it is desert ferrari. if we aren't ready to upgrade infra for transport, whose fault is it?
it is desert ferrari. if we aren't ready to upgrade infra for transport, whose fault is it?
Agreed
Okay, Now this is not about 'belief'. when one is making something as complex as an aero engine, it is a very difficult tech but it is just confirmation of sorts, because no one in the Govenrment or the Millitary actually makes Aero engines.
The Flight worthy engine is a recent development, till 2016 there were tweaks baing done, one being a shill sound coming from thte engine no one knew why or from where it was coming. Kaveri was never intended to be put in a warehouse. We would have definitely flown it on tests beds again and again. never knowing when we actually crossed the threshold of flight worthiness. The development of Kaveri was paused at many instances but it was never intended to be stopped. Even if we had to spend ten times the present amount and more time. it would have continued. at Current costs we might be the first ones to develop an engine at such low price point. That's a HUGE win.
If it was so easy, why india didn't do it by itself ???
hummm ?
because it was probably far more difficult. No?
Because it's the Indian system of how things work in India, not the French system. if we had the French system working in India, we would not have needed it anyway.
If we had asked Snecma to replace the kabini core with the M88 core, then I would have appreciated real transfer of technology, I would have written Thank you, France. But I did not write that. Because that did not happen.
We won't know if there was any technical help involved in rectifying the "remaining" shortcomings of Kaveri. But knowing how things go, IMO there really wasn't any technical help done. Let me explain that. This whole Snecma looking into Kaveri was done to "know WHY" WHY did Kaveri have any shortcomings in it's operations. I'm not talking about Thrust alone here. There were reported problems of engine shutdowns, vibrations and sounds early on which are the most difficult to pin point because individually the systems were working fine, only when run for actual tests did these pop up. However, with our OWN research, we HAVE ALREADY rectified most of it. Engine life and a few other things were there which were not something we have any PRIOR experience on. France has that. So, what did we do ? We asked for experienced people to look into it. Snecma.
Bad thing was, it cost us money, this mere AUDIT cost us good money like it should. Good thing was, this was included in the Rafale package which has nothing to do with a GTRE product. A brilliant stroke. Now here is the thing, IF French had helped with technical help as to sharing knowledge about engine development, it would have cost a helluva lot more. And it would have come under our CAG's attention. Just this technical help with Kaveri alone would have been an issue with CAG and there would have been a stink of it. There is none. All the CAG has gone for is the Rafale deal alone. So, all I'm saying is, since we bought this Audit, buying real technical help would have cost us a whole lot more. If it has cost less it means that there wasn't any help necessary. Not worth the money. Kaveri is an alright product now, EVEN THE FRENCH SAY SO. Wholly home made. Ready to take to the skies.
Hence the part about Cracker's approval to take Kaveri to skies.
(That's all you can gather from public media.)
The problem with Kaveri was two fold. The screeching noise during afterburner operations and certification of the engine for flight tests. All the problems with present Kaveri have been resolved in house with very little assistance from Safran. However Safran has taught GTRE how to certify the engine for flight tests and what all needs to be done to ensure that engine performs as expected.
Kaveri's other versions were active, but the fighter version was, for all intents and purposes, dead.
"What SAFRAN has said is that the re-jigged Kaveri design, inclusive of the M88’s core, is a workable idea & the next step therefore is to develop a few prototypes for flight-tests. SAFRAN NEVER said that the Kaveri with the GTRE-developed core section is suitable for flight-tests on board a combat aircraft." - Prasun K. Sengupta
Just here after reading PKS blog whom @Parthu has quoted which I've included here .
Both of you are informed commentators . Whose version do we believe & why? @vstol Jockey
Your views too @randomradio
Whom do we believe ? As in whom does the layman believes ? Any sources or references ?
India makes RD33 with 90kN thrust and 1150kg weight. India makes Al31F engine with 80\125kN thrust and 1550kg (2000kg with TVC nozzle). Both these engines have TWR of about 8 in afterburner. Kaveri engine is expected to have 1250kg weight. It will be reasonable to expect Kaveri to have 105kN thrust even going by RD33 standards.
It will be pointless to make an engine wiyh lower TWR than what you already have.
Why do you think France will help India instead of using the opportunity to mint money from India?
If India needs engine, India has to make on its own.
Or there were internal enemies who sabotaged it.
India has friends who has given it Al31F engine and RD33 engine manufacturing. AL31F is especially made from Raw material stage and India has full ToT. Let us not pretend that India is so far behind other countries for some mysterious reason. The engine like M88, F414 were all made by 1990. The technology of West was not so great in 1990 that Indian technology today is lower than that.
After Al31F, Kaveri engine is just one step ahead. The development of engine since 1996 and the infrastructure availability of making Al31F is good enough to make Kaveri
MoD did not give funds for anything during UPA. Astra missile was tested from ground for 11 years from 2003 to 2014. Tejas had no development and was untit to fly in 2014. All that was available was airframe and FBW cum avionics. Rest were all imports with hardly any development. Scorpene submarine was negotiated by NDA in 2003 and signed in 2005 by UPA but first submarine was sent for sea trials in 2016, 11 years after contract was signed.
How did Kaveri solve the problems and get tested if MoD delayed funding? France has said that Kaveri is ready for limited trials. So, there must have been real work in the last 4 years.
M88 is 75kN engine and it has smaller size. It is impossible to fit in M88 core in 2 years and make Kaveri engine. So, the timeline itself makes it clear that M88 core is not used and it is original core itself
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I think you are missing the whole point here , we know nothing about AL31 engine .you are saying BMW is manufacturing in Chennai and we build all the spare parts so we can build BMW....Noway you might be knowing the wheel X inch but why you don’t know why they use that size you will never know ,if you haven’t involved in the designing,testing and troubleshooting of that product.we don’t know why the blade angle is that degree ...what speed we need to run ...when you need to change the blade ,what is the life of each component...we have 0.0 knowledge how al31 is stable.you are talking same way my Pakistani friends says that they have made a cruise Missile and a fighter plane ...thrust vectoring nozzle and software to control it that’s will be another milestone for DRDO.
We are a developing nations we have so many priorities every department need money .we will distribute 1rs and expect work of 1000rs that’s the reality now move on ...
If I am buying a car my friend France has years of experience in this sector and allay of us in aerospace (satellite lunch)why I will not take his help .i now I am a genius but not able to do it for last 30 years what’s wrong in taking help .
GTRE has enough money to make this work on the ground, but they need a plane to flight test it.
And there's the Ghatak also.
BMW is assembled in India with some parts like engines imported. Al31F is made in India fully.
Being a deveoping nation is irrelevant as the resource management can be done as long as the resource is available in India. The things that are needed are -metal, equipment, electricity and scientific labour. All this are within India.
India started Kaveri engine project in 1996 and in 20 years, about 6 years was wated by UPA from 2008 to 2014. If not for that, India would not have been still developing it. To know the reason of stability, angle of blades etc, one has to do multiple models/prototype and then find the variation. This can be done given some time and 16 years have been given for it.
India writes FADEC for Al31F and has also written it for Kaveri too. Know why and know how can be understood by trial and error.
France is not some generous benefactor to give assistance. The assistance generally means export of critical parts so that India can make engines with other parts sourced from India. Just like Shakti engine has french import, this assistance will also have french import
Ok
As far as I know it’s a license production ...and we will ask Russia before we touch anything and we have no knowledge how they decide the maintenance life cycle and xyz ....we are building al31without understanding why the specifications of that component like that...
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It was not. there were issues but it was more related to not being able to judge if it could be donr. reason : Lack of knowledge. French audit helped in that regard.
Leave PKS, half of his assessments are half assed, the M88 core design would mean full redesign of the engine its crontrol parameters and everything else (software. cooling etc). It would have taken another 10 years to get it right. DRDO GTRE completed everything, just the final cerification part was left, without which they would have made an engine not knowing if what they had made actually fit the bill. @vstol Jockey is bang on the buck here.
