Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

safriz said:
The Chinese engine manufacturing problems cost us J-10.
The J-10 were to be purchased by PAF starting in 2003. But with the clause that all such jets should have a Chinese engine.
The Chinese failed miserably in manufacturing a home grown engine.
Only in the last two three years they have matured the technology.
And now they are first meeting domestic needs and export will come after.
Also the fact that although they have matured the engine design, the manufacturing techniques are still slow and turnover is very low.
Thats why Pakistan avoided WS-13 at the moment as China cannot provide enough engines quickly.
However JF-17 is designed for being able to swap components and being able to use various manufacturers.
If later the Chinese can maintain a reliable supply line of jet engines, then Thunders can be fitted with Chinese engines.
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I doubt there was any clause saying the J-10 should come with a Chinese engine. Or else you wouldn't have accepted the JF-17 without a Chinese engine either, the threat is after all the same. In fact, with China's access to Russian tech for the AL-31, the J-10 would have been a far safer option than the RD-93, which China doesn't operate. So this talk of engine being the reason is a red herring.

The real reason is actually very simple. With the exception of some performance related advantages, there is no difference in capability between JF-17 and J-10. The weapons carrying capacity is pretty much the same, avionics are also pretty much the same. In fact, I would say that in the Indo-Pak setting, the JF-17 is a superior candidate over the J-10 due to its slight advantage in range performance and the PAF's current experience with the F-16, which has a similar design philosophy as the JF-17, other than the fact that the JF-17 is produced in Pakistan to a significant extent therefore making it easier to upgrade compared to the all-import J-10, with minimal access to its technologies.

And when it came to the performance related advantages, it would only reflect in WVR combat, but that's pointless since even our Mig-21s come with HMDS and high off-bore sight missiles, making it irrelevant. So why would you pay a lot more money to gain no capability and also inherit all the problems associated with a new design? The JF-17 came out of a family of proven designs in the F-7, so it was logical to continue with it rather than get stuck with a brand new design with no control over it. Not to mention the Chinese would have downgraded everything anyway.

As for the WS-13, as long as the PLAAF doesn't operate it, then the Chinese are not going to fix any design related problem. They will just ignore any problems that are difficult to solve and you will get stuck with a lemon for a long time.
 
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randomradio said:
I doubt there was any clause saying the J-10 should come with a Chinese engine. Or else you wouldn't have accepted the JF-17 without a Chinese engine either, the threat is after all the same. In fact, with China's access to Russian tech for the AL-31, the J-10 would have been a far safer option than the RD-93, which China doesn't operate. So this talk of engine being the reason is a red herring.

The real reason is actually very simple. With the exception of some performance related advantages, there is no difference in capability between JF-17 and J-10. The weapons carrying capacity is pretty much the same, avionics are also pretty much the same. In fact, I would say that in the Indo-Pak setting, the JF-17 is a superior candidate over the J-10 due to its slight advantage in range performance and the PAF's current experience with the F-16, which has a similar design philosophy as the JF-17, other than the fact that the JF-17 is produced in Pakistan to a significant extent therefore making it easier to upgrade compared to the all-import J-10, with minimal access to its technologies.

And when it came to the performance related advantages, it would only reflect in WVR combat, but that's pointless since even our Mig-21s come with HMDS and high off-bore sight missiles, making it irrelevant. So why would you pay a lot more money to gain no capability and also inherit all the problems associated with a new design? The JF-17 came out of a family of proven designs in the F-7, so it was logical to continue with it rather than get stuck with a brand new design with no control over it. Not to mention the Chinese would have downgraded everything anyway.

As for the WS-13, as long as the PLAAF doesn't operate it, then the Chinese are not going to fix any design related problem. They will just ignore any problems that are difficult to solve and you will get stuck with a lemon for a long time.
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What a load of bull you just wrote?

I will not even bother arguing 😅
 
randomradio said:
You are free to hold that opinion. PAF did not go for J-10s because the jet added nothing of value to what they already had.
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That is true now . But in 2003 when original offer was made and when in 2008 President General Musharraf visited J-10 factory, things were different.
As years went by, the J-10 became less and less relevant for PAF.
Still the Chinese are offering J-10c which they even sent to Pakistan for exercises (read marketing) is pretty advanced and may still benefit Pakistan if purchased.
But now PAF is heavily investing in JF-17 III and the ground attack/ trainer version the Thunder B .
Now investing in J-10 is even more difficult and may not happen ever.
 
safriz said:
That is true now . But in 2003 when original offer was made and when in 2008 President General Musharraf visited J-10 factory, things were different.
As years went by, the J-10 became less and less relevant for PAF.
Still the Chinese are offering J-10c which they even sent to Pakistan for exercises (read marketing) is pretty advanced and may still benefit Pakistan if purchased.
But now PAF is heavily investing in JF-17 III and the ground attack/ trainer version the Thunder B .
Now investing in J-10 is even more difficult and may not happen ever.
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The J-10 was utter crap throughout the 2000s. It became something after J-10B came about.

The J-10C provides no advantage over the JF-17 Block 3, unless of course they release a more advanced weapons package. But if there's no difference in the weapons package, then it's a waste of money even if you did have the money for it.

A true complement to the JF-17 is a larger twin engine jet, like the Rafale/Typhoon. It doubles the payload and increases flight time by an hour.
 
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brrrrrrrt
 
safriz said:
The J-10 were to be purchased by PAF starting in 2003. But with the clause that all such jets should have a Chinese engine.
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That is very very unlikely. When they themselves are using Russian engine pushing the unproven engine to export does not make sense. Maybe after a decade. Another fanboy rambling that they took to the heart.

safriz said:
Thunders can be fitted with Chinese engines.
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After its airframe life ends?
 
Ashwin said:
That is very very unlikely. When they themselves are using Russian engine pushing the unproven engine to export does not make sense. Maybe after a decade. Another fanboy rambling that they took to the heart.


After its airframe life ends?
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Remember PAF Mirages?
and how many times their airframe life has ended?
 
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Ashwin said:
Good one. But its a western example. You cant extend the life of eastern airframes. There is no evidence of it.
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That may not be true.
Your own Mig-21 are flying way past their expiry date .
Likewise our PAF had F-5 which were only built for 500 hours of flying.
But PAF used them for years.

There's another bigger problem with Thunder which nobody talks about
Its the lifespan of the Chinese air to air missiles.
Will write about it at another time.
 
safriz said:
That may not be true.
Your own Mig-21 are flying way past their expiry date .
Likewise our PAF had F-5 which were only built for 500 hours of flying.
But PAF used them for years.
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The last batch of HAL build Migs is not that old. If they had a choice they would have life extended Mig-27s. Those with upgrades were better than Mirage ROSE.
 
safriz said:
Remember PAF Mirages?
and how many times their airframe life has ended?
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You actually need to fly the aircraft in air to use up the OEM guarantee flying hours. Just turning on the engines on and off on the ground won't cost you any flight hours.

Try flying even 40-50 hours a year your fleet of Mirage III/V and F7PGs. Then we will see how good your engineers/support staff or your emergency services are 😆😆😆
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
You actually need to fly the aircraft in air to use up the OEM guarantee flying hours. Just turning on the engines on and off on the ground won't cost you any flight hours.

Try flying even 40-50 hours a year your fleet of Mirage III/V and F7PGs. Then we will see how good your engineers/support staff or your emergency services are 😆😆😆
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They were so confident about their engineering prowess that they sent mirages for combat on 27th February 2019.
The H-4 SOW dropped on Indian regional military headquarters and recorded, was from a Mirage
 
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safriz said:
They were so confident about their engineering prowess that they sent mirages for combat on 27th February 2019.
The H-2 SOW dropped on Indian regional military headquarters and recorded, was from a Mirage
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27th will be Kargil some 10 years later when your government will even partially accept that what happened.

By the way we actually went inside your airspace and bombed and killed your "strategic assets". What happened on 27th was a disaster for PAF pilots more than their equipment.

By the way if the capability is so good , where is Raad on JF17??? Outside your wet dreams kid.
 
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safriz said:
They were so confident about their engineering prowess that they sent mirages for combat on 27th February 2019.
The H-4 SOW dropped on Indian regional military headquarters and recorded, was from a Mirage
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Some Informed sources also believe that the H-4 wasn't the only thing those Mirages dropped. Apparently, one of them just fell from the sky without being shot down by Wing Co Abhinandan. Quite a testimony, if true, of your ROSE upgrades.
 
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_Anonymous_ said:
Some Informed sources also believe that the H-4 wasn't the only thing those Mirages dropped. Apparently, one of them just fell from the sky without being shot down by Wing Co Abhinandan. Quite a testimony, if true, of your ROSE upgrades.
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You mean, there were two PAF jets fell from the sky on 27th?

I also heard the same in other forum across the border.
 
rockstarIN said:
You mean, there were two PAF jets fell from the sky on 27th?

I also heard the same in other forum across the border.
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Even if there was, they won't admit it.

The only thing which matters is that despite having such a big attack formation backed by SAAB Eyre and ZDK03 and Il78 refuellers, they fired dozens of Aams and guided munitions without even proper targetting while running away and never crossing into against a very small IAF formation.

If only the same IAF formation had different RoE, our Su30MKI would have Eyre, ZDK03, IL78 and F16AM/BM kill marks on them.
 
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