Army Aviation Corps : Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Tatvamasi
- Start date
Indian Army awaiting batch delivery of Apache attack helicopters from US
As part of a $600 million deal signed in 2020 with the US, the Indian Army is expecting delivery of six Apache helicopters, which has been delayed for over 3 months.
Helicopters:
1.HAL Rudra = 75
2.HAL Dhruv = 76/95
3.HAL Cheetah = 160
4.HAL Cheetal = 04*
5.HAL Lancer = 12
6.HAL Chetak = 04*
7.HAL Chetan = 04*
8. HAL Prachand LCH = 05/95
1.HAL Rudra = 75
2.HAL Dhruv = 76/95
3.HAL Cheetah = 160
4.HAL Cheetal = 04*
5.HAL Lancer = 12
6.HAL Chetak = 04*
7.HAL Chetan = 04*
8. HAL Prachand LCH = 05/95
Now that Modi ji has gone to Ukraine and hugged Zelensky, US may speed up all the delayed deliveries to us
We regularly get pics of Chetak from Southern Command. I think it's more than just 4.
This opens up room for HAL to gauge the Army's interest in a LCH MK2 or even a much talked about MCH, based on the IMRH design.Now that Modi ji has gone to Ukraine and hugged Zelensky, US may speed up all the delayed deliveries to us
Imo, scaling the LCH from a 5.6t to 7t class with extra armour and all other bells and whistles found on heavier AHs shouldn't be too much of a problem.
In fact, the ALH design should itself be stretched to create a 'medium' twin. The IMRH anyways weighs in at 13t. Latest avionics, new engines, modular weapons etc.
We should borrow a leaf from the Chinese on continuous iteration. Look what they've done with the 70s-era French-origin Super Frelon helo. They are now flying a 3rd or 4th gen variant of this bird as the Z-8L.
Let HAL integrate and certify Self Protection Suite & ATGM on LCH first.This opens up room for HAL to gauge the Army's interest in a LCH MK2 or even a much talked about MCH, based on the IMRH design.
Imo, scaling the LCH from a 5.6t to 7t class with extra armour and all other bells and whistles found on heavier AHs shouldn't be too much of a problem.
In fact, the ALH design should itself be stretched to create a 'medium' twin. The IMRH anyways weighs in at 13t. Latest avionics, new engines, modular weapons etc.
We should borrow a leaf from the Chinese on continuous iteration. Look what they've done with the 70s-era French-origin Super Frelon helo. They are now flying a 3rd or 4th gen variant of this bird as the Z-8L.
You want to double the size of ALH? This is not vande bharat to put additional rakes and call it express. No one can do it.This opens up room for HAL to gauge the Army's interest in a LCH MK2 or even a much talked about MCH, based on the IMRH design.
Imo, scaling the LCH from a 5.6t to 7t class with extra armour and all other bells and whistles found on heavier AHs shouldn't be too much of a problem.
In fact, the ALH design should itself be stretched to create a 'medium' twin. The IMRH anyways weighs in at 13t. Latest avionics, new engines, modular weapons etc.
We should borrow a leaf from the Chinese on continuous iteration. Look what they've done with the 70s-era French-origin Super Frelon helo. They are now flying a 3rd or 4th gen variant of this bird as the Z-8L.
Chinese is a terrible example. They milk the 70s design by adding more and more goodies. They didn't even try to create a clean-sheet design. They still rely on Mi-17s even after all the advancements in their aero industry.
There are issues with our MIC, but the helicopter development is not one of them. At least admire the fact that we have our own independent design without stealing. We are actually attempting to build our own 10+ ton helicopter design, not just one but two simultaneously. This is something that not even the europians have accomplished. The so-called stolen "iteration" is a suboptimal solution that they have to live with. That will not be the case for us.
No, not double. Around 7t MTOW (up from 5.5t currently) is what I meant. Such a variant would fill the gap in HAL' s portfolio between 5t+ weight class and the 13t class. Something like what the AW159 Wildcat is to the Super Lynx 300 (not comparing weights)
That I do. The basic ALH design has spawned a whole family of helos we can be proud of - from 3t+ to approx 6T. A 13T class is currently in the works. Imho, with a 7t class ALH++ in its line-up, HAL could possibly target civilian (offshore O&G, corporate) operators and provide an interim solution to the ICG which needs bigger helos for SAR. iirc, the IMRH has not yet been funded so there's scope for an improved Dhruv in the meantime.
It could be that have their hands full right now with D&D work for the NUH.
Who determines the gap? The requirements are provided by the services. HAL has to assess the feasibility of developing such a new variant.
How did you reach Z-18 from that?
LUH is a new development. LCH is based on ALH.
Selling a military-designed helicopter for high altitudes to civilians is difficult. It took decades of back and forth even to get the navy to agree on ALH. It will never be economical for a civilian to operate ALH. HAL is fundamentally a military aerospace company under MoD majority ownership. It is too much to expect them to make a new 7-ton helicopter for specific civilian use cases.
That goes without saying. However, there have been ocassions when HAL has developed and built ac on its own, despite clear lack of interest from the users. Case in point: HTT-40. Imo, adapting an existing design is far simpler than building a new ac. I was just pointing out than an opportunity exists. The final call rests with the users. For finding an opening in the civilian market, HAL will have to rely on its own research.
The point I wanted to make was that even a 70s-era relic can be kept relevant with iterative upgrades. HAL has developed several marks of the ALH but without airframe upgrades. Not that it's a bad thing but I'm advocating a bolder approach.
And yet HAL has developed a civil version of the Dhruv with the older Turbomeca 2B2 engine. Imo, it all depends on marketing (and after-sales service). Civilian requirements are not as stringent as military ones. The biggest USP is spares and logistics are fully local. HAL could sell to govt-owned cos like Pawan Hans. iirc they have a deal with them.
In any case, if Airbus can pitch a locally-built H125/Fennec (another high alt helo) to the civil market, so can HAL.
That was largely because of poor communication by HAL.
Commonality of parts with mil helos should help keep costs low.
Agree. But the civilian demand is increasing. HAL is actively positioning itself in the market as a local alternative to foreign manufacturers.
Who said anything about new? I was talking about a stretched version with improved features. The Dhruv needs an re-brand to appeal to commercial users, since it has been in the market for a while. Imo, extending the cabin by 2-3m, adding extra seats and other role-specific equipment should help it sell.
Lol. You are giving the opposite. I mentioned a requirement from services, not confidence. There has always been a need for 180 basic trainers, and the HTT-40 was developed to meet that requirement.
That doesn't make sense. Which helicopter did they not upgrade pre ALH? They are still producing upgraded Alouettes.
They continuously improved the ALH design with multiple versions. The latest maritime UHM is even getting Indian avionics. There is nothing to be inspired by the Chinese way of developing helicopters.
No one is stopping them from creating a civil version. The old civil ALH is just the Mk1 with civil recertification, which was a huge failure due to the reasons I listed.
Local spared wont be much helpful if its very expensive which is the case here. ALH is still 40-50% imported.
No, because it is not designed for shipborne operations. "Communication" wont fix a bad product for a particular requirement.
They learned the lesson, so they are developing different versions of the same class under IMRH/DBMRH in parallel.
The stretched version would be a new helicopter altogether. These kinds of comments come from a lack of understanding the complexities of aeronautical development. You can't just increase the size and rebrand it as MAX PRO. It is a huge undertaking. As a military PSU its not reasonable to expect HAL to undertake such a development without assured market opportunity which they get from services.