Indian team goes abroad to scout for assault rifles, carbines for armed forces

[Milspec]

The long stroke design is used in AK series (47, 74, 103) and AR series rifles. Long sttoke is the most popular type of rifles due to its efficient design and lesser moving parts. It is obvious that most guns share similaity as the technology ia not too complex and hence almost everyone who designs a gun will design in certain fixed manner.

Making a gun is not a big accomplishment. I was just replying to your absurd comment.

Wow, AR series are "NOT" longstroke piston driven guns but DI guns, in other words it has no piston, , AR conversions to piston are short stroke pisons like the G36, HK416 series, and then there are roller delayed actions too in prolific platforms like G3's. In fact you couldn't be more wrong that long stroke has lesser moving parts, because direct impingement literally have no piston in them.

Lastly making as gun is not a big big accomplishment, sure you are absolutely right, I have put together ar15 and ar10 in my garage, but designing a gun from scratch can be challenging, given that OFB's bootleg designs miserably fail at trails and the fact they have never really designed one single rifle system in thier 218 years of existence should make it a big "accomplishment" for OFB.

Anyone with a shred of common sense will tell you that Insas is a copy of the AK platform, and that too not done well. Because there is another rifle based on the Ak platform, but developed correctly: i.e. galil, and today IA is going to look at galil as contender to replace Insas on their Israeli junket, what a travesty.

 

[Aravind]

Making a gun is not a big accomplishment. I was just replying to your absurd comment.

I made a shot gun after watching videos and people say OFB cannot make such guns? what! is the OFB full of idiots? Must be because of the Government jobs, they hardly bother to work.

 

[Aravind]

JVPC is not lethal enough army is going for 5.56x45mm instead. Excalibur is better than INSAS 1B1 but OFB is working on AR2 for rifle tender. Just look MCIWS, it was for army's requirement then they refused it saying multi-calibre not suitable for battlefield or some crap like that. DRDO has completed the development but now army is going for 0.308 instead. When you have user like Indian army with ever changing GSQRs its better to import(which obviously army wants) though we have foreign vendors also like Colt and Beretta pulled out of the contest.

The same case of Arjun MBT, Tejas, too many demands, when the OFB delivers it, cite some excuse like too much weight! or need more etc.
The whole MoD lives on kickbacks, that is why India will never have a Indigenous industry because of our habit of Bribes which was installed for many centuries and boosted up by Congress rule. I seriously lose hope on our country.

 

[Parthu]

Is this the demand of Army to have a gun where the barrels could be changed and the calibers?

No, I meant Caracal has both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles in its portfolio (and both based on AR15/AR10 design) unlike the other companies like S&T or Lithgow that only have 5.56 rifles on offer.

Why not just buy the Steyr AUG model from Austria in Toto and then develop your own variants down the line in a year or two?

This is going to be a fast-track purchase as I've said countless times already and is mentioned in the OP. Means there will be no ToT and no licensed production of this weapon - there will only be rifles manufactured abroad and imported ASAP. This is to fulfill emergency requirement.

Ofcourse, in future when we start placing order for all the 8 lac rifles, the same company which sells us these FTP guns could also win in that deal (which will include ToT and local manufacturing) - but that's unrelated.

From 2005 onwards OFB was not able to produce one sane model? i find it difficult to digest. What happened to the Modern Sub Machine Carbine (MSMC) ? It was too heavy? its bullets too heavy? or other reasons like Cartridges cracking in Cold?

The JVPC (aka MSMC) batch sent to trials had failed to meet the MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure) standard set by the Army. But it's performance was found acceptable enough for the CAPFs and other Central/State MHA units (like CRPF, Railway Protection Force, Police STFs etc.) and these units already placed significant orders for JVPC.

OFB is reportedly hoping that they can use these orders to stabilize quality in production so that the next batch they send for Army trials will be found acceptable.

 

[Milspec]

I made a shot gun after watching videos and people say OFB cannot make such guns? .

post pics.

 

[Milspec]

The same case of Arjun MBT, Tejas, too many demands, when the OFB delivers it, cite some excuse like too much weight! or need more etc.
The whole MoD lives on kickbacks, that is why India will never have a Indigenous industry because of our habit of Bribes which was installed for many centuries and boosted up by Congress rule. I seriously lose hope on our country.

JVPC/MSMC iirc uses a 5.56x30mm cartridge which I am not a fan of.
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

 

[Aravind]

No, I meant Caracal has both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles in its portfolio (and both based on AR15/AR10 design) unlike the other companies like S&T or Lithgow that only have 5.56 rifles on offer.

Well it was the wish of our army to have versatile gun, just by changing the barrels and thereby change the calibers.

This is going to be a fast-track purchase as I've said countless times already and is mentioned in the OP. Means there will be no ToT and no licensed production of this weapon - there will only be rifles manufactured abroad and imported ASAP. This is to fulfill emergency requirement.

Ofcourse, in future when we start placing order for all the 8 lac rifles, the same company which sells us these FTP guns could also win in that deal (which will include ToT and local manufacturing) - but that's unrelated.

Fast Track purchase after 13 years? the demand was in 2005! Since 2005 there were no technological jumps or industry, that could not meet this demand? as simple as manufacturing a WW2 era gun like AK47 which most of our forces use.Are the people that dumb? That you will ask the same company which sold you 80k rifles will manufacture the same in India?
If Defence acquisitions are this way, i too want to open a new company "Behti Ganga mein, Mein bhi Haath Daaldoon".

The JVPC (aka MSMC) batch sent to trials had failed to meet the MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure) standard set by the Army. But it's performance was found acceptable enough for the CAPFs and other Central/State MHA units (like CRPF, Railway Protection Force, Police STFs etc.) and these units already placed significant orders for JVPC.

OFB is reportedly hoping that they can use these orders to stabilize quality in production so that the next batch they send for Army trials will be found acceptable.

These are just fairytales. You and i know these orders will never happen and there will be more demands and finally the Ballistic weapons project of India would be junked and countries like Somalia,Mogadishu,Nigeria etc will supply Guns if our Army and MoD gets their kick backs!
I don't think IA as holy, i know about kickbacks right from stationery to the top. (Just the Stationery of Hyderabad, runs into lakhs and crores)

The simplest video
This video should be a shame for us, Rebar forged Rifle barrel and we never got a good gun for 13 years (Since 2005)

 

[Aravind]

post pics.

Just get some wood and make a chamber it will do for some 5 rounds . A iron pipe would do more. Why? post pics, so you could profile me?

 

[Milspec]

Just get some wood and make a chamber it will do for some 5 rounds . A iron pipe would do more. Why? post pics, so you could profile me?

Not to sound pedantic, but be very careful with such homemade devices, it can cause immense harm and has very harsh legal consequences especially in anti-gun countries like India. I thought when you said you built a shotgun, I thought you meant a you legally assembled or engineered a over under or a side by side and that's why I said post pics.

 

[Aravind]

Not to sound pedantic, but be very careful with such homemade devices, it can cause immense harm and has very harsh legal consequences especially in anti-gun countries like India. I thought when you said you built a shotgun, I thought you meant a you legally assembled or engineered a over under or a side by side and that's why I said post pics.

I experimented a lot . So yeah i know what i do along with the precautions.
Legal ? Even a knife above 9 inches is illegal in India, you need a police commissioners signature to make you carry legally 9+ inch knife with you
Even Air guns are being debated as Automatic weapons in news channels like India Today or CNN NEWS 18 and NDTV, MiRROR NOW ETC.
My point was i could make a Shot Gun and other stuff with homemade stuff.
I expected more from OFB or DRDO!
posting pics on net is called gloating! you should never succumb yourself to that vice.

 

[smestarz]

JVPC is CQ weapon, What CQ weapon do we use for our NSG ? Mostly its HK MP5
Now being tested the 5.45 X 30 used by JVPC is designed for better penetration even against body armour, and importantly its more powerful and lethal than 9 X 19 used by MP5. 9 x 19 is controllable round and good stopping power at short ranges, but 5.45 X 30 is more powerful and better penetration power and of course, better range (which is not really that important in CQB where the fighting takes place at much closer range. So what you suggest? JVPC in 9 mm parabellum???
5.56 X 45 mm is more lethal then there are 7.62 X 39 AK and 7.62 X 51 NATO which are more lethal, please dont forget .338 Lapua and 6.8 Grendel which are more lethal than 5.56
JVPC is CQ weapon, and 5.56 x 30 is ideal for it giving better penetration and controllability 9 mm give better control but does not have the lethality as that of 5.45 X 30
5.56 X 45 is more or less intermediate rifle round, too powerful for the size.

JVPC is not lethal enough army is going for 5.56x45mm instead. Excalibur is better than INSAS 1B1 but OFB is working on AR2 for rifle tender. Just look MCIWS, it was for army's requirement then they refused it saying multi-calibre not suitable for battlefield or some crap like that. DRDO has completed the development but now army is going for 0.308 instead. When you have user like Indian army with ever changing GSQRs its better to import(which obviously army wants) though we have foreign vendors also like Colt and Beretta pulled out of the contest.

 

[smestarz]

You mean to say that the Army guys want to import because they want to earn kickbacks?

No, I meant Caracal has both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles in its portfolio (and both based on AR15/AR10 design) unlike the other companies like S&T or Lithgow that only have 5.56 rifles on offer.



This is going to be a fast-track purchase as I've said countless times already and is mentioned in the OP. Means there will be no ToT and no licensed production of this weapon - there will only be rifles manufactured abroad and imported ASAP. This is to fulfill emergency requirement.

Ofcourse, in future when we start placing order for all the 8 lac rifles, the same company which sells us these FTP guns could also win in that deal (which will include ToT and local manufacturing) - but that's unrelated.



The JVPC (aka MSMC) batch sent to trials had failed to meet the MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure) standard set by the Army. But it's performance was found acceptable enough for the CAPFs and other Central/State MHA units (like CRPF, Railway Protection Force, Police STFs etc.) and these units already placed significant orders for JVPC.

OFB is reportedly hoping that they can use these orders to stabilize quality in production so that the next batch they send for Army trials will be found acceptable.

 

[smestarz]

There is no Emergency like you potray,

No, I meant Caracal has both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles in its portfolio (and both based on AR15/AR10 design) unlike the other companies like S&T or Lithgow that only have 5.56 rifles on offer.



This is going to be a fast-track purchase as I've said countless times already and is mentioned in the OP. Means there will be no ToT and no licensed production of this weapon - there will only be rifles manufactured abroad and imported ASAP. This is to fulfill emergency requirement.

Ofcourse, in future when we start placing order for all the 8 lac rifles, the same company which sells us these FTP guns could also win in that deal (which will include ToT and local manufacturing) - but that's unrelated.



The JVPC (aka MSMC) batch sent to trials had failed to meet the MRBF (Mean Rounds Between Failure) standard set by the Army. But it's performance was found acceptable enough for the CAPFs and other Central/State MHA units (like CRPF, Railway Protection Force, Police STFs etc.) and these units already placed significant orders for JVPC.

OFB is reportedly hoping that they can use these orders to stabilize quality in production so that the next batch they send for Army trials will be found acceptable.

 

[Parthu]

JVPC is CQ weapon, What CQ weapon do we use for our NSG ? Mostly its HK MP5
Now being tested the 5.45 X 30 used by JVPC is designed for better penetration even against body armour, and importantly its more powerful and lethal than 9 X 19 used by MP5. 9 x 19 is controllable round and good stopping power at short ranges, but 5.45 X 30 is more powerful and better penetration power and of course, better range (which is not really that important in CQB where the fighting takes place at much closer range. So what you suggest? JVPC in 9 mm parabellum???
5.56 X 45 mm is more lethal then there are 7.62 X 39 AK and 7.62 X 51 NATO which are more lethal, please dont forget .338 Lapua and 6.8 Grendel which are more lethal than 5.56
JVPC is CQ weapon, and 5.56 x 30 is ideal for it giving better penetration and controllability 9 mm give better control but does not have the lethality as that of 5.45 X 30
5.56 X 45 is more or less intermediate rifle round, too powerful for the size.

JVPC uses 5.56x30mm....where did this 5.45x30mm come from?

5.45 is Russian calibre designed for AK-74 series.

You mean to say that the Army guys want to import because they want to earn kickbacks?

If they want to earn kickbacks, then they are doing a shoddy job of it - as they have failed to place any order for foreign guns so far despite officially looking for rifles since past ~10+ years.

There is no Emergency like you potray,

According to who?

 

[Parthu]

I experimented a lot . So yeah i know what i do along with the precautions.
Legal ? Even a knife above 9 inches is illegal in India, you need a police commissioners signature to make you carry legally 9+ inch knife with you
Even Air guns are being debated as Automatic weapons in news channels like India Today or CNN NEWS 18 and NDTV, MiRROR NOW ETC.
My point was i could make a Shot Gun and other stuff with homemade stuff.
I expected more from OFB or DRDO!
posting pics on net is called gloating! you should never succumb yourself to that vice.

OFB is very well capable of producing guns. Whether they are small arms, rocket launchers, autocannons, artillery guns etc.

The problem is that they have abysmal local R&D capability. Even the most modern set of offerings from OFB are derived/based on these decades-old foreign designs:

AK series
FN FAL
FN MAG
FN/Browning HP
Sterling carbine

...among others.

Another problem is with ensuring a standard of QA/QC measures across entire production. Hopefully there have been improvements with regard to this.

 

[smestarz]

5.56 X 30 mm. my mistake just arrived from trip and almost 36 hours no rest.

The only emergency is due to the stupid opposition, and we cannot use guns against RAGA

JVPC uses 5.56x30mm....where did this 5.45x30mm come from?

5.45 is Russian calibre designed for AK-74 series.



If they want to earn kickbacks, then they are doing a shoddy job of it - as they have failed to place any order for foreign guns so far despite officially looking for rifles since past ~10+ years.



According to who?

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio wasn't this low priority according to you?

It's going based on priority. We got helmets, BPJs and artillery, now we are getting rifles.

 

[randomradio]

Why exactly can't India make its own rifles but rely on these imports? Is the plan to supplant OFB and make the rifles in private industry only by getting foreign partners? Even then, why can't the rifles like JVPC and Excalibur be given as ToT to private industry to make it without any partnership with foreign entity?

Yes. The IA wants to supplant OFB and create a competing environment instead of a monopoly.

It indeed must be low priority as India already has the technology to make rifles. Also, seeking imported rifles when Indian ones are working fine is something I don't understand

The requirements changed twice, drastically.

 

[randomradio]

Caracal Arms of UAE got significant exposure at DEFEXPO-2018 so I'm not surprised they're being considered (they're one of the few companies that offer both 5.56 and 7.62 rifles of the same family under one roof, so it's not wise to disregard them).

As of Australia...I'm guessing they will be visiting the Lithgow Small Arms Factory (subsidiary of Thales Australia) which manufactures the Steyr AUG variants under license and also designed & produced the new EF88/F90 version:

S&T Motiv (previously known as S&T Daewoo) of South Korea is actually a pretty high-profile small arms maker with a wide product portfolio. Although I can't imagine us going for a dated platform like the K2 rifle.

I still imagine IWI of Israel as the most likely winner of any foreign order for small arms for IA.



See, the OFB R2 (7.62x51mm) was rejected previously because of excessive recoil & noise issues. Until OFB can come up with a improved version that mitigates these problems, foreign rifles cannot be ruled out. OFB is already working on this.



Ordnance Factories will not allow outsourcing of production to private companies. They are worse than Unions in that regard. And I don't think MoD has the balls to completely piss them off.



As the article says this is for limited numbers as an emergency order more or less. I still think there is a high possibility that eventually IA will end up with new-generation OFB rifles as standard-issue at least as far as the 5.5 lakh requirement is concerned. As far as the 2.5 lakh orders for 7.62x51 rifles go, I sincerely hope that IWI-Punj Llyod will win with either ACE 52 or Tavor 7AR.

Bullpups are very unlikely.

 

[Noodler]

It is hard to believe that even a gun cant be all indian.