Is it possible to install Rocket Launchers like Pinaka on Arjun Chassis?

[Techy]

Hi Friends, we all know Arjun chassis is very robust and can be in multiple roles (based on available literature). In past, we have discussed at lengths about Arjun Chassis being used as self-propelled Artillery with Denel gun or M-146. There was a talk of Tank X(Karna if I am not wrong) by mating Arjun Chassis with T-72 Turret to create a light tank as well few years ago. I was checking along these topics when found someone proposing to mate Arjun with Pinaka/Smerch launchers to address shortage of self-propelled Arty requirements. I know Artillery and Rockets are not exactly same but the idea stuck me a bit. Hence wanted to know from experts/enthusiasts/members about feasibility of this and it's impact from strategic point of view.
pa
@Avi @Aashish @Shashank @Ashwin @Arvind @nair @Levina @Abingdonboy @Hellfire @Milspec @Nick @ni8mare @Nilgiri @Parthu @Parul @vstol Jockey @bonobashi @randomradio @Sathya and @others please share your thoughts.

 

[Notsuperstitious]

More efficient to use an IFV or APC chasis for this role.

OTOH given the range of such stand off artillery, there really is no real need to put it on tracked vehicles for India.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

Arjun tank can fire NAG type missiles, not pinaka. Pinaka missiles alone weigh 500kg. You really don't want to load Arjun tank with it. Moreover, Pinaka is not an aim and fire rocket but guided rocket whose aim is coordinate based satellite guidance. These MRBLs along with Artillery come under indirect firing and can fire upto 100km (pinaka) or 50 km (Artillery). There is no need to use a tank to fire such long distance. Tanks are for direct fire only. For that it has to use lock on missiles like NAG/LAHAT etc

 

[Arvind]

Hi Friends, we all know Arjun chassis is very robust and can be in multiple roles (based on available literature). In past, we have discussed at lengths about Arjun Chassis being used as self-propelled Artillery with Denel gun or M-146. There was a talk of Tank X(Karna if I am not wrong) by mating Arjun Chassis with T-72 Turret to create a light tank as well few years ago. I was checking along these topics when found someone proposing to mate Arjun with Pinaka/Smerch launchers to address shortage of self-propelled Arty requirements. I know Artillery and Rockets are not exactly same but the idea stuck me a bit. Hence wanted to know from experts/enthusiasts/members about feasibility of this and it's impact from strategic point of view.
pa
@Avi @Aashish @Shashank @Ashwin @Arvind @nair @Levina @Abingdonboy @Hellfire @Milspec @Nick @ni8mare @Nilgiri @Parthu @Parul @vstol Jockey @bonobashi @randomradio @Sathya and @others please share your thoughts.

Don't think so we can fit multi barrels along with Radar on Arjun chasis. Anyways what are the benefits you see in doing so?

 

[Sathya]

Pinaka Rocket stays bit behind - fire and scoot .. arjun chasis - mobility & range will suffer. and added cost to it.
i dont think they will enter the zone where arjun chasis can protect.
in the zone they operate , mostly likely guided munitions take them out , so even arjun chasis might suffer the same fate.

this is purely my speculation - with least amount of knowledge in it.

 

[lcafanboy]

It's like putting Dome AWACS on a Sukhoi Fighters. Why would you need one. Pinaka MRBL is long range shoot and Scoot weapon and will never be within enemy eyesight. Operational cost of tracked vehicles are prohibitive as compared to tyred vehicles and are slow to escape war zone. So no need to put pinaka on Arjun chassis.

For engineering perspective it can be done.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Hi Friends, we all know Arjun chassis is very robust and can be in multiple roles (based on available literature). In past, we have discussed at lengths about Arjun Chassis being used as self-propelled Artillery with Denel gun or M-146. There was a talk of Tank X(Karna if I am not wrong) by mating Arjun Chassis with T-72 Turret to create a light tank as well few years ago. I was checking along these topics when found someone proposing to mate Arjun with Pinaka/Smerch launchers to address shortage of self-propelled Arty requirements. I know Artillery and Rockets are not exactly same but the idea stuck me a bit. Hence wanted to know from experts/enthusiasts/members about feasibility of this and it's impact from strategic point of view.
pa
@Avi @Aashish @Shashank @Ashwin @Arvind @nair @Levina @Abingdonboy @Hellfire @Milspec @Nick @ni8mare @Nilgiri @Parthu @Parul @vstol Jockey @bonobashi @randomradio @Sathya and @others please share your thoughts.

The Logic behind Putting Tracks in any Armament is that The Vehicle or the Platform
has to " March " or Move along with the Armoured Corps ie Tanks

So we have Armoured personnel carriers and SP Artillery

The tracks give them more protection and make the platform stable

But Rocket artillery is basically a Stand off Weapon Fired from long ranges

When you are already 20/30 Km inside the enemy territory you wont need support of Rocket artillery

The Real problem with Rocket Artillery is Three fold

1 Cost of the Rockets

2 Time to reload

3 SATA Ie Surveillance and target acquistion for which they rely on Aerial Platforms

Therefore Rocket artillery is fired from The Rear areas after Targets have been acquired

In Indian Context we rely a More on Towed Artillery rather than SP artillery
and also More on Lorried Infantry (Trucks ) rather than BMP2 ie APCs
because our Troops and Tanks will be fighting in Plains / Deserts
and Built up areas ie in a conflict with Pakistan

By the Way we have Put Surface to Air Missiles on Tracked carriers
They will Protect out Tanks from Helicopters

So technically it can be done

 

[Shashank]

I feel its doable but given the already high weight of Arjun adding weight of artillery units mounted on top of it would make this a very very heavy unit and it may be tough to use it in the battlefield due to transport logistics. however if we are using artillery to support from behind the real battlefield something like this can be used in certain plains which is easy for heavy vehicles.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

It is More Important to Acquire long Range Platforms like Helicopters and Tactical battlefield Missiles like Prahaar to eliminate Enemy assets

Rocket Artillery is a Soft skinned but Very Expensive system

Once you are Inside enemy territory ; you will be attacked from all sides

One 120 mm Mortar falls on a Smerch and it is dead

 

[Techy]

Don't think so we can fit multi barrels along with Radar on Arjun chasis. Anyways what are the benefits you see in doing so?

I am trying to understand the benefit of this idea in context of cold start where Armoured columns were meant to provide support to advancing infantry units. If infantry is setting foot into enemy area then we would need to have artillery support to take out the entrenchments. SPH units can be very helpful but as we have very low numbers in this category so, would it help to have more mobile Arty unit to keep up the pace with advancing columns?

Let me rephrase my question: would any tracked rocket Artillery (be it Arjun or any other chassis) provide some nice firepower or not(keeping Cold start doctrine in mind)?

 

[randomradio]

It can be done, but it will be very expensive and cumbersome to move around. We don't have a requirement for tracked MBRLs anyway.

 

[Kshithij Sharma]

I am trying to understand the benefit of this idea in context of cold start where Armoured columns were meant to provide support to advancing infantry units. If infantry is setting foot into enemy area then we would need to have artillery support to take out the entrenchments. SPH units can be very helpful but as we have very low numbers in this category so, would it help to have more mobile Arty unit to keep up the pace with advancing columns?

Let me rephrase my question: would any tracked rocket Artillery (be it Arjun or any other chassis) provide some nice firepower or not(keeping Cold start doctrine in mind)?

You are trying to replace artillery with rocket? No, the real problem is that artillery shell is light weight and is easier to reload and fire quickly. Also, transportation is much simpler. Artillery is extremely cheap and quick to manufacture while rockets are slightly slower to make and require much more chemicals and material. In war, quantity matters a lot. Large quantity of artillery fired outweighs a few number of rocket fire. Also, the rockets are not heavily loaded with big weapons but has a small warhead. Most of its weight is in fuel to fly which is technically a waste when it hits the enemy. Overall, artilleries are over 100 times efficient than rockets to suppress enemy lines.

About tracked artillery (Self propelled Guns), the towed artillery are not exactly towed by hand but by trucks. There is really no need to have tank chassis to move artillery. Artillery will never use direct fire and need not fear much about getting hit from enemy direct fire. Also, artillery shell can easily destroy a tank if there is a direct hit. So, there is really no use of such armour except in a few cases. Also, artillery like ATAGS has APU and can run around for a hundred km on its own engine like a tractor.

Adding armour in such circumstances add weight which will make it difficult to disassemble for transport by chopper, repair or maintenance. The logistics problem of carrying large quantity of fuel to run the fuel guzzling heavy SPG will cause nightmares. Also, cost of manufacturing will rise heavily which will make mass manufacturing very difficult. Using a truck to tow these artillery and then using the APU to move around locally is a better option

 

[Shashank]

I feel its doable but given the already high weight of Arjun adding weight of artillery units mounted on top of it would make this a very very heavy unit and it may be tough to use it in the battlefield due to transport logistics. however if we are using artillery to support from behind the real battlefield something like this can be used in certain plains which is easy for heavy vehicles.

This time I would agree with Kshithij Sharma about problem with bulky artillery as you suggest to be mounted on Arjun or something similar. It will hamper their mobility a lot and any counter artillery would leave them vulnerable. For Cold start something thats light and packs lots of firepower with pinpoint accuracy is needed. I feel something like this would fail in terms of mobility and accuracy for sure.

 

[Arvind]

I am trying to understand the benefit of this idea in context of cold start where Armoured columns were meant to provide support to advancing infantry units. If infantry is setting foot into enemy area then we would need to have artillery support to take out the entrenchments. SPH units can be very helpful but as we have very low numbers in this category so, would it help to have more mobile Arty unit to keep up the pace with advancing columns?

Let me rephrase my question: would any tracked rocket Artillery (be it Arjun or any other chassis) provide some nice firepower or not(keeping Cold start doctrine in mind)?

Yes and No based on the terrain. Pinaka is medium range rocket which need not be mobilized deep into army territory but can clear the field before infantry and mechanized sections make inroads into. Now if we do see launching those projectiles from very rough terrain, basing them on arjun chasis may make some sense but the effort needed to redesign and fit Pinaka onto arjun chasis would be an enormous task. Perhaps rocket unit and Radar unit need to be mounted on separate chasis, so the efficiency of each unit working in isolation could be compromised.

Perhaps it will make more sense to mount short range rockets on arjun chasis than Pinaka.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

I am trying to understand the benefit of this idea in context of cold start where Armoured columns were meant to provide support to advancing infantry units. If infantry is setting foot into enemy area then we would need to have artillery support to take out the entrenchments. SPH units can be very helpful but as we have very low numbers in this category so, would it help to have more mobile Arty unit to keep up the pace with advancing columns?

Let me rephrase my question: would any tracked rocket Artillery (be it Arjun or any other chassis) provide some nice firepower or not(keeping Cold start doctrine in mind)?

In The Context of Cold Start ; what matters is How quickly you destroy the Rear areas and how well are you able to out flank the enemy

That is why in the recent exercises we have ALSO
been Dropping Air Borne Brigades along with 120mm mortars

That is in addition to the usual Air Land Joint battle manuevers being put into practice

If you are able to get 120mm mortars behind the enemy ; he is bound to panic

Rocket artillery has its uses ; It will be the opening salvo used for static targets and Infrastructure

Rockets are able to drop a large volume of firepower on a target and then run away

 

[Techy]

Something along these lines which is widely used by NATO forces. It has been actively involved in various Gulf wars:

U.S. Army Tactical Missile System M270 MLRS conducts a rocket launch

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Something along these lines which is widely used by NATO forces. It has been actively involved in various Gulf wars:

View attachment 1406
U.S. Army Tactical Missile System M270 MLRS conducts a rocket launch

US has now moved onto a Wheeled and Lighter Version of the HIMARS

M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) (United States)

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

In today's Times ; with Round the Clock surveillance assets your Movement and Mobilisation
will be picked up by the enemy ie Pakistan

They will put Counter battery measures In place

Also they have got Fire finding radars

So Shoot and Scoot ability is of prime importance

Your Tracked carriers will be heavy and slow

And if the enemy is able to put them out of action with his counter battery Fire
You have lost valuable assets

 

[Milspec]

Hi Friends, we all know Arjun chassis is very robust and can be in multiple roles (based on available literature). In past, we have discussed at lengths about Arjun Chassis being used as self-propelled Artillery with Denel gun or M-146. There was a talk of Tank X(Karna if I am not wrong) by mating Arjun Chassis with T-72 Turret to create a light tank as well few years ago. I was checking along these topics when found someone proposing to mate Arjun with Pinaka/Smerch launchers to address shortage of self-propelled Arty requirements. I know Artillery and Rockets are not exactly same but the idea stuck me a bit. Hence wanted to know from experts/enthusiasts/members about feasibility of this and it's impact from strategic point of view.
pa
@Avi @Aashish @Shashank @Ashwin @Arvind @nair @Levina @Abingdonboy @Hellfire @Milspec @Nick @ni8mare @Nilgiri @Parthu @Parul @vstol Jockey @bonobashi @randomradio @Sathya and @others please share your thoughts.

Is it possible, yes. It would look a bit like the TOS1.

Is it needed , imo perhaps no. Stand off distances makes the armor a bit pointless, and wheeled options are cheaper and faster (contingent upon being properly made )

 

[Bharath]

each Pinaka battery consists of: six launcher vehicles, each with 12 rockets; six loader-replenishment vehicles; three replenishment vehicles; two Command Post vehicle (one stand by) with a Fire Control computer, and the DIGICORA MET radar. A battery of six launchers can neutralise an area of 1,000 m × 800 m.

The Army generally deploys a battery that has a total of 72 rockets.

the Pinaka is used from a distance of 40 KM (mk I) or 75 km (mk II).

given the amount of set up required for the Pinaka, it wont make sense to have that system on a battle field type scenario (it will be on the periphery of the battlefield). while a Tank is supposed to be in the heat and heart of the battle field.

adding heavy armor to the Pinaka system will slow it down from moving quickly after its fire (since weapon locating radars will be prowling the area).