. Ukraine has utterly exposed the fatal flaws of T-series tanks, at least as far as crew survivability goes. Russia routing tanks for export through India appears unlikely as it will come under the CAATSA radar, sooner than later.

SoKo's may be the most advanced one though.

That one is the dark horse. But it would put the FMBT project at risk since they're in broadly the same category.

 

[randomradio]

Doubt there'd be any takers for an unproven T-72+90 hybrid like Atharva. Most buyers would probably prefer something like VT-4. Ukraine has utterly exposed the fatal flaws of T-series tanks, at least as far as crew survivability goes. Russia routing tanks for export through India appears unlikely as it will come under the CAATSA radar, sooner than later.

There are hundreds of T-72s in the export market in need of upgrades. For India, the immediate goal could be to arm Armenia quickly with 100-200 upgraded tanks.

CAATSA won't affect this type of deal because the majority shareholder will be Indian.

That one is the dark horse. But it would put the FMBT project at risk since they're in broadly the same category.

As long as the best tank wins, that's the end of that. We need to increase costs for Pakistan significantly.

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1877343960164663423

 

[Speedster1]

As long as the best tank wins, that's the end of that.

Best is a relative term. FMBT is being built to IA specs from the ground up. Now that Zorawar is already in testing, it could only be a matter of time before FMBT is ready. There would be commonality advantages too.

With K2, you'd have to spend a ton on tropicalization for terrain/altitude a la K-9 redux. Also, K2 tips the scales in terms of cost at over $8m a pop.

 

[randomradio]

Best is a relative term. FMBT is being built to IA specs from the ground up.

That's entirely dependent on the new PSQR. FMBT was developed on a much older PSQR from more than a decade ago that called for a 40T tank. It later morphed into GNMBT and now NGMBT. DRDO could end up having to make a whole new design from earlier iterations.

Now that Zorawar is already in testing, it could only be a matter of time before FMBT is ready. There would be commonality advantages too.

Zorawar is only for 59 tanks. Unless it wins the light tank competition, it's not gonna matter. It has to beat BF's new design. OFB's gonna participate with Sprut-SD, with the same gun as the T-90's, a huge advantage, but it's unlikely to displace Zorawar.

With K2, you'd have to spend a ton on tropicalization for terrain/altitude a la K-9 redux. Also, K2 tips the scales in terms of cost at over $8m a pop.

The new SoKo tank is K3. Tropicalization is not expensive, but yeah, there's potential for DRDO to have a price advantage.

But if SoKo's design ends up as T1 and the difference is large, the army will simply junk the tender and go for a GTG.

 

[randomradio]

Retd ACM Bhadauria indirectly explaining why the army will be the first to indigenize.

What he says is exactly what the IA is doing in TGS, FRCV, FICV, and LT.

"Screw DPSUs, they must compete with private players who can involve foreign players." The IA wants to create a real defense ecosystem.

 

[Speedster1]

The new SoKo tank is K3.

K3 is still under development. Unlikely, it'll be considered over the in-service K2 imo.

K2 is the only new-gen tank likely to participate in FRCV. The others are all souped-up versions of legacy tanks.

If SoKo can offer a Biho SPAAG variant on the same chassis, the IA'd likely take them up on it.

It has to beat BF's new design

Per earlier reports, BF was supposed to unveil its LT design by Dec '24. I'm hoping they'd do so at AI '25.

BTW, Baba Kalyani is on record stating that BF will also be bidding for FCRV. It'd be interesting to see if they've come up with a clean-sheet MBT design with help from Paramount Group.

Don't believe Paramount has one in the product portfolio currently. As for the LT requirement, the Kaplan is the only other option which can be precluded because of the Turkey-Pak equation.

 

[Speedster1]

The IA wants to create a real defense ecosystem.

For this to happen, the armed forces must move away from their penchant for piecemeal orders. The IA is the worst offender in this regard.

Case in point: LT requirement split into 2.

No pvt company worth the name would want to invest in R&D or even local value addition on license-built products until they can prove RoI.