Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

One needs to be optimistic about Indian Public sector cos.. however one can't deny the facts that we are still naive when it comes to top of the line military stuff.. nd we always hear trumpeting nd braggadocio statements from DRDO nd HAL chief a la AMCA first flight in 2025.... I mean seriously this is laughable..
I can bet my soul.. AMCA won't even see the day of light prior to 2030.. with induction to begin by afterwards...

for god sake.. same DRDO couldn't even provide an indeginous software designed radios to IAF in all these years leaving IAF clutching at straws.. now finally they hv resorted to provure it from abroad in wake of Kashmir crisis...
OFB Labs are synonymous for lethargy nd futility.. can't even come with a reliable assault rifle all these years...

We are just not there when it comes to critically advanced technologies.. we first need to accept it.. nd work hard to reach that level.. nd if it requires copying western technologies then let it be..
 
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Where is the money.What you say is true,but what you are asking of the IAF is to run 4 programs parallel.LCA mk1a,sukhoi upgrade,114 rafales as well as developmental funds for tejas mwf and amca,all the while rearming its SAM ground defence system with akash and costly barak 8,and also upgrading airbase infrastructure.
I doubt we have enough funds for all this.Possibly the biggest expenditure- mrca will be cut down to another 36 order.
Other solution is to divert funding from army and navy for a couple of years to gather funds.But i dont think tjose services will play ball.This is the curse of having import in dollars and maintaining a huge standing army with pensions and salaries.
Several reserve mechanized formations of indian army that were designed for 20th century grand battles need to be scrapped.These funds need to be directed towards airforce and the creation of a new rocket forces command under army which would have hundreds of srbms and nirbhay ala pla .Otherwise army is holding down the whole military balance with its huge revenue consumption but lack of standoff capability.

As i have mentioned earlier.. One cannot scorn of the need of MMRCA2.0 for IAF as well as for INDIAN AEROSPACE INDUSTRY to absorb western advanced technologies..

And as it's stands now.. IAF is pretty much adamant to get MMRCA2.0 Rolling than tejas mwf nd AMCA..(mmrca RFI issued to platform selection nd testing soon to begin) ...

You are expecting a professional airforce like IAF to shelve a tested and proven aircraft like rafale.. in lieu of an aircraft which is still in drawing boards with no future guarantee.. that it won't run into delays nd trouble.. keeping conscious of tejas mk1 delays..???

Umm i don't think so.. yeah we are indian nd patriotic in favour of indeginous stuff however keep urself in shoes of iaf..nd consider when u have to buy a smartphones will u go for untested nd shabby Indeginous brands.. or will rather go for proven nd tested foreign ones a la Samsung, Apple .. we need to be realistic.. if we don't choose indeginous stuffs when it comes to technology.. the how one can expect IAF to place all there bets on a platform Which is still in drawing boards??

When a soldier goes for fight.. what's eminent for him is the weapon he is carrying.. it doesn't matter to him wether it is indeginous or imported.. what is paramount to him is when he fires the trigger it should fire.. nd save his life.. in war soldier's only god is his weapon..

indian defence industry still don't have capability to deliver a top of the line aircraft with no caveats nd whistle bells.. we are behind west nd even china.. which is manufacturing aircrafts like hot cakes..

Strategic partnerships model could be the last ditch for Indian private Industry to foray into indian aerospace industry ending monopoly of despicable public cos.. it is paramount to future of aerospace industry..
 
As i have mentioned earlier.. One cannot scorn of the need of MMRCA2.0 for IAF as well as for INDIAN AEROSPACE INDUSTRY to absorb western advanced technologies..

And as it's stands now.. IAF is pretty much adamant to get MMRCA2.0 Rolling than tejas mwf nd AMCA..(mmrca RFI issued to platform selection nd testing soon to begin) ...

You are expecting a professional airforce like IAF to shelve a tested and proven aircraft like rafale.. in lieu of an aircraft which is still in drawing boards with no future guarantee.. that it won't run into delays nd trouble.. keeping conscious of tejas mk1 delays..???

Umm i don't think so.. yeah we are indian nd patriotic in favour of indeginous stuff however keep urself in shoes of iaf..nd consider when u have to buy a smartphones will u go for untested nd shabby Indeginous brands.. or will rather go for proven nd tested foreign ones a la Samsung, Apple .. we need to be realistic.. if we don't choose indeginous stuffs when it comes to technology.. the how one can expect IAF to place all there bets on a platform Which is still in drawing boards??

When a soldier goes for fight.. what's eminent for him is the weapon he is carrying.. it doesn't matter to him wether it is indeginous or imported.. what is paramount to him is when he fires the trigger it should fire.. nd save his life.. in war soldier's only god is his weapon..

indian defence industry still don't have capability to deliver a top of the line aircraft with no caveats nd whistle bells.. we are behind west nd even china.. which is manufacturing aircrafts like hot cakes..

Strategic partnerships model could be the last ditch for Indian private Industry to foray into indian aerospace industry ending monopoly of despicable public cos.. it is paramount to future of aerospace industry..

You are asking IAF to kill the indigenous fighter programme basically in your quest for 200 rafales.Will never happen.Govt wont let it.And thats good.Import cant be an answer forever.Base should always be indigenous ,top it up with import of high end planes.72 rafales will be our high end mmrca until tejas mwf takes over as the real mmrca we can actually afford.Airforce and army need to learn from navy,and if a little danda is what it takes,so be it.
 
You are asking IAF to kill the indigenous fighter programme basically in your quest for 200 rafales.Will never happen.Govt wont let it.And thats good.Import cant be an answer forever.Base should always be indigenous ,top it up with import of high end planes.72 rafales will be our high end mmrca until tejas mwf takes over as the real mmrca we can actually afford.Airforce and army need to learn from navy,and if a little danda is what it takes,so be it.

In an ideal world i would hv wanted tejas mwf to be a copy of rafale..nd IAF instead would have ordered 200+ tejas in different blocks... However if wishes were horses then beggars would ride...

Now where is tejas mwf??? In paper?? Yeahh.. when it will fly?? Any specific timeline?? What's the guarantee it won't run into delays nd troubles a la tejas mk1??
Who takes the blame if tejas gets delayed leaving IAF into a state of quagmire?? Do u want IAF to bet all their money in a plane which is still in thin air..?? Do HAL nd DRDO competent enuff to deliver a top of the line aircraft in given time frame?? Read time frame again.. coz iaf want aircraft in that particular timeframe..

RAFALE is reality mate ..it is capable, proven system nd breathing in air..nd if it is manufactured in India then we can absorb technology.. with private industry involved it could prove as major boon for aerospace industry...we can very well transfer those technologies to tejas nd AMCA...

There's a fine line between being rationally patriotic nd frivolously patriotic.. we can all wish for tejas mwf to beat the shit out of rafale.. however HAL nd DRDO doesn't invoke much confidence.. indian public sector Cos are just futile... Remember how a newly upgraded mirage2000 crashed when we lost two of our precious pilots with all fingers pointing to the HAL lax.. i can bring out numerous other incidents to corroborate my claims...

IAF won't simply trust on HAL or DRDO this time... Patriotism doesn't means u shove substandard equipment down the throats of armed forces to stroke inflated egos of indeginous stuff.. same happened with shabby insas.. army had to ditch it when it got involved in counter insurgency in kahsmir instead they picked old reliable ak47 for their rashtriya rifles..

Reality doesn't bridge with wishes... All we can do is wish.. however i consider those at helms in IAF to be fully conscious of challenges ahead .. wether it's rafale or tejas mwf.. i believe in IAF to come up with a solution that will safeguard the interest of our country..

MMRCA 2.0 is very much reality mate.. About tejas mwf nd AMCA?? Well lets hope this time HAL, DRDO jst don't fluff it up big time..
 
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It's just facts.

By 2030, we will be able to procure weapons at least half as much as the US does today. By 2040, as much as what they do today.

Let's look at central govt expenditure, which is where the defence budget comes from. This year it is well above $400B. It was a 13% growth from last year. And even if we assume a modest 9% growth rate all the way from now to 2040, which is extremely realistic, the govt's expenditure in 2030 will be $1T, and in 2040 it will be $2.3T.

Assuming the defence budget to have a 15% share of expenditure, we are looking at a defence budget of $345B in 2040. Assuming 25% goes to the IAF, their budget is roughly $86B, and with half going towards capital purchases, that's $43B. Whereas 200 Rafale would cost us $21B. In the US as well, half the air force's capital budget goes towards fighter jets. So what I've made is a very realistic assumption. The Pentagon recently signed a 3-year deal for 478 F-35s for $34B, so the economies of scale has made it cheaper, which means the Rafale will also not cost $21B if we make 200 of them a year. Different story whether we even want such a large defence budget, and naturally we wouldn't want Rafales all the way in 2040.

We ordered 140 MKIs for $3.5B when our defence budget was $10B in 2000. The first time we ordered MKI, we paid $1.5B for 50 when our defence budget was $7B. So it's not going to be anything special when we sign a $15-20B deal for 114 Rafales when our defence budget will be $70B in 2023-24. It's actually underwhelming and disappointing that we are spending so less for a long term project that will only start seeing significant money outlow 3 years after contract signature.

Point being, whatever we start after 2025 is going to be insignificant compared to the size of the defence budget, so people need to stop worrying about money. It's annoying to see people overreacting for ridiculously mundane stuff.
Jokes apart. Read this


The new definition of success: For emerging countries like India 5% is the new 7%, the reasonable standard for growth
 
Dont have
The DARIN III is practically a new plane. Everything's changed.

It has an AESA radar, MAWS, LWS, RWR, towed decoy, new glass cockpit, HOTAS, wide angle HUD, an advanced autopilot, and a whole lot of other stuff. And also a new engine and FBW. HAL may also upgrade the mission computer to IMA architecture, not sure yet though.

It's basically MMRCA-spec. The only thing missing is HMDS, only because it's unnecessary. And also an internal jammer, the airframe cannot handle one for whatever reason.

It is capable of performing SEAD/DEAD and will be able to control loyal wingman UAVs also, whenever that's made. Also, a whole new class of weapons.

The upgrade is bigger than what M2000 and Mig-29 went through.



All those from I srael?
 
If we buy 200 rafales we cant get lca mk1a/mk2 or amca.Sukhois will ve upgraded.Buying 200 rafales is end of our domestic aircraft funding.Wildly optimistic growth estimates being thrown around..huge operating costs of modern fighters being overlooked,as well as inflation and increasing personnel costs in a thriving economy.On top we are staring at reduced growth and middle income trap.

Along with the Rafales, we will get Mk1A, MWF and even a few squadrons of PAK FA if necessary.

Hell, MMRCA wasn't cancelled due to money anyway. We still ended up buying 36 Rafale for $9B and S-400 for $5.4B. And the MMRCA production contract was only $14B. And capex funds were also diverted towards the revenue budget after that. It's ridiculous to think we can't buy 114 Rafales all the way in 2023-24.

Reduced growth is temporary, more reforms will take care of that. And India is too big and diverse to fall under a middle income trap. Our digital economy itself is more advanced than that of many developed countries.
 
Don't u think all the required allocations would already been made by IAF nd MOD before venturing into MMRCA2.0, NAVAL MMRCA, Tejas mk2, sukhoi upgrade nd AMCA.. iaf squadrons no is dwindling to an appalling state.. we would be reduced to 19 sqaundrons instead of de riguer 42 squadrons.. IAF as mentioned by Air chief is still flying a 40 yrs old aircraft.. no one drives a car that old...

If for budget wasn't there.. MOD wouldn't have proceeded with MMRCA2.0 in first case.. earlier also MMRCA 1.0 was cancelled not because of shortage funds.. instead there was a dispute between HAL nd DASSAULT about remaining 108 jets to be manufactured in India.. with difference in men hours.. as well as liability hinged.. they could never finalize the price of 108 jets to be manufactured in India by HAL.

IAF has already invested 1.9 billion dollars in rafale BR in form of ISE upgraded rafale.. they wouldn't have invested that much amount for just mere 36 nos.. this does make rafale as prime contender to win MMRCA2.0 being conscious of logistics nd familiarisation factor of rafale with IAF..

MMRCA2.0 is really imperative to indian aerospace industry as well as IAF.. first for aerospace industry to come in realms of modern aircraft technology with newly created strategic partnerships models.. wether it will succeed or not.. will be seen in times to come.. however for IAF this 114 aircraft will serve as a life portion.. with sqaundrons strength mitigating every year as planned retirement approaches.. IAF will want MMRCA2.0 in their Armoury as soon as possible..

I have only one apprehension about MMRCA2.0.. no it is not money.. i believe we can absolutely afford 200+ rafales (36+114+57) in due course of time... However it is the untested STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP model which can go haywire.. with high probably of major roadblocks with multiple issues surfacing... Let's see how it pans out..

The SPM will be fine. It seems untested, but the OEM and SP will be more on the same page than it was with pure license production deals. What's more, it incentivises and focuses more on ToT.

Anyway IAF needs 2 domestic production lines and 1 foreign line (could also become domestic) delivering roughly 16 aircraft each from 2025, for a total of at least 25 squadrons, if we are to get to 42 squadrons by 2032, and then maintain that fleet all the way to 2040, after which the next batch of aircraft will require replacement. And this is for the IAF only. IN requires another 150 jets before 2035-40 as well, with 60 coming in before 2030. That's roughly 600-700 fighter jets.
 
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No we are not getting reduced to 19 squadrons.Su30mki alone is 14 sq to be.Mig29 with 21 new will be 4 sq,3 mirage2k,2 rafale,2 tejas mk1,4 tejas mk1a.So automatically we get 29 squadrons.Im leaving out 5 squadrons of jaguars which will be phased out over next decade without engines.

So even without mrca 2 we will have 30 plus squadrons.Then tejas mwf and rafale 2nd batch order of 36 more can bolster numbers.
MRCA 2 i agree can be useful for aerospace industry,but only if HAL is kept out of it.Money is the problem.
Immediate priorities should be order 18 sukhoi,21 migs and 83 lca mk1a.
2nd priority begin su30 mki upgrade programme.
After this evaluate if money is still there to go mmrca while still having enough to invest in tejas mk2 mwf.If yes,go both ( unlikely as tejas mk1a will 7 billion and sukhoi upgrade will take billions as well,though sukhoi upgrade is spread out over a decade).If money is not available then go tejas mwf and buy second batch of 36 rafales.Tejas program is more important than mrca 2 fir indian aerospace industry.

MKI will be 13 squadrons, or 13.5, not 14, unless 8 more aircraft are added to that half squadron. Also, strictly speaking, without considering old aircraft, all we have are 13 squadrons of MKI, 3 squadrons of M-2000, 4 squadrons of Jaguar and just 1 squadron of LCA, which can all go into 2035. So that's 21 squadrons. All the Mig squadrons and at least 2 Jaguar squadrons are gonna exit before 2035.

And to replace all those Migs and Jags and empty squadron positions, all we have to show for on paper today are 2 squadrons of Rafale and 1 squadron of LCA Mk1. The remaining 4 squadrons of Mk1A are yet to be signed, as are MWF, MMRCA, PAK FA etc.

So logic dictates, when it comes to new aircraft, the ones that are operational will get the highest priority, so that's MMRCA and Mk1A, in that order, followed by MWF and PAK FA.
 
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Where is the money.What you say is true,but what you are asking of the IAF is to run 4 programs parallel.LCA mk1a,sukhoi upgrade,114 rafales as well as developmental funds for tejas mwf and amca,all the while rearming its SAM ground defence system with akash and costly barak 8,and also upgrading airbase infrastructure.

All those are staggered over many, many years, hell over 2-3 decades for some of those. Everything is like half a bil to 1 bil a year.

Per year costs:
Rafale = 1.5B for 12 jets... starting from 2025
LCA Mk1A = 1B for 16 jets... starting from 2022
S-400 = 1B for 1 regiment... ongoing
Akash = 400M for 2 squadrons... ongoing
LCH = 200M for 12... starting from 2019
Ka-226T = <100M for 15... starting from 2019
LUH = 150M for 30... starting from 2020
AWACS/refuellers = 500M a year... starting from 2023
Super MKI = 800M... starting from 2023 or 2024 or 2025, whatever

All the above barely comes to $6B a year. IAF's capex is $6B a year today. And all this stuff will be staggered anyway, look at the dates again.

Most of the programs you keep hearing about will end long before the first MMRCA or MWF hits India. For example, LUH and Ka-226T will likely only see a 5 or 6-year delivery cycle. At 15 per year, what's 100 helicopters each. S-400 will also end by 2023. Akash Mk1 is pretty much at an end, and Mk2 also won't take too long. MRSAM for IAF is also nearing its end. All these are very short 5-year programs. Whereas Rafale, MWF etc are 15 to 20-year programs.

By the time Rafale and MWF start delivery from Indian lines, IAF's capex will be $12-15B, and will rise to about $30-40B by the time these programs end. So that 1.5B that Rafale will start consuming will be a small amount compared to the size of the overall defence budget by the time the program starts.

This talk of no money is absolutely ridiculous.
 
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I can bet my soul.. AMCA won't even see the day of light prior to 2030.. with induction to begin by afterwards...

Don't need to bet your soul for somethign that obvious. With current timeframe, ADA's timeframe, 2032 for IOC and 2035 for delivery of first IOC squadron. I'm expecting closer to 2037 for IOC and 2040 for FOC.

You can actually bet your soul for the first MWF squadron coming post 2030. ADA's timeframe is 2023 first flight, 2025 IOC and 2028 first squadron. :ROFLMAO:

You are asking IAF to kill the indigenous fighter programme basically in your quest for 200 rafales.Will never happen.Govt wont let it.And thats good.Import cant be an answer forever.Base should always be indigenous ,top it up with import of high end planes.72 rafales will be our high end mmrca until tejas mwf takes over as the real mmrca we can actually afford.Airforce and army need to learn from navy,and if a little danda is what it takes,so be it.

You can expect the IAF to be operating 100-150 Rafales by the time the first MWF comes in.


We are adding 400-450M people to our population over the next 35 years. Are you saying we can't tap our own domestic market for high growth?

Right now our people are ridiculously poor, but at the same time no one is adding more to the middle class than anywhere else in the world. And our middle class will become the primary driver for growth, not trade, not exports.

Do you think Mukesh Ambani is an idiot to have invested $40B into Jio?

Dont have




All those from I srael?

Mix of India, Israel and Europe.
 
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We are adding 400-450M people to our population over the next 35 years. Are you saying we can't tap our own domestic market for high growth?

Right now our people are ridiculously poor, but at the same time no one is adding more to the middle class than anywhere else in the world. And our middle class will become the primary driver for growth, not trade, not exports.

Do you think Mukesh Ambani is an idiot to have invested $40B into Jio?
First things first. No country has recorded 8-10% growth consecutively over more than a decade or two without being a major export economy. We aren't one.

That paper you've quoted from points out precisely that we will grow but not at stratospheric rates of 9% + continuously as China or Japan & RoK previously did but that our growth story will be much more subdued and stretched over a longer period of time. Modi plans to make India a 5 trillion USD economy by 2024 . I'm saying even if he gets us to 4 trillion, it'd be a huge achievement.

Mukesh Ambani plans to cut down RIL's portfolio of oil, gas & petrochemicals to less than a third of his company's portfolio by 2047. Yes, you heard it here first. Secondly , he plans to utilise his digital empire to become the number one content provider apart from becoming the number one retailer in the B2C segment & of course the number data service provider.What's more he's going to tie up with Alibaba soon for a massive thrust into the B2B segment in India. Once he achieves this, he's going to utilize this as a springboard to achieving the same in Africa and then the rest of Asia before moving on to Europe and so on . You've heard this first up here too. But hang on, what are the plans for manufacturing all those consumer durables like say electronics ? Nil. Zero. Nada. He's going to source them from the cheapest source. Read China. Hence Alibaba. Where's the money for all this going to come from? Gradual divestment of the oil, gas & petrochemical segment in RIL's portfolio.

And you have your trust imposed in a bania citing how this trader's success is going to propel the Indian economy into stratospheric heights where in three decades from now we'd have an economy which will be able to support our ambitions to achieve procurement / manufacturing of 200 Rafales in a year.

You know what, you're right. While most of the advanced nations would be experimenting with 7th Gen TDs, we'd be manufacturing 200 x 4.5 generation FA in DRAL MIHAN Nagpur a la the MiG 21 bis we churned out in the late 80's when we should've been manufacturing either the M2K or MiG 29. Or even" developing the LCA full steam ahead after a successful HAL - Marut. "
 
First things first. No country has recorded 8-10% growth consecutively over more than a decade or two without being a major export economy. We aren't one.

That paper you've quoted from points out precisely that we will grow but not at stratospheric rates of 9% + continuously as China or Japan & RoK previously did but that our growth story will be much more subdued and stretched over a longer period of time. Modi plans to make India a 5 trillion USD economy by 2024 . I'm saying even if he gets us to 4 trillion, it'd be a huge achievement.

We do not have to grow at 9 or even 10%, we only need 7 or 8% growth. But what has to rise is our personal income rates. Personal income is where tax growth comes from. And that's where the defence budget comes from.

When an additional 400M people entering the middle class pay taxes of Rs 10,000 per year, we get an additional $60B from income tax alone. Indirect tax rate could be even higher. Now if some of these 400M people are billionaires, then excellent, we only need a few hundred there. And this is separate from the other kinds of value they could add to the economy.

Mukesh Ambani plans to cut down RIL's portfolio of oil, gas & petrochemicals to less than a third of his company's revenues by 2047. Yes, you heard it here first. Secondly , he plans to utilise his digital empire to become the number one content provider apart from becoming the number one retailer in the B2C segment. What's more he's going to tie up with Alibaba soon for a massive thrust into the B2B segment in India. Once he achieves this, he's going to utilize this as a springboard to achieving the same in Africa and then the rest of Asia before moving on to Europe and so on . You've heard this first up here too. But hang on, what are the plans for manufacturing all those consumer durables like say electronics ? Nil. Zero. Nada. He's going to source them from the cheapest source. Read China. Hence Alibaba.

All that's fine by me. I don't really care where the TV comes from, RIL is gonna get taxed in India anyway.

But I'm more interested in what our people do for their own careers. That's where the real money is.

The govt's plan is to send millions of people to foreign shores on short-term high-value consultation work with $100,000-$150,000 a year salaries. So if we have an average of 10 million people earning $100,000 in the US, EU, Japan, China etc on short term basis, the country earns forex of $1T a year.

Imagine if the number climbs to 20 million or 30 million, peanuts for India to send that many on short-term visas via mode 4. We will be getting that many college graduates every year.

Value added service is much better than value added goods.

And the Chinese are going to be too rich to be making that many TVs anyway. In the next 5 years, they as well as the rest of the advanced world are going to face a massive labour shortage, and India is expected to supply.

We are way off topic though.

That $40B that Ambani spent on Jio is for India only, not the rest of the world.

And you have your trust imposed in a bania citing how this trader's success is going to propel the Indian economy into stratospheric heights where in three decades from now we'd be able to achieve procurement / manufacturing of 200 Rafales in a year.

Less than 2 decades.

And you have your trust imposed in a bania citing how this trader's success is going to propel the Indian economy into stratospheric heights where in three decades from now we'd be able to achieve procurement / manufacturing of 200 Rafales in a year.

You know what, you're right. While most of the advanced nations would be experimenting with 7th Gen TDs, we'd be manufacturing 200 x 4.5 generation FA in DRAL MIHAN Nagpur a la the MiG 21 bis we churned out in the late 80's when we should've been manufacturing either the M2K or MiG 29. Or even" developing the LCA full steam ahead after a successful HAL - Marut. "

200 Rafales, 200 AMCAs, 200 FCAS, who cares about the type, the magic number is 200.

Maybe even 200 Starship Enterprises.
 
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I have high regards for Ruchir Sharma. But since last few years his articles about Indian economy appeared to be biased with his political views. Personally I think India will easily achieve 8+ % growth after the upcoming recession is over. By that time this NPA mess would have been cleared and Indian companies will have a fresh start. India is yet to witness the growth generated by boom in infrastructure and consumer spending in luxury segments. We will witness both over next 15 years.
 
It's just facts.

By 2030, we will be able to procure weapons at least half as much as the US does today. By 2040, as much as what they do today.

Let's look at central govt expenditure, which is where the defence budget comes from. This year it is well above $400B. It was a 13% growth from last year. And even if we assume a modest 9% growth rate all the way from now to 2040, which is extremely realistic, the govt's expenditure in 2030 will be $1T, and in 2040 it will be $2.3T.

Assuming the defence budget to have a 15% share of expenditure, we are looking at a defence budget of $345B in 2040. Assuming 25% goes to the IAF, their budget is roughly $86B, and with half going towards capital purchases, that's $43B. Whereas 200 Rafale would cost us $21B. In the US as well, half the air force's capital budget goes towards fighter jets. So what I've made is a very realistic assumption. The Pentagon recently signed a 3-year deal for 478 F-35s for $34B, so the economies of scale has made it cheaper, which means the Rafale will also not cost $21B if we make 200 of them a year. Different story whether we even want such a large defence budget, and naturally we wouldn't want Rafales all the way in 2040.

We ordered 140 MKIs for $3.5B when our defence budget was $10B in 2000. The first time we ordered MKI, we paid $1.5B for 50 when our defence budget was $7B. So it's not going to be anything special when we sign a $15-20B deal for 114 Rafales when our defence budget will be $70B in 2023-24. It's actually underwhelming and disappointing that we are spending so less for a long term project that will only start seeing significant money outlow 3 years after contract signature.

Point being, whatever we start after 2025 is going to be insignificant compared to the size of the defence budget, so people need to stop worrying about money. It's annoying to see people overreacting for ridiculously mundane stuff.
I'm really bored of this overoptimistic story of how defence budget will be so huge in the 'future' and how we will be able to afford these overpriced numbers.

Let's take a look at the last 5 years of CAPEX change under this Govt.
Budget 2013-14 BE : Rs 86685 crores
Budget 2018-19 RE : Rs 93800 crores


Screenshot_2019-08-21 http 10 22 81 193 unionbudget dg asp txtcsrf_token=fc3a8b2320 - dg27 pdf.png
Screenshot_2019-08-21 DGAllAndDemandWise - dg20 pdf(1).png


Growth of 7.5% in 5 Years !

Overall budget increased to keep up with inflation. But OROP and pay commission took it all. ie, Modernization budget was constantly going down in real terms.

They are struggling to pay for ongoing orders. So, Pardon me for being skeptical about the promised land.
 
I'm really bored of this overoptimistic story of how defence budget will be so huge in the 'future' and how we will be able to afford these overpriced numbers.

Let's take a look at the last 5 years of CAPX change under this Govt.
Budget 2013-14 BE : Rs 86685 crores
Budget 2018-19 RE : Rs 93800 crores


View attachment 9590View attachment 9591

Growth of 7.5% in 5 Years !

Overall budget increased to keep up with inflation. But OROP and pay commission took it all. ie, Modernization budget was constantly going down in real terms.

Both Falcon and I have explained this.

There will be no significant growth in the defence budget until stuff really gets going after 2022. Until then it's all about just making do with emergency purchases like Rafale GTG, S-400 etc. Same with the K9 Thunder and Biho from S Korea, also the upcoming T-90MS deal with Russia.

Until 2022, or even 2023, the main focus is getting our growth back on track and committing to reforms while maintaining minimum deterrence necessary with China while maintaining an overwhelming superiority with Pakistan.

All the mega deals with license production are centered around signing contracts at the end of this term and then paying for it in the next term.

The only major production deals that were pushed through under Modi-1 were navy production deals for frigates and other ships, nothing more. You can see that even the Mk1A, Ka-226 and LCH contracts have been pushed to the second term, whereas NUH, NMRH etc have been pushed to the 3rd term, leaving space only for small ticket emergency purchases like 24 MH-60Rs.

That's also how long it's expected for the private civilian industry to get back on track and start contributing to the economy, which will then allow the govt to free up their spending and focus on more central govt oriented stuff like mega infrastructure projects and defence. That's why even all the nuclear reactor deals are still pending, as is the river-linking project.

You wanna look at defence spending, you won't get anything by looking at the last 2 or 3 years, you need to look at what's happened over a 20-year period.

You think the govt is retarded to announce so many tenders?
 
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Both Falcon and I have explained this.

There will be no significant growth in the defence budget until stuff really gets going after 2022. Until then it's all about just making do with emergency purchases like Rafale GTG, S-400 etc. Same with the K9 Thunder and Biho from S Korea, also the upcoming T-90MS deal with Russia.

Until 2022, or even 2023, the main focus is getting our growth back on track and committing to reforms while maintaining minimum deterrence necessary with China while maintaining an overwhelming superiority with Pakistan.

All the mega deals with license production are centered around signing contracts at the end of this term and then paying for it in the next term.

The only major production deals that were pushed through under Modi-1 were navy production deals for frigates and other ships, nothing more. You can see that even the Mk1A, Ka-226 and LCH contracts have been pushed to the second term, whereas NUH, NMRH etc have been pushed to the 3rd term, leaving space only for small ticket emergency purchases like 24 MH-60Rs.

That's also how long it's expected for the private civilian industry to get back on track and start contributing to the economy, which will then allow the govt to free up their spending and focus on more central govt oriented stuff like mega infrastructure projects and defence. That's why even all the nuclear reactor deals are still pending, as is the river-linking project.

You wanna look at defence spending, you won't get anything by looking at the last 2 or 3 years, you need to look at what's happened over a 20-year period.

You think the govt is retarded to announce so many tenders?
Its hilarious to even consider that MoD has some grand plan for future. Wait till 2022, boom. :LOL: Even after watching all the failure to procure over the years.

I repeat, last five years CAPEX per year increase was 1.5%. While Inflation ~4%.

They did not buy anything because there is not enough money. There is not have enough money because OROP and pay commission ate it. You can't just write in more money to CAPEX because there are other 'popular' priorities waiting like MGNREGA or infra.

You think the govt is retarded to announce so many tenders?
Yes, Just like the last govt there was no shortage of tenders.
 
Its hilarious to even consider that MoD has some grand plan for future. Wait till 2022, boom. :LOL: Even after watching all the failure to procure over the years.

I repeat, last five years CAPEX per year increase was 1.5%. While Inflation ~4%.

They did not buy anything because there is not enough money. There is not have enough money because OROP and pay commission ate it. You can't just write in more money to CAPEX because there are other 'popular' priorities waiting like MGNREGA or infra.

Once private spending picks up, govt spending can focus on other areas.

Yes, Just like the last govt there was no shortage of tenders.

No. All of UPA's big ticket tenders were from the 9% growth era. Like MMRCA from 2007. How many tenders did UPA start after 2011, when they destroyed the economy? The only tenders that showed up then were the cheap ones, and simply repeat of earlier failed tenders.

All the new tenders announced under Modi are all big ticket tenders under a new DPP process where even OEMs and private industry are involved. But then you think the govt is retarded to do all this? A better way is to simply not announce the tenders at all, like UPA after 2011.