Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Spectra's miracles

The first miracle concerns the Rafale's Radar Equivalent Surface (SER). On this subject we have two contradictory declarations, coming from Dassault employees. And the surer statement is the more surprising one! Both may be true and the contradiction is probably due to the very different dates on which they were made.

The first statement was made by a Dassault engineer who said that the SER of the Rafale was between 1/10 and 1/20 of the SER of the Mirage 2000.

This statement can be combined with that of a SAAB engineer who said of the Gripen A that its SER was half that of a Mirage 2000 and one third that of an F-16 Block 42.

Now the SER of the F-16 Block 42 is known because it was the result of a SER reduction campaign that L.M. announced as being 1.2 m^2.

We deduce that the SER of the Mirage 2000 to which SAAB refers is 0.8 m^2 and the SER of the Rafale is 0.06 +/- 0.02 M^2.

All this in front and smooth of course.

Is this possible? The Anglo-Saxons don't believe it, for example in the "Command" game the Rafale has the same SER as the Typhoon of 0.47 m^2 close to the one SAAB indicates for the Gripen A (0.40).

The difference could come from SPECTRA.

The second statement is made by Bruno Revellin Falcoz, Director of the Rafale programme at its launch, then Technical Director of Dassault Aviation, then Vice President of Dassault Aviation, who says in a video that the SER of a Rafale seen from the front is comparable to that of a sparrow.

The statement is at 11' 25.

Is this possible? Nobody believes it! We are still in the orders of magnitude of the F-22, that is to say a SER of 0.0001 m^2 let's say 0.001 to be conservative. So of course it's head-on and smooth.

Where could this performance come from? We think of DEDIRA

The main part of Dedira is "electronic". Because I could learn that the demonstrator already flies, and it works pretty well. And if there was a structural modification, we would know about it. someone would have spotted it. And a Rafale in France is not easily hidden.

and

The information I have on DEDIRA, I have it... From above. A person I met in Mérignac. The information is therefore certain... But it's not much. Not enough to make an article, and it's extremely confidential. The rest are logical deductions.

So if there are no structural changes, we are thinking of course of SPECTRA. This would mean that active cancellation would have been greatly improved by DEDIRA.

But what about carry-overs?

In principle, the SER reduction method can also be applied to load. In fact, it seems that the Rafale makes a little trip to the anechoic chamber each time a new carrier is to be integrated. But as the carriers have a larger SER than a Rafale seen from the front, it is more difficult, from a processing point of view, and it requires more energy, because the return signal that we must cancel is stronger.

Just to set orders of magnitude, let's assume that the SER of the Rafale seen from the front without processing is 0.5 m^2 and that the payload has a SER of 5 m^2.

So the first treatment, which reduces from 0.47 to 0.06, would give a SER of 0.6 with the loads,

And the second treatment which increases from 0.47 to 0.001 would allow a SER of 0.01 with load.

 

[Rajput Lion]

View attachment 27607
Some of the data have been published in Russia, so you don't have to guess, The average power of the N 011 is only 1.2KW, and the Russian radar layout would be a huge waste of power

Because this in itself is the Indian's own fantasy, of course the British will not care you

Because this in itself is the Indian's own fantasy, of course the British will not care you

Bars also has Indian computers. Su-30SME is export version of Su-30SM. Our model is completely customized for us. Bars has been updated multiple times. So, don't go by these Russian export brochures, real performance of Bars is still classified.

Su-27 is n011m Rader，When we talk about empty weight, we add pilot weight and hydraulic fluid, lubricating oil, and artillery shells

Su-27M had N-011 radar while Su-37 had N-011M bars prototype. But, MKI has even lighter prototype because of slightly modern electronics over Su-37's version.

And yes, MKI's empty weight with pilots, engine oil, gun ammo is indeed 18.4 tons. Without the above 17.8 tons.

All sides make an offer for GTG separate from the main tender. We should not let anything stop MRFA. If F-35s are to be bought, it has to be separate from MRFA.

The F-35 is not participating in MRFA because of ToT requirements and Russian participation.

There are rumours that French want to establish production line for Rafale here for 90+27 jets for India and also to export Rafale elsewhere. This is at the cost of MRFA.

Americans are also considering making a similar offer for F-35.

Nothing viable this decade. The next decade, it will have to be Rafale F5 + AMCA combo. If a stopgap purchase of 2 squadrons of Su-57M or F-35 is possible, that would be fine too. The best option would be 2 squadrons of NGAD, but that's just a dream.

Rafale F5 could be a totally different jet(much bigger)and not just an upgraded Rafale. I earlier thought too that MRFA was a shoot between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4. But looks like it's going to be between Block-4 F-35 and Rafale F4.2. Lets see what IAF/GOI decide!

 

[LX1111]

You have some wrong information there. The detection range of Bars is at least twice that against small targets and 3 times that against Flanker class targets. And this is from 2007. The radar is heavy, but I don't see how that makes a difference.

I think you'd better check the public data and talk nonsense here, don't take Indian propaganda as truth，This is the relationship between radar detection range R and target size,

 

[LX1111]

The F-15C and Su-30MKI do 300+ m/s with combat load.

The F-15C's highest figure for climb is 342m/s, and it was achieved with a demilitarised aircraft.

As long as the jet as a TWR of above 1 and is a low drag airframe, it will have excellent climb. Weight is only relative to an aircraft's own design. The F-22 is heavier than both F-15C and Su-27, but it climbs faster than both. Su-30MKI was redesigned quite a bit for high performance.

The fastest climber among demilitarised planes is the Su-27.

F-15 Sets World Record But Then The SU-27 Takes It Away

Not to be outdone by the MiG-25, the U.S. Air Force wanted to prove that their F-15 was superior to anything the Russians flew.

duotechservices.com

While the F-15C has higher TWR at the same fuel fraction, the Flanker compensates for the difference with a better airframe design. What also give the Flanker an advantage is it can use its higher fuel load to use the afterburner more often, whereas the F-15C gets it higher TWR at the cost of rapid burning of its fuel, so it can't sustain combat as long as the Flanker. Also, the Flanker has better fuel efficiency than the F-15C when using afterburner.

The climb rate of the F 15 at sea level is1200Ft/s,Almost 360m / s,

 

[LX1111]

As long as the jet as a TWR of above 1 and is a low drag airframe, it will have excellent climb. Weight is only relative to an aircraft's own design. The F-22 is heavier than both F-15C and Su-27, but it climbs faster than both. Su-30MKI was redesigned quite a bit for high performance.

The fastest climber among demilitarised planes is the Su-27.

Again, you'd better check the data instead of talking nonsense here. The F 22 has an F 119 engine. Does MKI have one?What T / W more than 1, there is a good climb rate, what a big joke!

 

[LX1111]

While the F-15C has higher TWR at the same fuel fraction, the Flanker compensates for the difference with a better airframe design. What also give the Flanker an advantage is it can use its higher fuel load to use the afterburner more often, whereas the F-15C gets it higher TWR at the cost of rapid burning of its fuel, so it can't sustain combat as long as the Flanker. Also, the Flanker has better fuel efficiency than the F-15C when using afterburner

I laugh to death, f 15 how to beat MKI, is by climbing, and the side of the high fuel by the overloaded tank, the use of not more than 6G

 

[LX1111]

Failed Lockheed Martin F 16 carries no improvement potential for India, say IAF veterans

Despite the ovedrive by the US-based aerospace giant Lockheed Martin, no agreement for the F-16 Block 70/72 production was inked during the recently concluded visit of Prime Minister Narendra Modi to the US.

www.financialexpress.com

According to Air Marshal M Matheswaran (retd), former deputy chief Integrated Defence Staff, “F-16’s airframe is a third generation design that has outlived its utility. It cannot measure up to even 4th generation aircraft any more, despite all the avionics upgrades. Its components, aggregates, fuel efficiency, life cycle costs, will all be in the 3rd generation.”

And he's talking about the F-16 B70, not even B60. Just 'cause you make some minor changes doesn't mean it's a better jet

Indian Air Force usually rebates to evaluate fighter jets
A basic common sense is that the F 16 Block 60 is much better than 70 and was developed at the request of the UAE

 

[LX1111]

Sure. If you have the hardware for it, and bring out more information publicly. For example, the French say the Rafale's RCS is that of a sparrow without payload, the same as the F-22. Will some Chinese official make a similar public claim?


What if it is as stealthy as the F-22/F-35? Rafale's stealth can be constantly improved because it's electronic.

The IAF doesn't call it a next gen jet for no reason

Don't you think it's funny? You are evaluating fighter jets through Indian and French propaganda, if tomorrow India and France say MiG 21 over J 20, would you agree? No ability to think for themselves

 

[Optimist]

Don't you think it's funny? You are evaluating fighter jets through Indian and French propaganda, if tomorrow India and France say MiG 21 over J 20, would you agree? No ability to think for themselves

I's a fantasy. You only need to look at the Rafale and compare it to stealth aircraft and see what is in common design and features with both...even the super hornet LO features, shows the Rafale for what it is.

When China is built on Russian stuff. It's funny to watch them, tell you china are clueless about russian tech.

They aren't being offered US top tier stuff.example P-8I. Though it is still world class and probably the best available, other than the P-8A
there is no way they will be offered the F-35.
Stuff like this excludes them. Only tech the US doesn't care about, if Russia crawls over it.

India, Russia cut deal on payment delays, defense production

As a result of the economic restrictions, India has been unable to make payments to Russia since April 2019.

www.defensenews.com

Russia also agreed to support India’s defense industry through the economic initiative Make in India, according to a statement from the Indian Defence Ministry.

“The two Ministers discussed wide-ranging issues of bilateral defence cooperation, including military-to-military ties as well as industrial partnership,” the ministry said. “They also discussed the Russian defence industry’s participation in the ‘Make in India’ initiative and ways to provide further impetus to it.”

Russian original equipment manufacturers are to set up joint ventures with private defense enterprises in India to locally produce spare parts, systems and subassembly material, as well as to perform maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade work in order to keep Russian equipment operational for India’s military.
Russia also agreed to support India’s defense industry through the economic initiative Make in India, according to a statement from the Indian Defence Ministry.

“The two Ministers discussed wide-ranging issues of bilateral defence cooperation, including military-to-military ties as well as industrial partnership,” the ministry said. “They also discussed the Russian defence industry’s participation in the ‘Make in India’ initiative and ways to provide further impetus to it.”

Russian original equipment manufacturers are to set up joint ventures with private defense enterprises in India to locally produce spare parts, systems and subassembly material, as well as to perform maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade work in order to keep Russian equipment operational for India’s military.

 

[BMD]

Marine XQ-58 Valkyries Will Be Electronic Warfare Platforms For F-35s

Kratos says its stealthy XQ-58A drones cost $6.5M each with dozens now under contract and two other secret aircraft programs underway.

www.thedrive.com

 

[randomradio]

I think you'd better check the public data and talk nonsense here, don't take Indian propaganda as truth，This is the relationship between radar detection range R and target size,
View attachment 27611

I am talking about public data. The earliest number was 140-160Km against F-16, ie, 5m2. This was improved drastically in 2007, with a new processing upgrade, the Russian processor was replaced with an Indian one. Ever since then the radar has received constant upgrades. Do you really believe radars don't get upgrades?

This forum from 2005 talks about it:

N011M detection range?

what is the detection range of the n-011M bars-I? against a taret of RCS 1m^2?? could u also provide reference to this information please.

www.key.aero

The original radar detection range against Su-27 is 330Km.

When both MKI and F-16 B60 were introduced, experts had pointed out that both radars had similar range performance.

The last known figure from 2007 is the Bars can detect the F-16 and Mig-29, 5m2, from 180-200Km away. French fighter pilots also said that the Bars can detect a Mirage 2000 from 100NMI, ie, 180Km away, which they claim gives the MKI first look capability against the M2000. So that's a further upgraded figure. So, at least we have some idea that the Bars can detect a 1m2 target from 180Km today. This figure is from 2017 or 2018 or so.

180Km against 1m2 would mean 240Km against 3m2 target and 270Km against 5m2. So naturally, the MKI is getting a 200-250Km range missile to make use of its new detection range.

 

[randomradio]

There are rumours that French want to establish production line for Rafale here for 90+27 jets for India and also to export Rafale elsewhere. This is at the cost of MRFA.

Americans are also considering making a similar offer for F-35.

Such rumours have been around for many years now.

Rafale F5 could be a totally different jet(much bigger)and not just an upgraded Rafale. I earlier thought too that MRFA was a shoot between Rafale F5 and F-35 Block-4. But looks like it's going to be between Block-4 F-35 and Rafale F4.2. Lets see what IAF/GOI decide!

There's nothing about that right now. There were rumours about a Rafale NG more than a decade ago, but that's not being considered. Any airframe modernisation will take many years to finish though.

 

[randomradio]

View attachment 27612
The climb rate of the F 15 at sea level is1200Ft/s,Almost 360m / s,

That should be compared with similar data from a Su-27/30.

And such data doesn't necessarily reflect realistic combat conditions.

 

[randomradio]

Again, you'd better check the data instead of talking nonsense here. The F 22 has an F 119 engine. Does MKI have one?What T / W more than 1, there is a good climb rate, what a big joke!

Exactly. So TWR matters, not whether an aircraft is heavier or an engine is more powerful.

To have good climb rate you need TWR more than 1. And that's only accomplished with afterburners, and using afterburners requires fuel. With the same fuel fraction, say 0.12, the MKI has TWR of 1.2, but it carries more fuel for afterburner, and the F-15C has a TWR of 1.4. And the MKI compensates for that difference with more lift. The MKI's airframe has more lift than the F-15C, so it balances itself out. The TVC also decreases drag.

So the MKI has very high TWR, better lift, more fuel, TVC, which is enough to give it similar performance.

Even after 10 years, the Russians didn't bother to change the engine for Su-30SM when they already had better engines available. They bought the exact same jet as the IAF. They are only upgrading it now, after 20 years, which is a normal time for a major upgrade.

I laugh to death, f 15 how to beat MKI, is by climbing, and the side of the high fuel by the overloaded tank, the use of not more than 6G

Your translation software is bad, the sentence doesn't make sense.

 

[randomradio]

Indian Air Force usually rebates to evaluate fighter jets
A basic common sense is that the F 16 Block 60 is much better than 70 and was developed at the request of the UAE

60 and 70 are pretty much the same airframes.

During the MMRCA tender, the US demonstrated the F-16 B60 to the IAF. Both are bad.

Such a high ranking person who was the one who began MMRCA should know what he's talking about.

 

[randomradio]

Don't you think it's funny? You are evaluating fighter jets through Indian and French propaganda, if tomorrow India and France say MiG 21 over J 20, would you agree? No ability to think for themselves

Money talks, bullshit walks.

If the Indians and French say the Mig-21 is better than J-20 and then buy 200 jets each, then it's obvious they know something we don't. So always look at where the money flows.

The IAF has exercised with the F-22 and has received a lot of briefings of the F-35, and still say they want Rafale.

IAF Chief in Israel. The same person who signed the Rafale deal.

F-35 in India.

Would you agree the IAF knows more about the F-35 than PLAAF?

 

[Innominate]

Money talks, bullshit walks.

If the Indians and French say the Mig-21 is better than J-20 and then buy 200 jets each, then it's obvious they know something we don't. So always look at where the money flows.

The IAF has exercised with the F-22 and has received a lot of briefings of the F-35, and still say they want Rafale.

IAF Chief in Israel. The same person who signed the Rafale deal.
View attachment 27618

F-35 in India.

Would you agree the IAF knows more about the F-35 than PLAAF?

India has received no classified briefing of the F-35. Just because they allow some IAF official to get close to the F-35 doesn't mean a briefing took place. And US has not offered the F-35 to India. LM wanting to offer India the F-35 is not the US offering.

 

[Innominate]

US Never Offered India F-35 Jets, Unlikely it Would Share Technology: India’s Joint Defence Chief

Indian media has reported in the past that New Delhi has on several occasions expressed interest in acquiring the F-35 fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) from American defence giant Lockheed Martin. General Bipin Rawat, India’s chief of defence staff, says that the technology has never been offered by the US to India. Indian Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) General Bipin Rawat on Thursday scotched a longstanding rumour about India’s possible acquisition of American F-35 fighter jets, as he told a foreign policy conference that Washington had never offered New Delhi the multirole combat aircraft.


“I am not sure the US will share this technology. What they have offered us is a lower version of the F series,” Rawat said during a panel discussion at the ongoing Raisina Dialogue conference.

The panel, titled Future of Conflict: How Will Democracies Respond, also featured Senior Vice President of Lockheed Martin Tim Cahill, Australia’s Chief of the Defence Force General Angus Cambell, and General Koji Yamazaki, the chief of staff, joint staff of the Japan Self-Defence Forces.

Rawat’s remarks came in response to statements by Cahill, who touted the benefits of the American fighter jet to his co-panelists. “The F-35 is now cheaper than legacy fourth-generation fighters. Nations around the world are now buying more F-35s, based on the facts, merits, and costs of the system,” he said.

General Rawat pointed out during the discussion that the Indian Air Force (IAF) was “still exploring” its fighter jet options.

India’s quest for acquiring a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) hit a roadblock in 2018 after it reportedly withdrew from a joint India-Russia venture to manufacture Su-57 jets.

US Never Offered India F-35 Jets, Unlikely it Would Share Technology: India’s Joint Defence Chief - ELE Times

Indian media has reported in the past that New Delhi has on several occasions expressed interest in acquiring the F-35 fifth-generation

www.eletimes.com

India requested a classified briefing but it was denied and when word got out India started denying they requested a briefing.

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A - the air force version of the fighter that incorporates "conventional take-off and landing"
Ajai Shukla | New Delhi
Last Updated at February 14, 2018 20:40 IST

Business Standard learns the IAF top brass is formally requesting for a classified briefing by the F-35’s prime builder, Lockheed Martin, on the capabilities of the sophisticated, fifth-generation fighter developed under the US Joint Strike Fighter programme.
The US government has not formally offered the F-35 to India. A classified briefing would require formal clearance from the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) and the State Department. The grant of such a clearance would be an important first step towards permitting the sale of F-35s to India.
It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A – the air force version of the fighter that incorporates “conventional take-off and landing”, or CTOL. Another variant, the F-35B, incorporating “short take-off and vertical landing”, or (STOVL), has been developed for the US Marine Corps. A third version, developed for the US Navy, incorporates “catapult assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR).

Capability jump: IAF looks to buy fifth-generation F-35 fighter

It is learnt the IAF wants to procure 126 of the variant called F-35A - the air force version of the fighter that incorporates "conventional take-off and landing"

www.business-standard.com

 

[Optimist]

India has received no classified briefing of the F-35. Just because they allow some IAF official to get close to the F-35 doesn't mean a briefing took place. And US has not offered the F-35 to India. LM wanting to offer India the F-35 is not the US offering.

These guys get on a manic rant of cluelessness.. The customers also have security guarantees for protecting the F-35. They can't give a classified briefing. It was a walk-around point and look.

 

[Innominate]

These guys get on a manic rant of cluelessness.. The customers also have security guarantees for protecting the F-35. They can't give a classified briefing. It was a walk-around point and look.

"These people" want to believe their IAF chief received a briefing of the F-35 and wasn't impressed with it so he went with Rafale.

It's called coping for many folks in here who know their air force is inferior with their all 4th gen fighter fleet while their biggest enemy has 120+ J-20's.