Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion

[randomradio]

The real main point of the AWACS is the CS.

You have all these people who can focus full time on controlling the sky. That's why it's an Airborne Warning And Control System, instead of an Airborne Radar System.

Now, yeah, sure. The radar is important, even necessary. But you could say the same of the engines. It's the people -- with their skill and experience -- who are the heart of the AWACS.

Could you just fly the radar around, and have the people in a container on the ground, like drone operators? Yes, technically you could. But there would be issues with that, issues that could become very important during a war with a peer enemy. For a start, latency. When you control the airspace during a battle, you do not want your situational awareness to be ten seconds late because you're in California and your radar is over the Malacca Strait. The second is jamming. When you control the airspace during a battle, you do not want your situational awareness to be nonexistent because the enemy is operating some jammers.

And no, satellites are not the trump card. Everyone and their grandmother has anti-satellite weapons nowadays. Russia and China have demonstrated ASAT kills. So have the USA and India.

True, but our discusison wasn't centered around that.

Anyway that bit can be handled by the fighter jet pilots themselves. 'Cause wireless tech has advanced plenty enough to allow high bitrate communications.

We could have planned something like that with the FGFA, the two-seat one. Two of the two-seat versions would have given us four controllers. Combine them with 2 stealth ESM-capable MALE drones each, spread the whole pack out across a hundred kilometer wide area. And a HALE drone flying at an altitude of 30 or 40Km with a UHF or an L band radar. Those 4 MALE drones should be synchronised with the radars of the FGFA and the HALE for multistatic capability.

Anyway there's no point in being a controller if you are being corrected all the time, like the case with the F-35 and the E-3s in exercises, where the F-35s end up identifying threats far sooner than the AWACS can and end up generating a far superior picture of the battlefield beforehand. So the AWACS has already become the weak link in the chain. Personally I think centralised decision making is slowly on its way out. Which is likely why the Royal Navy is looking at bringing in drone AEWs to support the F-35's mission instead of bothering with a manned AEW&CS. This would transfer the "CS" bit into the hands of the F-35 pilots.

 

[Hydra]

Obviously 'cause it's not ready yet.

The main version will enter state trials only in 2022, induction beginning in 2024, and this is for the Russians. Everybody else will have to wait for 2 or 3 more years, or even to the end of the decade before they can place orders for the main version.

And simply walk away from the development of an aircraft with such tremendous potential, without a solid reason. ( Russians have a solid reason for not giving much workshare to Indians).
By the way is there any possibility for IN going F35 in limited numbers ? TEDBF is not stealth aircraft and there is no immediate plan for a deck based fighter development too.

 

[randomradio]

And simply walk away from the development of an aircraft with such tremendous potential, without a solid reason. ( Russians have a solid reason for not giving much workshare to Indians).

We backed out because they didn't offer enough ToT for the price we were paying. The money was also a bit too much. We would have received the same level of ToT whether we picked JV or license production, so it didn't make sense. Workshare was different, it didn't matter as much. The FGFA also had too much Russian influence and control over the project. Plus it would have increased Russian share of jets within the IAF to an unacceptable degree.

But yeah, the aircraft has tremendous potential. It can only be matched or exceeded by the FCAS, Tempest and NGAD. The jets in operational today can't match it. The Su-57 Mk2 will be very close to 6th gen. Which is why I'd like to see 2 or 3 squadrons inducted around 2030 to make up for the delays we will most definitely see with AMCA. The IAF also had plans of going for 63 Su-57s as an alternative to a JV or license production.

By the way is there any possibility for IN going F35 in limited numbers ? TEDBF is not stealth aircraft and there is no immediate plan for a deck based fighter development too.

Although that's the best option, the F-35B for the first two carriers, it's unlikely to happen. The US will have to make an offer for the F-35B before the TEDBF begins construction, but they are not going to offer anything of the sort until MRFA is over with.

An indigneous stealth design is only possible post-2040. We may even end up with FCAS or USN-NGAD because it won't be financially feasible to build next gen fighter jets only for 1 carrier. Or we need to plan for a family of CATOBAR carriers that will allow the production of enough fighter jets.

 

[BMD]

Not really. Because the main point of the AWACS is not its passive SA, but active, ie, the radar.

And the F-35 has a great radar and will be able to get far closer to the enemy.

 

[Bon Plan]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1404725991533129729

Cost ++ , Delay ++ , the never ending F35 story

Difficult F-35 engine sustainment contributing to higher than expected cost per flight hour​

Difficulty sustaining the engine on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is contributing to a higher cost per flying hour than originally...
www.janes.com

that the aircraft's cost per flying hour is USD 38,655 in 2021 dollars.

 

[randomradio]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1404725991533129729

Cost ++ , Delay ++ , the never ending F35 story

Difficult F-35 engine sustainment contributing to higher than expected cost per flight hour​

Difficulty sustaining the engine on the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is contributing to a higher cost per flying hour than originally...
www.janes.com

that the aircraft's cost per flying hour is USD 38,655 in 2021 dollars.

$44000 in 2018 to $38000 in 2021. They will be lucky to reach $30000 by 2025, let alone $25000 at this rate. No wonder the Pentagon is not happy.

It's always the engine that creates problems.

 

[RISING SUN]

Hawaii-Based F-22s Scrambled On FAA's Request But Nobody Will Say Why (Updated)​

A pair of F-22 Raptors were launched on an alert scramble out of Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam on Sunday at around 4:00 PM local time. A third F-22 joined the mission about an hour after pair's departure. A KC-135 was also launched to support the fighters. Hawaii News Now reports that the scramble, described as an "irregular patrol," was initiated at the request of the Federal Aviation Administration, which reported an 'incident,' although nobody is providing any clear information in regards to what that catalyst for the prolonged scramble mission was.
The 199th Fighter Squadron, a Hawaii Air National Guard unit that is part of the 154th Wing based at Hickam Air Force Base, provides the alert capability for the state, with at least two jets equipped with full armament and wing tanks are always on standby to scramble, along with at least one spare.

USAF

F-22 tearing out of Hickam Air Force Base.




Scrambling on request of the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is not uncommon. It happens for things like potential security situations aboard airliners or to provide eyes-on to stricken aircraft or even to investigate unidentified aircraft. You can hear just what this process is like in this past special feature of ours.



Hawaii's F-22s are also tasked with intercepting unknown or potentially threatening aircraft approaching the air defense identification zone (ADIZ) that surrounds the islands.

FAA


What's odd here is that usually there is fairly straightforward messaging regarding these events. Even when Russian bombers, fighters, and surveillance aircraft approach U.S. shores, the U.S. military is usually open about the encounters. As to why this intercept is not being addressed clearly is somewhat puzzling, but there could be national security issues involved that make issuing an immediate and detailed response problematic. This is likely the case based on a cryptic statement that The Star Advisor obtained:

The Hickam-based Air Force command added that the FAA requested that U.S. Indo-Pacific Command “conduct an irregular air patrol and the situation resolved, prompting the fighters and a KC-135 Stratotanker (a refueling plane) to return to base. We cannot discuss further specifics of the situation.”

USAF

Hawaii-based F-22s off a KC-135's wing.


Clearly, due to the strategic nature of the Hawaii and the stretches of water that surround it, it means that it is of high interest of foreign adversaries that have a presence in the Pacific. Still, its remote location make even long-range patrols a significant operation. This is largely a capability that is only executed by Russia, although Chinese long-range bombers and cargo aircraft have been venturing farther east in recent years.
We have reached out to the FAA and the Pacific Air Forces for more information and have submitted a Freedom Of Information Act request with the FAA regarding the scramble. We will let you know more when we get it.
UPDATE:
We recieved a reply from the FAA that is almost comical in its brevity and opaqueness:

FAA email


Contact the author: [email protected]

Hawaii-Based F-22s Scrambled On FAA's Request But Nobody Will Say Why (Updated)

The alert mission was described as an "irregular patrol" with no indication of what prompted it.

www.thedrive.com

 

[BMD]

Most likely an airliner's transponder went dead.

 

[A Person]

If it were an airliner, or a Russian incursion, they'd just say it was. If they're not saying anything, there is only one explanation:

 

[randomradio]

I'm guessing the Chinese showed off the H-20.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Most likely an airliner's transponder went dead.

For all you know , it could be an F-35 too . That should explain their silence. Embarassed Silence.

 

[Bon Plan]

 

[Hydra]

View attachment 20003

They have numerous victories in past, far more victories than any other aviation giants residing outside USA.

 

[Bon Plan]

They have numerous victories in past, far more victories than any other aviation giants residing outside USA.

The past is the past.
Grumman (for exemple) made a lot of very potent fighters, and now is vanished.
The F35 saga, as the Boeing 737MAX one, doesn't give confidence in the current control of these giants. Too big to be safe ?

 

[Hydra]

The past is the past.
Grumman (for exemple) made a lot of very potent fighters, and now is vanished.
The F35 saga, as the Boeing 737MAX one, doesn't give confidence in the current control of these giants. Too big to be safe ?

737max is a genuine case. They just screwed the existing design by adding bigger dia engine.
F35 case is different, its a new technology, the development of a new technology by throwing existing design philosophy is a challenging job.

 

[BMD]

The past is the past.
Grumman (for exemple) made a lot of very potent fighters, and now is vanished.
The F35 saga, as the Boeing 737MAX one, doesn't give confidence in the current control of these giants. Too big to be safe ?

Grumman is part of Northrop Grumman and made the B-2 and now the B-21.

 

[Bon Plan]

F35 case is different, its a new technology, the development of a new technology by throwing existing design philosophy is a challenging job.

They did a nice job with F22. Not the F35 case.

 

[Bon Plan]

Grumman is part of Northrop Grumman and made the B-2 and now the B-21.

You're right, but Grumman has vanished as an independant producer.
LM main success so far (technically and commercially) is F16. Problem : F16 is not a LM own design, but a General Dynamics one. The know how of GD was dilute in LM, too diluted may be.

 

[Hydra]

They did a nice job with F22. Not the F35 case.

They did a nice job with SR71, U2 & F117 too. The F35 is facing difficult because its a stealth aircraft designed to perform jack of all jobs, including a vertical take off.

 

[BMD]

They did a nice job with the UGM-133A too.