Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

I don't like punching down.
Then don't just shoot and scoot.
I didn't answer the TopGun question because it was moronic which was not surprising to me that you asked it.
It was you who claimed that dogfights are over. Nothing is more moronic than that.
You see your TopGun question implies that you still think TopGun school is nothing but a dog fighting school and that everything else is secondary and that kind of thinking from you is primitive.

Lol no. Topgun is about air combat which means BVR, WVR, guns only dogfight, strike missions all are integral part of its training. But the basic part is to teach pilots how to fight in a close turning DACTS with guns. Cough.....VietNam.....Cough.
But like I said that doesn't surprise me that it comes from you since you still live in a 'dog fighting is important world.' Primitive is your thinking but that can change quickly by researching what TopGun school is now... which is no different from Red Flag.
It was you who moronically claimed that "dogfights are over". Just show me one post of mine, were I said modern combat is only about Dogfights?


Fact is, all your fighters still carry internal guns and AIM-9X and you are preaching to everyone that "dogfight is over". That is the height of stupidity, but since it's coming from you, it's well expected.

My opinion is that BVR, WVR with HOBS and WVR with guns, all three are integral part of air combat and are not going anywhere(maybe gun cannon will be in future replaced by Laser, that's it).
 
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I don't like punching down.

I didn't answer the TopGun question because it was moronic which was not surprising to me that you asked it.

You see your TopGun question implies that you still think TopGun school is nothing but a dog fighting school and that everything else is secondary and that kind of thinking from you is primitive. But like I said that doesn't surprise me that it comes from you since you still live in a 'dog fighting is important world.' Primitive is your thinking but that can change quickly by researching what TopGun school is now... which is no different from Red Flag.
After typing this rant , the least you could do was enclose a write up on the latest manifest of Top Gun . That way it'd be clear if you were telling the truth or as usual talking out of your behind with your head up it . Or did I ask you another out of syllabus question ?
 
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Why does the US need to fly from Guam or Australia? They can do so from Japan and RoK (?) . The US will never enter this fracas without Japan in it. Not sure about RoK who may sit it out for if they enter, the DPRK would follow suit .

Ditto for Philippines. Theoretically the US can base it's Naval, AF & Submarine fleet there too but I doubt the Philippines would let it's bases be used during war time to stage raids against China.
I have just taken the nearest point to explain why f-35A is not usefull over Taïwan mainly because its poor avaibility and its bad combat range.
There is the japanese islands of Ishigaki 300 km or Miyako (400 km) from Taïwan but it is quite easy to threaten their airports with cruise missiles.
 
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I have just taken the nearest point to explain why f-35A is not usefull over Taïwan mainly because its poor avaibility and its bad combat range.
There is the japanese islands of Ishigaki 300 km or Miyako (400 km) from Taïwan but it is quite easy to threaten their airports with cruise missiles.
I'm sure the military planners have you on speed dial.
 
Nope.
When you prepare a mission for a fighter, you have to give him a zone to play, a point to enter in this zone and a point to flight out. From the take-off to the enter point you have ingress, from the out point to the landing you have egress.
What I refer to playtime is the usefull time in the zone not the ingress or the egress time useless.

Chinese will have for example a huge advantage over US If f-35 have to come from GUAM or from the Phillipines. KC tanker can help to mitigate this problem of course but not totally by far.

For example IF US choose to have 2 F-35 over taïwan all the time during one month coming from Phillipines
That mean that they have to organize enough flight for 720 x 2 hours.

Flight from Phillipines is 40 min (600 km at 900 km/h), return the same, and I take one hour on station still at 900 km/h.
The playtime is 1 hour not 2h20.

And one such flight is 1/6 that a F-35A is able to flight per month today. To make such a mission with the actual avaibility of the F-35A you need 240 f-35A, not less.

Of course this is impossible because you also need KC tankers at each flight.

That's why I say that permanent aerial superiority is impossible over taïwan for the current block3F without a new engine. Permanent aerial superiority can not be obtain with F-35A. The only job that can be given to F-35A is SEAD/DEAD or RECO missions.

Okay, so you are indeed referring to on-station time. It doesn't take into account transit, reserve and combat times. For example, a jet has 3000Km range, but it has to patrol a point 500Km away, then 1000Km is lost to transit, assuming 400Km is lost to reserves and combat, the left over 1600Km will give you 2 hours on-station.

It shouldn't matter a lot. The US will very likely operate both the F-22 and F-35 from Taiwan. 4 groups of 4 F-22s each for a total of 16 F-22s and 8 groups of 4 F-35As each for a total of 32 jets can be earmarked for air defence operations in Taiwan within a very short timeframe, in a matter of hours, never mind the fact that the US and Taiwan will get plenty of time to plan their defence as Chinese forces build up across the channel. It's basically how their AEFs are set up. The rest of the missions can be conducted from Japan or the Philippines, and that works both ways, since even the Chinese have to fly the same distance to attack these bases.
 
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Okay, so you are indeed referring to on-station time. It doesn't take into account transit, reserve and combat times. For example, a jet has 3000Km range, but it has to patrol a point 500Km away, then 1000Km is lost to transit, assuming 400Km is lost to reserves and combat, the left over 1600Km will give you 2 hours on-station.

It shouldn't matter a lot. The US will very likely operate both the F-22 and F-35 from Taiwan. 4 groups of 4 F-22s each for a total of 16 F-22s and 8 groups of 4 F-35As each for a total of 32 jets can be earmarked for air defence operations in Taiwan within a very short timeframe, in a matter of hours, never mind the fact that the US and Taiwan will get plenty of time to plan their defence as Chinese forces build up across the channel. It's basically how their AEFs are set up. The rest of the missions can be conducted from Japan or the Philippines, and that works both ways, since even the Chinese have to fly the same distance to attack these bases.
Why not from South Korea? It would be naive to think that China won't attack Taiwanese air bases. Then how will the F-22/F-35 operate from Taiwan? Having said that any potential US base anywhere will have to contain saturation Rocket/TBM attacks by PLARF.
 
Okay, so you are indeed referring to on-station time. It doesn't take into account transit, reserve and combat times. For example, a jet has 3000Km range, but it has to patrol a point 500Km away, then 1000Km is lost to transit, assuming 400Km is lost to reserves and combat, the left over 1600Km will give you 2 hours on-station.
Yes agree.
And the case of stealth fighter is that reserves to mitigate temperature have to be high.
It shouldn't matter a lot. The US will very likely operate both the F-22 and F-35 from Taiwan. 4 groups of 4 F-22s each for a total of 16 F-22s and 8 groups of 4 F-35As each for a total of 32 jets can be earmarked for air defence operations in Taiwan within a very short timeframe, in a matter of hours,
Not so easy. F-22 and F-35 rely on heavy maintenance. It's OK for some days but not for heavy tempo ops except if taiwanese have convert their airport to be f-35/F-22 ready.
The second point is that Taïwan is very close to chinese missiles. Taïwanese airports will be on the constant threat from China.
and that works both ways,
I only speak of aerial superiority. For penetration mission you don't have to stay one hour in the playzone. Why Chinese would need aerial superiority above Philippines or Japan ?
 
Why not from South Korea? It would be naive to think that China won't attack Taiwanese air bases. Then how will the F-22/F-35 operate from Taiwan? Having said that any potential US base anywhere will have to contain saturation Rocket/TBM attacks by PLARF.

SoKo has no interest in fighting China. So they will most likely stay neutral.

The small number of jets can be distributed all over the place. Plus the Taiwanese have highway strips.
 
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Yes agree.
And the case of stealth fighter is that reserves to mitigate temperature have to be high.

That fuel requirement for cooling is overblown. The main tank is almost always full, and by the time it becomes empty, the F-35 will be headed home anyway, or it will be in the process of crashing.

Not so easy. F-22 and F-35 rely on heavy maintenance. It's OK for some days but not for heavy tempo ops except if taiwanese have convert their airport to be f-35/F-22 ready.

The victor in the air war will be determined very quickly.

And to support 4 F-22s over 3 days, 1 C-17 is enough. The same with the F-35A. So, if we are talking about 12 groups, that's just 12 C-17s. The 12 groups can be rotated out of Taiwan every second day or third day if necessary and replaced with a whole new set of jets.

Plus the Chinese will give the Americans a lot of preparation time, so quite a bit of the materials needed to support just 12 aircraft groups can be pre-positioned beforehand, even a week before hostilities begin, and transported by trucks.

The F-22/35 don't need aircraft-specific infrastructure during wartime, it's only for peacetime operations. Whatever the C-17 carries, it's enough for 3 days of operations.

The program prepares four F-22s and crew members with C-17 Globemaster III cargo aircraft that can provide support, fuel, and weapons with the specific purpose of enabling a “first-strike” capability in remote or austere places around the world.

The C-17 too can operate in austere conditions.
C-17-Globemaster-aircraft.jpg


The second point is that Taïwan is very close to chinese missiles. Taïwanese airports will be on the constant threat from China.

Highway strips. China's missiles are not enough to stop air operations on the ground against Taiwan.

I only speak of aerial superiority. For penetration mission you don't have to stay one hour in the playzone. Why Chinese would need aerial superiority above Philippines or Japan ?

If the Chinese are to take Taiwan, they need air superiority across the entire length of the water body starting from YellowSea/Sea of Japan, all the way down south to the SCS. That's the frontline. Basically everything between Chinese airspace and the First Island Chain has to be controlled by them, even if most of the fighting happens over Taiwan. If they can't do that, then the USN will fill the gaps and change the equation overnight, China won't be able to escape from the destruction of its coastline.

Air superiority between these two powers is more about technology than logistics. The Americans have proven global logistics and the Chinese are fighting in their airspace. So the equation boils down to whether Chinese J-20s and SAMs can defeat the F-22 and F-35, and the course of the war will be determined in the first few days.

What's annoying and frightening is even a destroyed Taiwan works in China's favour, even if the invasion fails. Most people would leave, the economy would be dead, no more Taiwanese semiconductors, and no more long term ideological threat to the communists.
 
Highway strips. China's missiles are not enough to stop air operations on the ground against Taiwan.
Perhaps. Have you seen this video of how a small drone coming from bielarusse 300 km away and have visit all a russian airport near moscow and have discovered the very bad defense and prepared the destruction of the Mainstay ?
You can also imagine everyday raids of LANCET like munitions against f-35 from the chinese coasts.
Strips are not the only target on a airport.
 
The victor in the air war will be determined very quickly.
It's only a bet.
The 12 groups can be rotated out of Taiwan every second day or third day if necessary and replaced with a whole new set of jets.
Yes but how long ? During one month ? What if the war is longer ? What if 2 f-35 / F-22 in the sky of taïwan is not enough ?
What about attrition rate ?
If the Chinese are to take Taiwan, they need air superiority across the entire length of the water body starting from YellowSea/Sea of Japan, all the way down south to the SCS. That's the frontline. Basically everything between Chinese airspace and the First Island Chain has to be controlled by them, even if most of the fighting happens over Taiwan. If they can't do that, then the USN will fill the gaps and change the equation overnight, China won't be able to escape from the destruction of its coastline.
If that is done then Japan, Philippines and Korea will be involved in the war. Not sure that they wan this. But let's take the case. Japan will also be threaten all along its coast, so does Korea. That is not a simple war that you are talking to. US can't deal with so many theaters with only some hundreds of f-35 making only 15 hours/month.
 
Perhaps. Have you seen this video of how a small drone coming from bielarusse 300 km away and have visit all a russian airport near moscow and have discovered the very bad defense and prepared the destruction of the Mainstay ?
You can also imagine everyday raids of LANCET like munitions against f-35 from the chinese coasts.
Strips are not the only target on a airport.

Prepared infrastructure is easier to attack. The issue with highway strips is you are done with it long before you are found out.

Can't really compare the situation in Ukraine with Taiwan, the Taiwanese actually have excellent air defences and an actual air force. As long as the USAF does its job in the air, the Taiwanese can take care of anything else that's not stealth, be it helicopters or drones, even the tiny ones.

The Mainstay attack was fake news.

A drone did use the Mainstay as a landing pad, but it was harmless. Here's the video:

Yes but how long ? During one month ? What if the war is longer ? What if 2 f-35 / F-22 in the sky of taïwan is not enough ?
What about attrition rate ?

Same story, right? All the damage will be done within the first 3 days. Everything beyond that will likely involve a Chinese victory because they would have taken control of the air by then. If the USAF doesn't gain an advantage in the first 12 to 24 hours, it's over. They don't have the F-22 numbers necessary to prolong the conflict. If they lose 40-50 of them, they will be done. Otoh, China can probably lose 200 J-20s.

If that is done then Japan, Philippines and Korea will be involved in the war. Not sure that they wan this. But let's take the case. Japan will also be threaten all along its coast, so does Korea. That is not a simple war that you are talking to. US can't deal with so many theaters with only some hundreds of f-35 making only 15 hours/month.

US can't fight China without Japan. And Japan intends to fight for Taiwan.

SoKo has enough diplomatic clout to stay away from a war over Taiwan. Neither the US nor China will want to involve SoKo because the ground forces required for such a war will be too much, plus Kimchi will use nukes.

Philippines' involvement revolves entirely around who wants to escalate the war. Pretty much everybody, including the Pinoys themselves, believe they will get dragged into the war.

And since America's security participation has increased and the Pinoys are also arming themselves, it makes sense that they are also preparing to fight.

The F-35's flying time will be fine during war, the current number is just peacetime. Assuming a war in 2025, the USAF will see 2-2.5 years of new F-35s, and so will Japan. By then, we can also assume that the F-35 would be better than it is today, especially post the TR-3 upgrade. Plus its availability will have increased to acceptable limits, partly due to the new engine fix, so wartime availability will get a boost.
 
Perhaps. Have you seen this video of how a small drone coming from bielarusse 300 km away and have visit all a russian airport near moscow and have discovered the very bad defense and prepared the destruction of the Mainstay ?
You can also imagine everyday raids of LANCET like munitions against f-35 from the chinese coasts.
Strips are not the only target on a airport.
There will be no US F-22s and F-35s in Taiwan when US has Kadena Okinawa which is 300 + miles from Taiwan. US will also have 2-3 Carrier battle groups. US will be there in a defensive role making Taiwan airspace a no-go zone for chicom fighters and staying away from hitting chicom territory. Now if chicoms stupidly strike a US base then the war becomes much different where US will take out every chicom naval ship, navy base and airbase being used for Taiwan.
 
US should put F-35Bs in hardened blast pens in SK and Japan. They could be game-changing even when PLA Rocket Force wrecks havoc on all US operated air-fields.
 
With this thread and the missiles. I've come to the conclusion that you aren't just clueless, you're trolling.
Nope serious. With all the US occupied runways destroyed by Chinese Rocket Force, F-35B with VTOL ability may come handy. USAF/USMC/USN all are part of the same force structure. But, I guess it goes beyond you....mate!
 
There will be no US F-22s and F-35s in Taiwan when US has Kadena Okinawa which is 300 + miles from Taiwan. US will also have 2-3 Carrier battle groups. US will be there in a defensive role making Taiwan airspace a no-go zone for chicom fighters and staying away from hitting chicom territory. Now if chicoms stupidly strike a US base then the war becomes much different where US will take out every chicom naval ship, navy base and airbase being used for Taiwan.
Defensive role in making Taiwan airspace a no go zone for Chinese FA? That's not a defensive role, that's an aggressive move aka it's a declaration of war. That's precisely how the Chinese will see it & react accordingly.

Your only saving grace is you've an unsinkable aircraft carrier in Japan with a formidable defence Force,otherwise you'd have to deploy your entire AC fleet in the seas off Taiwan although I suspect it'd eventually come to that .

If you play your cards right & get Filipino politicians in your pocket ( they're a notoriously corrupt lot) & also deploy Victoria Nuland type propaganda minus the broad out there or in other words, making it obvious , you'd manage to get Philippines not only to back your cause but also actively support the war effort.

Right now Marcos is hedging & setting off one superpower against another profiting off the goodies in the bargain though I suspect deep down like many Filipinos he doesn't quite like the Chinese. Whether that dislike apart from geopolitical considerations given Chinese & Philippines's areas of interest clash, morphs into something substantial only time will tell as well as how well the US plays it's cards.

This is going to be a war unlike anything either you've or the Chinese have fought since WW-2. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is 10x Desert Storm . The nature of the beast here is of an entirely different order.
 
Is it the announcement of a revolution in the USAF. These declarations and this new model sign the end of the f-35 as the work horse of the USAF.

Franck Kendall AIR FORCE SECRETARY :
Air Force leadership has "recently given our planners a nominal quantity of collaborative combat aircraft to assume for planning purposes. The planning assumption is 1,000 CCAs," Kendall continued. "This figure was derived from an assumed two CCAs for [each of] 200 NGAD platforms, and an additional two for each of 300 F-35s, for a total of 1,000."

Kendall continued by saying that the Air Force would become "unaffordable" if it continued to only buy current generation aircraft like the F-35A and F-15EX, as well as future NGAD combat jets, and that CCAs will offer additional "affordable mass." He added that "if we ask for too much [of the CCAs] we're gonna get bogged down trying to get what we need" and that the drones didn't need to be "gold-plated" to provide important additional operational advantages.