Mid Air Refueling Tanker : Updates & Discussions

Ankit Kumar said:
Since it's 2022. https://www.iai.co.il/p/a330-300bdsf

IAI has started to work on A330 cargo conversions too. So maybe they can apply the tanker kit on a330 too. Who knows.
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Nope , storyteller likes to keep things complicated. Tell me , would you bother to post what you did otherwise ? You wouldn't , right ? That's exactly the opposite of how storyteller operates. Spice it up , confuse , confound , deny , mislead , deflect etc then trip over the very maze of wires you've erected.
 
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So , in #97 we've a firm assertive assessment that 1 x A-330 would be leased for training & 6 x Boeing 767 would be converted with the assistance of IAI & that they were 2 mutually exclusive deals .

In #102 we've a different story . For more manohar kahaniyan follow storyteller , for explanations of manohar kahaniyan see #101.

It's 2022 & post 8 pm.
 
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randomradio said:
The tanker kit should be common in terms of usage for both.

There's news going around that Boeing doesn't want IAI to tamper with their aircraft though.
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So first hurdle, definitely not the last. After few years, some idiot will propose some other idea and IAF will start chasing that.

When something is required urgently, you need to purchase ir from market forom OEM, India is the only duffer country in world to do opposite to this basic funda.
 
Hydra said:
So first hurdle, definitely not the last. After few years, some idiot will propose some other idea and IAF will start chasing that.

When something is required urgently, you need to purchase ir from market forom OEM, India is the only duffer country in world to do opposite to this basic funda.
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The 767 deal will be the fastest. Anything else comes with a 3-year production cycle and an expensive bill. The IAI deal will cost us $150M, that's $900M. for the lot. But a new deal for 6 will cost us well over $2B.

The 767 conversion was for their own air force, but Boeing stepped in to kill it because they were competing with their own product for a deal in Israel, especially with American taxpayers footing the bill. But they have sold the same to Colombia and Brazil. It's a pretty good deal for India, it should have been done long ago. But is being done now because it's 2022.
 
Fatalis said:
indianexpress.com

To fill a critical gap, Indian Air Force looks to buy six mid-air refuellers

Process being revived after two failed attempts earlier over pricing disputes
indianexpress.com indianexpress.com
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The Indian Air Force (IAF) is set to revive the process of procuring six mid-air refuellers after failing to make any headway during two earlier attempts over the last two decades.

Highly placed Defence officials told The Indian Express that the request for proposal to procure six mid-air refuelling aircraft, also known as tankers, should be floated within six months to invite bids from interested Defence majors.

This is the IAF’s third attempt since 2007 to buy the tankers. Two of its earlier tenders were scrapped due to pricing disputes.

Officials said the IAF is looking to procure six “pre-owned” aircraft — these can be modified into tankers — to meet its requirement of refuellers so that they can serve for 25 to 30 years.

“Several global companies will let go of their older aircraft models in the next three to four years as they make the transition to advanced aircraft with new engines. There will be an adequate number of pre-owned aircraft available in the market which can be modified into tankers,” a Defence official said.

The IAF is looking for an Indian maintenance partner for the tankers.

Once inducted, the refuellers will fill a critical capability gap in the IAF’s inventory and will prove to be a vital strategic asset and force multiplier as they will allow fighter aircraft to stay airborne longer.

The six aircraft will be procured in addition to another tanker which the IAF would take on lease from interested global vendors to meet its training needs, the process for which has already been initiated. The IAF also provides limited refuelling efforts to the Navy’s MiG-29K fighter aircraft.

“It might take two to three years to start the deliveries of the tankers. Meanwhile, the one tanker to be leased will be used for immediate training requirements of the force,” the official said, adding that it cannot, however, be used in operations.

Currently, the IAF operates a fleet of six Russian IIyushin-78 tankers procured in 2003-04, but at any given time only three to four are serviceable. Their maintenance and serviceability issues were also brought out in an August 2017 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) that studied their operations from 2010 to 2016. The tankers were bought in 2003-2004 at Rs 132 crore per aircraft.
 
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It looks like the IAF finally understands that new aircrafts can't be procured so better to go with conversion of old aircrafts. HAL and IAI are already offering the 767.
 
What is the prospect of C-295 ? industry people said couple of times Govt/MoD have huge plans on it (Tata Jv) and not just for transport. I do not know much on the technical side.
 
Fatalis said:
All the three MTA participants have a refueller version and IMHO, small refueller is better than no refueller.
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The bigger refuellers are more important due to their greater amounts of transferrable fuel and long range. Smaller refuellers cannot be used the way refuellers are meant to be used because they themselves need a lot of fuel for their own needs. It's fine for tactical use, like a larger buddy refueller, but it's too expensive for that.

For example, the A330 carries 110T of fuel, the EC-390 has 23T. Just 1 MKI will swallow up all the transferrable fuel, whereas the A330 can fill up 4 MKIs twice and still have twice as much fuel as the EC-390. So, the bigger the jet, the more useful it is.
 
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marich01 said:
What is the prospect of C-295 ? industry people said couple of times Govt/MoD have huge plans on it (Tata Jv) and not just for transport. I do not know much on the technical side.
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Yes, but not for fighter jets.

MTA class refuellers are used, like the KC-130, but they are more suitable for non-fighter refuelling, like helicopters, UAVs, small transports etc. Even small fighters, like the LCA, F-16 and Gripen.
 
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randomradio said:
The bigger refuellers are more important due to their greater amounts of transferrable fuel and long range. Smaller refuellers cannot be used the way refuellers are meant to be used because they themselves need a lot of fuel for their own needs. It's fine for tactical use, like a larger buddy refueller, but it's too expensive for that.

For example, the A330 carries 110T of fuel, the EC-390 has 23T. Just 1 MKI will swallow up all the transferrable fuel, whereas the A330 can fill up 4 MKIs twice and still have twice as much fuel as the EC-390. So, the bigger the jet, the more useful it is.
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Ah, this make sense. Thank you for the explanation. Then it looks like we will get 6 pre-owned 767 and after that HAL - IAI will convert them into KC-767 standard.

Is there any chance of procuring A-330 MRTT post 2035 for our need of AWACS and refuellers?
 
Fatalis said:
Ah, this make sense. Thank you for the explanation. Then it looks like we will get 6 pre-owned 767 and after that HAL - IAI will convert them into KC-767 standard.

Is there any chance of procuring A-330 MRTT post 2035 for our need of AWACS and refuellers?
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Ideally speaking, we should made a deal with airbus on A330 line similar to what we made with dornier. We can use a330 for aways,refuellers,il76 replacement, Rec aircraft & future EW aircraft's. A common aircraft for every thing.

I don't know,whether we have any plan for EW aircraft or Rec aircraft ,but its utility is unparalleled in modern warfare. NATO achieving it's edge over adversary with these type of aircraft since 91 gulfwar.
 
Fatalis said:
Ah, this make sense. Thank you for the explanation. Then it looks like we will get 6 pre-owned 767 and after that HAL - IAI will convert them into KC-767 standard.

Is there any chance of procuring A-330 MRTT post 2035 for our need of AWACS and refuellers?
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Our most affordable option today is to lease 1 or 2 and covert existing airframes. But we still need to buy some A330s, 'cause it's still better than converted Boeings. In the long term, we will need stealthy tankers, the type the US is currently developing.

I don't know what the future of AWACS will be in India, but the US is giving is it up in exchange for a global satellite-based radar system by 2030. We may pursue another round of AWACS purchases before we also embark on the satellites trip. So the second time round we may go for 6 A330s after the converted Boeings.

India's options beyond the current plan are all speculative. We have to see how things go. I doubt even the IAF has seen that far ahead.
 
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randomradio said:
I don't know what the future of AWACS will be in India, but the US is giving is it up in exchange for a global satellite-based radar system by 2030. We may pursue another round of AWACS purchases before we also embark on the satellites trip. So the second time round we may go for 6 A330s after the converted Boeings.
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From what I read, the USAF is going for 27 E-7A Wedgetail AWACS which will replace the E-3 Sentry. The satellite based radar system will most probably work in conjugation with the AWACS.
 
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