Putin to offer India mega undersea boost

[Speedster1]

Just words, nothing more. It's nothing more than political messaging, indicating there's room for other countries to involve themselves in the program without need for criticism or undercutting competition for political reasons, and both sides will have to compete and work alongside each other.

Quite the contrary. The requirements were always driven by the Navy which has both pro-Western and pro-Eastern lobbies. It's just that those requirements changed over time based on threat perceptions. If Russia had managed to develop a half-decent follow-on to the Kilo, we'd have signed for half a dozen by now.

Unfortunately for us, the Chinese seem to have acquired Lada class tech and gone on to build the Yuan/Hangor series around it. The hull shape is nearly identical. Mere coincidence? Probably not.

 

[randomradio]

Quite the contrary. The requirements were always driven by the Navy which has both pro-Western and pro-Eastern lobbies.

Yeah, I'd really like to know what that is 'cause the only thing of note is Russia has more weapons options, the West has functional AIP. That's all.

It's just a dumb political statement so someone in the US doesn't try and convince the MoD to not go for a piece of Russian tech 'cause Russia bad. It's only to fool bureaucrats.

For example, we want AMCA engine's hot core to be from the West, but we signed up with Klimov for TVC. You can bet someone on the other side will try and convince us otherwise, and our own bureaucrats will play that ridiculous game and put hurdles in our own program.

The submarines will be based on Indian-design philosophy.

 

[Speedster1]

Yeah, I'd really like to know what that is 'cause the only thing of note is Russia has more weapons options, the West has functional AIP. That's all.

It's just a dumb political statement so someone in the US doesn't try and convince the MoD to not go for a piece of Russian tech 'cause Russia bad. It's only to fool bureaucrats.

For example, we want AMCA engine's hot core to be from the West, but we signed up with Klimov for TVC. You can bet someone on the other side will try and convince us otherwise, and our own bureaucrats will play that ridiculous game and put hurdles in our own program.

The submarines will be based on Indian-design philosophy.

Just words, nothing more. It's nothing more than political messaging, indicating there's room for other countries to involve themselves in the program without need for criticism or undercutting competition for political reasons, and both sides will have to compete and work alongside each other.

To be clear, this goes all the way back to the 30 yr sub building plan of 2002-04. We were just beginning to come out of US sanctions. A major reason why the IN wanted 2 sub lines (rather than standardize on 1) was to hedge against the risk of Western arms embargoes.

To give you an example, the IAF was so wary about potential future sanctions that it had asked BAE to replace all US origin components on its Hawk AJT with UK-designed systems. This thinking would have influenced NHQ too.

Russia participated in both P-75 and P-75I with Amur family subs. It didn't make the cut for P-75 and it was assumed they'd be given the P-75I order. However, the proven AIP requirement turned out to be too much for them and they quit the contest.

The gentleman below may not be the best person to quote but he gives us a good summary of India's indigenous sub building saga.

Filling the submarine gap

www.ajaishukla.com

 

[_Anonymous_]

Can't find a link but IN officials are on record stating they wanted P-76 to imbibe the best elements from East and West. I take that to mean Western electronics and sturdy Russian (double-hulled) hull tech. However, AIP was a key requirement and Russia's Kristal-27E was far from mature. That was the end of the road for Russia as far as participating in P-75I was concerned.

We're already mfg the Arihant class of submarines based on Charlie class submarines which are double hulled . The Kilo class submarines were double hulled too. Beyond that there's nothing much the Russians have to offer as far as SSK technology goes.

Frankly I've not come across the Russian AIP system you've named. In any case they've lagged behind the west in various technologies since the collapse of the Soviet Union for they've focussed more on strategic systems . Conventional powered Russian submarines suffer from the same neglect that most of their other non strategic systems suffer from.

As I've mentioned before apart from certain exotic technology there's little Russia can offer us going ahead. I'd include the Su-57 in the same category. While it does hold promise & I'd been rooting for it along with a handful of members here a couple of years ago I now believe it's some way away from becoming a mature platform.

Then again even if it develops into a mature platform whether it is within the time span we require it to be & whether that maturity meets our requirements without major modifications is another question mark.

There are reports that a VLS plug is back on the table for P-75I (by I D R W so take it FWIW). That could add another ~100t to the displacement plus another ~100t for AIP, I'm guessing. If the IN also plans a swimmer delivery vehicle/lockout chamber for MARCOS that could mean a still bigger boat. The Pakistani Hangor SSK is ~3000t too so you can be sure a
Kalvari B2 will match or exceed that.

It's only RoK which initially accepted then reversed their decision to provide the VLS plug. In the event they either didn't make the cut or were booted out or withdrew .

I doubt ze Germans had any reservations to the VLS plug. The requirement was suspended only to get Navantia in as we'd otherwise land up with a single vendor system for Project 75 I.

In any case I don't see it as something ground breaking irrespective our SSKs have them or not for these submarines are expected to go up against Paxtan not China.

I suspect the IN is going in for it along with the foreign fuel cell AIP only to gain access to a different design philosophy & knowledge , test their requirements out on such submarines so as to validate it for when these are incorporated into our own indigenous Project 76.

We initially wanted British Oberon class SSK but has to settle for Foxtrots after being turned down. Then came the Kilo class.

That's true for a lot of systems. Our first port of call in the 1950s & 60s was always the British. It's when they kept turning us down for advanced systems followed by the Americans , we turned to the Russians.

After 1971, I'd say our main priority was building SSNs. Though ideally, we should have started building SSK too.

I think Russia competed with the Amur 1650 in P-75 but was not considered for P-75I.

Russian SSKs post Kilo class submarines are sub par for reasons given above.

 

[Optimist]

ICC is an American run clownshow. Nobody takes it seriously.

In that case, I would invite Putin to visit any one of the 125 counties with the ICC: Do we ignore Europe, who started it?

 

[randomradio]

To be clear, this goes all the way back to the 30 yr sub building plan of 2002-04. We were just beginning to come out of US sanctions. A major reason why the IN wanted 2 sub lines (rather than standardize on 1) was to hedge against the risk of Western arms embargoes.

To give you an example, the IAF was so wary about potential future sanctions that it had asked BAE to replace all US origin components on its Hawk AJT with UK-designed systems. This thinking would have influenced NHQ too.

Russia participated in both P-75 and P-75I with Amur family subs. It didn't make the cut for P-75 and it was assumed they'd be given the P-75I order. However, the proven AIP requirement turned out to be too much for them and they quit the contest.

The gentleman below may not be the best person to quote but he gives us a good summary of India's indigenous sub building saga.

Filling the submarine gap

www.ajaishukla.com

Russia wasn't a direct factor in our SSK programs. P-75 and P-75I, both 6+3, were always for 2 Western submarines 'cause they had the Kilo deal and were already deeply involved in our nuclear programs. They were never gonna get either project at the time. The last 6 were up for grabs, but they decided these will be indigenous.

 

[Speedster1]

Frankly I've not come across the Russian AIP system you've named. In any case they've lagged behind the west in various technologies since the collapse of the Soviet Union for they've focussed more on strategic systems . Conventional powered Russian submarines suffer from the same neglect that most of their other non strategic systems suffer from.

As I've mentioned before apart from certain exotic technology there's little Russia can offer us going ahead. I'd include the Su-57 in the same category. While it does hold promise & I'd been rooting for it along with a handful of members here a couple of years ago I now believe it's some way away from becoming a mature platform.

Russia is currently in the middle of a major import substitution prog - from CNCs to missile guidance chips now embargoed by the West. This comes at a time when Western countries seem to be eager to penalize India for supposedly "supporting Russia's war effort". I wonder if they will provide export approvals for any CNCs meant for use in an Indian Su-57 assembly line (based on end-use certificates, etc).

There is very little open source info on Kristal-27E. But here's a link that might be of interest.

Russia's USC to Test Air-Independent Propulsion AIP System at Sea on T

Russia's USC to Test Air-Independent Propulsion AIP System at Sea on Test Bed .a The development of a sea facility desi

armyrecognition.com

Su-57 has only just entered limited series production (probably in a bare-bones Mk1 avatar). As you'd pointed out earlier, it may not be ideal for an interim buy (esp given that Russia's production lines are geared to support the war effort atm.)

The 'full ToT' offer from Russia probably comes with certain caveats we don't know about. In any case, Russian bait and switch tactics are well known to us.

I suspect the IN is going in for it along with the foreign fuel cell AIP only to gain access to a different design philosophy & knowledge , test their requirements out on such submarines so as to validate it for when these are incorporated into our own indigenous Project 76

AIP, yes. Siemens is a world leader in AIP tech. What'd be interesting is to see though if we get non-magnetic hull tech that's currently export-controlled. Only used on German and Italian Type 212s afaik.

 

[jmaxwell_]

Su-57 has only just entered limited series production (probably in a bare-bones Mk1 avatar). As you'd pointed out earlier, it may not be ideal for an interim buy (esp given that Russia's production lines are geared to support the war effort atm.)

India would be seen as *weak* to now buy Su-57 when not treated as an equal partner for FGFA (basically Su-57 MKI). Unless Russia addresses the core issues on joint R&D, India should continue to increase efforts into AMCA.

On a related note, there is no immediate need to jump into buying 5th gen fighters from anyone -- First, China themselves are not ready to field J35s and we know how well the equipment they are willing to field performed in Op Sindoor. Second, India has already demonstrated willingness to use missile force, like taking out AWACS with S400, without needing airborne assets to do the job.

Instead, now is the time for incremental advancement in India's superior position with space tech (for ISR) and missile tech (for BVRs, hypersonics, etc.). And leverage the next 5yrs for building up drone force, find right EU partner for 5th gen aircraft, and finish AMCA development (particularly JV with some EU firm for engines), etc.

 

[jmaxwell_]

Sorry, please ignore above post. Thought I could edit/delete it to move it to the right IAF thread.

 

[Speedster1]

India would be seen as *weak* to now buy Su-57 when not treated as an equal partner for FGFA (basically Su-57 MKI). Unless Russia addresses the core issues on joint R&D, India should continue to increase efforts into AMCA.

On a related note, there is no immediate need to jump into buying 5th gen fighters from anyone -- First, China themselves are not ready to field J35s and we know how well the equipment they are willing to field performed in Op Sindoor. Second, India has already demonstrated willingness to use missile force, like taking out AWACS with S400, without needing airborne assets to do the job.

Instead, now is the time for incremental advancement in India's superior position with space tech (for ISR) and missile tech (for BVRs, hypersonics, etc.). And leverage the next 5yrs for building up drone force, find right EU partner for 5th gen aircraft, and finish AMCA development (particularly JV with some EU firm for engines), etc.

If history is any indication, the IAF will seek to maintain/restore deterrence by buying a 5G jet in response to a *possible* purchase of J-35. Pakistani DefMin Khwaja Asif recently denied PAF had any plans to buy them. The guy is known for his flip flops but even then there may be some truth to it.

The PAF Chief was recently in the US asking for more TPS-77 radar and B70 Vipers. In addition to upgrade kits, the US may be interested in selling some new airframes (if only to keep LMs F-16 assembly line open for a few more years) But I'd wager they would put a condition that PAF give up J-35.

The IAF would also want some insurance against China, given that MRFA/Rafale follow-ons and MKI UPG are delayed. An interim 5G fighter purchase will boost morale and more importantly help TACDE develop tactics which could be ported over to AMCA when it comes along in the 2030s.

 

[RISING SUN]

In that case, I would invite Putin to visit any one of the 125 counties with the ICC: Do we ignore Europe, who started it?

West has the problems with all major powers which are non Western, especially with ideological bias, if not outright contempts for their existence.

We don't even need to go further in centuries old time for that.

 

[_Anonymous_]

In that case, I would invite Putin to visit any one of the 125 counties with the ICC: Do we ignore Europe, who started it?

Spoken like a true Aussie redneck pops. Putin has been on international visits since the ICC warrant was issued ( he'd also be on a state visit to India later this year ) & the reason nobody takes this particular international warrant of the ICC seriously is the world's already in a fraught place.

If people go about arresting sitting heads of state or ministers it's going to be an even more dangerous place than it is besides setting a wrong precedent.

Consider what happens if some country decided to arrest Satanyahud if he was transiting through that particular country's air space ? Alternatively it could be done to any world leader on a trumped up charge.

Your world view seems to be in pure binaries . It's either black or white with you being colour blind to the possibility of any other colour. There used to be another member with exactly such a world view earlier. Yes you got it right. It was my dear dear friend Paddy. Are you making up for his absence ?

 

[Tatvamasi]