Chinese Missile Systems : Discussions

To be honest, I find it difficult to understand what adding water instead of fuel means in Chinese ballistic missile forces. Only the soon to be retired DF-5B is still using liquid fuel. And it uses highly toxic and corrosive unsymmetrical dimethylhydrazine, which is only injected into the missile 20 minutes before launch. Moreover, the author of this article clearly lacks a certain understanding of corruption. In an industrial country like China. The most common way of corruption is to spend 100000 to buy a ton of fuel. Then write 1 million on the invoice. This way you can get 900000. Instead of spending 100000 to buy water. Because of this, you can only get 100000.

The report doesn't mention anything about the type of missile used. Some types of cruise missiles are liquid too.

Even if DF-5A is retired, the DF-5B and C are new. And it's estimated that at least 60-130 warheads are assigned to the entire DF-5 family.

If the PLARF is corrupt to the point of sacrificing capabilities, then China cannot even fight wars let alone win. The purges are real though, that's the point.
 
I suspect that the original text seen by Bloomberg is.在导弹相关的东西注水。并试图掩盖。Then these people who are completely ignorant of Chinese understand it as adding water to a missile instead of fuel. Then the cover of the missile launch well cannot be opened. His original intention should be. Fraudulent pricing of missile related projects. And being dishonest in the face of investigations . It is a common saying in Chinese, and journalists who have a limited understanding of Chinese do not understand its meaning at all.

The exact nature of the crime isn't the issue, the people involved are.

Replacing fuel with water is clickbait, but generals and the defense minister getting arrested and prosecuted is the main news.
 
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The report doesn't mention anything about the type of missile used. Some types of cruise missiles are liquid too.

Even if DF-5A is retired, the DF-5B and C are new. And it's estimated that at least 60-130 warheads are assigned to the entire DF-5 family.

If the PLARF is corrupt to the point of sacrificing capabilities, then China cannot even fight wars let alone win. The purges are real though, that's the point.
Based on the currently available intelligence. The vast majority of solid launch wells are filled with DF41. Currently, only DF-5B has been announced, and DF-5A was phased out as early as the 1980s. I doubt any rationality in assigning warheads to the DF-5 series. Moreover, the fuel itself should be injected 20 minutes before launch. If injected too early, it can cause serious leakage problems. The biggest issue with this Bloomberg article is. There is no room for corruption in the aspects he mentioned. These seem to be just Western propaganda gimmicks. I can only say that this journalist has rich imagination and almost zero understanding of reality
 
The exact nature of the crime isn't the issue, the people involved are.

Replacing fuel with water is clickbait, but generals and the defense minister getting arrested and prosecuted is the main news.
I think the factors of factional struggle within the military should be greater than simple corruption factors. Of course, it is always good to be able to dismiss corrupt officials. I remember a French newspaper reported that Dassault had paid a rebate of 14.6 million euros to an intermediary of the Indian government. The Indian government refused to investigate this matter.
 
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I think the factors of factional struggle within the military should be greater than simple corruption factors. Of course, it is always good to be able to dismiss corrupt officials.

It's a problem if there are factional struggles in the PLARF. All other service wings are fine, but CMC should have a lot of power over the PLARF already. If nuclear forces are compromised, it means the most important organization of a nuclear power is being run by third-rate people. This should be unthinkable.

I remember a French newspaper reported that Dassault had paid a rebate of 14.6 million euros to an intermediary of the Indian government. The Indian government refused to investigate this matter.

It was quite funny. When the news came out, Congress attacked the BJP for it. Later it turned out the "corruption" happened under the Congress regime during the 126-jet deal. :ROFLMAO:

The allegations had nothing to do with the separate 36-jet deal.

Anyway, this is not corruption, it's just foreign companies using brokers to fund meetings. It was "illegal" in India, but it's legal everywhere else, so it was eventually made legal. But until it became legal, they used to launder the brokerage funds. Now the OEMs have to register their brokers with the govt with invoices and such. It's like going through a real estate agent if you want to buy a house.
 
It was quite funny. When the news came out, Congress attacked the BJP for it. Later it turned out the "corruption" happened under the Congress regime during the 126-jet deal. :ROFLMAO:

The allegations had nothing to do with the separate 36-jet deal.

Anyway, this is not corruption, it's just foreign companies using brokers to fund meetings. It was "illegal" in India, but it's legal everywhere else, so it was eventually made legal. But until it became legal, they used to launder the brokerage funds. Now the OEMs have to register their brokers with the govt with invoices and such. It's like going through a real estate agent if you want to buy a house
This has nothing to do with the political situation in India. Not even related to domestic courts in India. The entire investigation was driven by France. Including French courts and prosecution agencies.
It's a problem if there are factional struggles in the PLARF. All other service wings are fine, but CMC should have a lot of power over the PLARF already. If nuclear forces are compromised, it means the most important organization of a nuclear power is being run by third-rate people. This should be unthinkable
At present, only. Several senior military officers and leaders of some military departments have been dismissed from their positions. No one is clear about the specific reason. Most of the deductions you make are unfounded guesses.
 
This has nothing to do with the political situation in India. Not even related to domestic courts in India. The entire investigation was driven by France. Including French courts and prosecution agencies.

I know. It's irrelevant to India though.

At present, only. Several senior military officers and leaders of some military departments have been dismissed from their positions. No one is clear about the specific reason. Most of the deductions you make are unfounded guesses.

I didn't make any guesses. All I'm saying is PLARF should have people with more integrity. Meaning, there shouldn't be any corruption issues or dismissals from nuclear forces.

Basically people who work in PLARF must be flawless. Same for the nuclear forces from other countries.

But if you find scandals even in what's supposed to be your best organization, then that speaks volumes about the quality of people in all other Chinese organizations.
 
@Innominate, @randomradio, @jetray, @Amarante, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @RASALGHUL

US intel shows .....



why should any one believe this? has this been reported by any other neutral source? There might be corruption in chinese military but creating cock & bull stories out of it will fool none.
 
@Innominate, @randomradio, @jetray, @Amarante, @Picdelamirand-oil, @Bon Plan, @RASALGHUL

The same intelligence saying than a chinese SSN was lost this summer ? :sick:
 

US intel shows .....



why should any one believe this? has this been reported by any other neutral source? There might be corruption in chinese military but creating cock & bull stories out of it will fool none.
There was a subsequent purge of the military, so make your own mind up.
 
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Yeah, I read this when it came out. I have a theory. CCP probably launched an investigation into corruption as part of pre-war preparations that the Russians failed to do before the Ukraine invasion. So this revelation must be a byproduct of the investigation.

It's unfortunate that the Ukraine war has led authoritarian regimes to clamp down on corruption before wars, instead of the West leveraging this advantage during a hot war.

@LX1111

Do you understand now the risk of PLA generals surrendering without a fight in a major war? If corruption is widespread enough that many weapons have been rendered useless, then giving up becomes an option.
Sandbox goes in depth about this.

I believe it doesn't change anything. Xi is now replacing these people with his own yes-men which is just as bad specially during war. I think the PLA corruption is worse than Russia's and would have been exposed like Russia was/is if they attacked Taiwan only difference is Taiwan actually has a modern military and teeth to strike the mainland many times. Conservatively this is going to take Xi a decade to root out corruption to the point where it won't fare as bad as Russia's military has in Ukraine but only if Xi does it right by putting non yes-men and people of merit which means putting people that aren't political "friendly" which we know that won't happened. Meanwhile Taiwan will only get better in its defenses and offensive capabilities.

This is how bad it is for China's military in any invasion of Taiwan... Imagine if Ukraine had Taiwan's military capabilities? Meaning its air force, navy and cruise missile capabilities. Russia's current frontline map would totally look different. I don't see China's conventional capability any different from Russia's pre-war. Pre-war Russian military looked very pretty and capable on camera and parades just like China's military does difference is China not only would be taking on a competent Taiwan military but US, Nippon and Australia's navy and air force.
 
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Sandbox goes in depth about this.

I believe it doesn't change anything. Xi is now replacing these people with his own yes-men which is just as bad specially during war. I think the PLA corruption is worse than Russia's and would have been exposed like Russia was/is if they attacked Taiwan only difference is Taiwan actually has a modern military and teeth to strike the mainland many times. Conservatively this is going to take Xi a decade to root out corruption to the point where it won't fare as bad as Russia's military has in Ukraine but only if Xi does it right by putting non yes-men and people of merit which means putting people that aren't political "friendly" which we know that won't happened. Meanwhile Taiwan will only get better in its defenses and offensive capabilities.

This is how bad it is for China's military in any invasion of Taiwan... Imagine if Ukraine had Taiwan's military capabilities? Meaning its air force, navy and cruise missile capabilities. Russia's current frontline map would totally look different. I don't see China's conventional capability any different from Russia's pre-war. Pre-war Russian military looked very pretty and capable on camera and parades just like China's military does difference is China not only would be taking on a competent Taiwan military but US, Nippon and Australia's navy and air force.
Never underestimate your enemy. US must pound China with full fury when the push comes to shove. And by the looks of it, that time may be rapidly approaching...
 
Sandbox goes in depth about this.

I believe it doesn't change anything. Xi is now replacing these people with his own yes-men which is just as bad specially during war. I think the PLA corruption is worse than Russia's and would have been exposed like Russia was/is if they attacked Taiwan only difference is Taiwan actually has a modern military and teeth to strike the mainland many times. Conservatively this is going to take Xi a decade to root out corruption to the point where it won't fare as bad as Russia's military has in Ukraine but only if Xi does it right by putting non yes-men and people of merit which means putting people that aren't political "friendly" which we know that won't happened. Meanwhile Taiwan will only get better in its defenses and offensive capabilities.

It actually changes things a lot. Typically overarching strategy is decided by only a handful of people, not your run-of-the-mill general. And communist militaries are run from the top, so only a few people need to have enough "integrity," probably 'cause they have been fed or are treated well.

And PLAGF's reorganization has pushed decision-making at the tactical level down the chain. So you now have a colonel or major general leading the field unit, and a lt. general commanding the corps. Since the largest field unit is now a brigade, the unit becomes tactically more efficient, this results in junior officers being able to make better decisions. So even if the major and lt. generals are not up to the task, the mistakes they make can be corrected on the field by junior officers. But for that to happen, the junior officers need sufficient resources. So, if Xi deals with the corruption problem adequately, the brigades only become all the more effective, compensating for the increase in yes-men at the top.

And if they have started discovering problems as of 2022-23, it means they are working to eradicate both political rivals and make the system more efficient as part of their pre-war preparations. And any problems found can be fixed before they go to war. Assuming an invasion in 2026 or 2027, that's enough time to plug gaps.

This is how bad it is for China's military in any invasion of Taiwan... Imagine if Ukraine had Taiwan's military capabilities? Meaning its air force, navy and cruise missile capabilities. Russia's current frontline map would totally look different. I don't see China's conventional capability any different from Russia's pre-war. Pre-war Russian military looked very pretty and capable on camera and parades just like China's military does difference is China not only would be taking on a competent Taiwan military but US, Nippon and Australia's navy and air force.

If Ukraine had militarized to Taiwan's level, either the Russians wouldn't have attacked in the first place, would have presented itself as enough of a deterrence, or they would have ended the war long ago 'cause they would know exactly how much military power was necessary.

The Russians are stuck in this quagmire 'cause they miscalculated the resources they needed to mobilize.

Typically, for a great power or superpower to win a war, they need to know exactly how many resources to mobilize, post which it's just a numbers game. And to achieve deterrence, you just mobilize enough resources that it becomes too expensive an affair for the larger power.

For example, when it comes to Taiwan, the US is the smaller power. When it comes to SoKo, the US is the larger power.
 
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The only way Xi pulls the trigger is if he thinks Trump is going to win the election other than that he is going to be busy purging.

America's views on China are bipartisan, so I don't think it's gonna matter to China who's in power.

From China's perspective, the US today lacks sufficient resources to defend Taiwan, to the point where the US may have to reassess participation in Taiwan's defense.

A Republican administration only matters to the Russians.
 
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“Sometimes called the DF-45 or DF-51, it is clearly intended to outperform the DF-41,” said Mr. Fisher, a senior fellow with the International Assessment and Strategy Center.

Mr. Fisher said reports from Chinese military sites are hard to confirm, but one blog posting from Aug. 8, 2020, stated that the DF-45 would be “my country’s new generation of solid heavy well-based intercontinental missiles.”

The DF-45 would have a takeoff weight of 112 tons, a payload weighing 3.6 tons and would be armed with seven 650 kiloton warheads. The new missile’s estimated range would be between 7,456 miles to 9,320 miles.

“Such an ICBM would not be much larger than a DF-41 to preclude a road-mobile version,” Mr. Fisher said.

North Korea has produced the world’s largest transporter-erector launcher (TEL) for its Hwasong-17 ICBM, a missile that was mostly built with Chinese assistance, he added.

“So, China could produce TELs much larger than the 16-wheel TEL of the DF-41, to transport a larger ICBM like DF-45/51,” Mr. Fisher said."
 
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This has nothing to do with the political situation in India. Not even related to domestic courts in India. The entire investigation was driven by France. Including French courts and prosecution agencies.
This affair is a collection of unproven assertions by ill-intentioned people with a political agenda, such as the NGO Sherpa, which is an American-controlled organisation.

All the accusations have been proven false by the French courts, which explains why there have been no prosecutions.

By way of example, I can cite what has been made public about the tax write-off of 143.7 million euros:

Reliance confirmed that it had reached an agreement to pay Reliance Flag Atlantic France around €7.2 million instead of the €151 million requested by the French tax authorities for the period 2008-2012.

The French government's initial demand 'was unfounded and completely illegal', even though this subsidiary was making losses.

"No political interference"

France's ambassador to India, Alexandre Ziegler, said that an international agreement had been reached between the French authorities and Reliance Flag 'in strict compliance with the legislative and regulatory framework governing this common practice of the tax authorities'.

There was no political interference.

For its part, the Indian Ministry of Defence assured that no link could be established between the waiver of Anil Ambani's tax debt and the award of the arms contract.

Neither the timetable for the tax adjustment nor the reasons which dictated it are directly or indirectly linked to the Rafale contract.

The links put forward between the tax issue and that of the Rafale are completely inaccurate, tendentious and constitute a malicious maneuver of disinformation.