MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

I know you are a USA phobic, you will find excuses to ridicule even f22.

Not at all. I like the US. I just prefer to make an objective analysis instead of just supporting all things 'Murica.

For example, I'd like to see India working with the US in the future helicopter program, like Apache and Chinook successors and of course directly collaborating with the US in naval systems, like carriers. I also would like to see us buying F-35Bs and operating them from our LHDs. There are plenty of force multipliers that we definitely should buy from them, like the P-8I, Sentinel, Guardian and Triton. All their current helicopters are good as well, S-76, MH-60, Apache and Chinook, and we should definitely buy more of them.

But anything to do with the IA and IAF's strategic systems and our border with Pakistan and China, the US must not touch no matter what 'cause they have anti-Indian agenda there and will definitely create new problems for us. For example, their ongoing agenda of forcing us to stop the purchase of S-400 goes directly against our interests.

Otoh, the IN collaborating with them to a certain extent is fine. We have to play in the same area and can't afford to sink each other's ships and subs after all.

And I definitely do not want anything that even the IAF has called junk, which includes all the teens, and all their old stuff that they themselves are replacing. So everything that some members have been recently promoting, like buying their fighter jets for the IAF or becoming a treaty ally, are a definite no. American tactical and global communication systems must be a strict no as well.

If the US was actually serious about having very close relations with India, then they would be offering us their nuclear submarine in exchange for cancelling the Russian one, or allowing us to invest in the PCA in exchange for FGFA, and similar. Our requirements are alike after all. But no, they just want us to sell their junk and create problems with our neighbours.

They are absolutely untrustworthy. We are 'aligned' as long as we have similar interests, nothing more.

 

[Lolwa]

EW and radar of F 18 is superior to rafale and If F 35 is offered we should buy it...as it is superior to anything out there.

Only growler. Standard super hornet is inferior to spectra rafale on every parameter. For the IAF only f15ex may have comparable ew to rafale among the MMRCAs. F35 for navy is a possibility not air force because we have bought s400 so we can negotiate for f35b's and convert to of our future LHD's into aircraft carriers..

 

[Aurora]

Russia in its desperation of money may offer su57. Then this circus of MOD called as MMRCA 2.0 would become much more interesting. And no, please don't expect this circus to end, because the show must go on.

 

[Nikhil]

Russia in its desperation of money may offer su57. Then this circus of MOD called as MMRCA 2.0 would become much more interesting. And no, please don't expect this circus to end, because the show must go on.

If russian mange to deliver on engine front than we surely need to go for felon as it is superior to all 4.5th generation fighters out there.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Not at all. I like the US. I just prefer to make an objective analysis instead of just supporting all things 'Murica.

They are absolutely untrustworthy. We are 'aligned' as long as we have similar interests, nothing more.

And our interests are converging only on China. From WTO, to Crimea, to many other things we are opposing parties. So we need to have our options and have redundancy in platforms acquired in case...

Also co-operation in Ocean Sea Lines of Communication Surveillance and ASW operations , our interests are tied up for a definitive long term period. So investing in P8I, MH60R and UAVs isn't bad. But having US fighter jets in airforce, that will be a problem.

Just a reminder, forget how PAF F16s operate. Just remember the conditions put on the relic INS Jalshwa we operate. Are we ready to have such conditions on all our airbases ?

Russia in its desperation of money may offer su57. Then this circus of MOD called as MMRCA 2.0 would become much more interesting. And no, please don't expect this circus to end, because the show must go on.

Engines have been an issue, so has been the AESA radar. If the Russians somehow manage to fix these two things. Then why not.

 

[Hydra]

If russian mange to deliver on engine front than we surely need to go for felon as it is superior to all 4.5th generation fighters out there.

At the end of the day, IAF may end up in running for un used second hand jet from abroad during next crisis.
Pathetic, the new jet requirements for jets pop-up after kargil war due to the mediocre performance of existing jet over high altitude terrain while performing bombing mission. Exactly 21 years has passed, still IAF didn't had the desired jet, and we are still years away from signing the deal.

 

[Aurora]

If russian mange to deliver on engine front than we surely need to go for felon as it is superior to all 4.5th generation fighters out there.

Apparently they have started the production of felon with new engine.

 

[randomradio]

Apparently they have started the production of felon with new engine.

A fully configured next gen Su-57 is expected to fly only around 2022 and enter state tests in 2024, followed by introduction in 2025. So it's still some time away from being called a prototype. Although the engine is equipped on a Su-57 prototype.

If we are interested in the Su-57, it will be based on the new model. However the Russians will have to make an export grade model, and that may take a bit more time. So a contract between 2025 and 2027 should give us our first squadron before 2030.

But this has no relation to MMRCA.

 

[_Anonymous_]

A fully configured next gen Su-57 is expected to fly only around 2022 and enter state tests in 2024, followed by introduction in 2025. So it's still some time away from being called a prototype. Although the engine is equipped on a Su-57 prototype.

If we are interested in the Su-57, it will be based on the new model. However the Russians will have to make an export grade model, and that may take a bit more time. So a contract between 2025 and 2027 should give us our first squadron before 2030.

But this has no relation to MMRCA.

Ah yes, 2022 !! I wonder what more goodies does 2022 have in store for us.

 

[_Anonymous_]

More Rafales is a $5B investment, and LCA is also a $5B investment. So I don't think it's possible this year for GoI to make a $10B investment in 1 year for the IAF alone. Especially when a contract is also required for 33 Russian jets.

As the CDS said, a follow-on order for Rafale will be initiated after the first 36 are delivered, so 2022 for this deal is good enough.

Au contraire, like all typical GoI's this one too acts only when it's been kicked both in the crotch & *censored*. The purse strings for most of the high profile demands of the armed forces will now be met. Not all of them, of course. But certainly the most critical of them, particularly aligned to the armed forces doctrine of waging war on 2 fronts.

Everything from what the CDS said to conventional wisdom was applicable to the pre Galwan world. Just as the world economy including the Indian economy will have a marker as the pre & post Chinese virus era, so will the armed forces have a marker as the pre & post Galwan era.

You can expect the order for 36 additional Rafales to materialise anytime between today & 2022.

 

[randomradio]

Au contraire, like all typical GoI's this one too acts only when it's been kicked both in the crotch & *censored*. The purse strings for most of the high profile demands of the armed forces will now be met. Not all of them, of course. But certainly the most critical of them, particularly aligned to the armed forces doctrine of waging war on 2 fronts.

Everything from what the CDS said to conventional wisdom was applicable to the pre Galwan world. Just as the world economy including the Indian economy will have a marker as the pre & post Chinese virus era, so will the armed forces have a marker as the pre & post Galwan era.

You can expect the order for 36 additional Rafales to materialise anytime between today & 2022.

While I agree with that, the issue is also that of priorities. While the Rafales are coming, and more Rafales are definitely needed, but at the same time there are other gaping holes all over the place that are of equal or greater priority, particularly concerning infantry modernisation, including finishing raising the MSC and modernising it. I feel that if given the choice between more Rafales and the MSC, the MSC should have greater priority. While both may roughly cost the same, the Rafales will take many years to come while the MSC can be raised very quickly and will play a much bigger part.

If the govt have their priorities right, they should do both. They can place an order very quickly for 36-54 more Rafale F3R and have them delivered by absorbing all the unutilised production possible, in a 24/7 basis. The offsets generated can then pay for the development of K10 as well. In hindsight, when the IAF asked for 4 squadrons instead of 2, the govt should have relented. At the very least, 36 more should have been part of follow-on options. So, yes, I do hope they place an order for 36 more by next year at the very least. Otoh, Rawat's plan was to work on a new order of 36 for 2023.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

While I agree with that, the issue is also that of priorities. While the Rafales are coming, and more Rafales are definitely needed, but at the same time there are other gaping holes all over the place that are of equal or greater priority, particularly concerning infantry modernisation, including finishing raising the MSC and modernising it. I feel that if given the choice between more Rafales and the MSC, the MSC should have greater priority. While both may roughly cost the same, the Rafales will take many years to come while the MSC can be raised very quickly and will play a much bigger part.

If the govt have their priorities right, they should do both. They can place an order very quickly for 36-54 more Rafale F3R and have them delivered by absorbing all the unutilised production possible, in a 24/7 basis. The offsets generated can then pay for the development of K10 as well. In hindsight, when the IAF asked for 4 squadrons instead of 2, the govt should have relented. At the very least, 36 more should have been part of follow-on options. So, yes, I do hope they place an order for 36 more by next year at the very least. Otoh, Rawat's plan was to work on a new order of 36 for 2023.

The SAM modernisation plan for 3 forces which is necessary itself will be a big burden on CAPEX for next 5 years. S400, MRSAM, Akash , QR SAM , MANPADs and SHORADS.

 

[Bon Plan]

More Rafales is a $5B investment, and LCA is also a $5B investment. So I don't think it's possible this year for GoI to make a $10B investment in 1 year for the IAF alone. Especially when a contract is also required for 33 Russian jets.

As the CDS said, a follow-on order for Rafale will be initiated after the first 36 are delivered, so 2022 for this deal is good enough.

whether in the LCA case or Rafale case, the $5B invesment is to be spent on a 6 year period : a first deposit with the firmed order, 3 whites years for long lead time items, then the delivery spread on 3 years (or more, or less...).
10 $B on 6 years is acceptable for India economy.

 

[Bon Plan]

F 18 Blok 3 will be good deal for IN. It's more advance than rafale ,US should offer F 35 for IAF instead of F 15 EX and deal will be signed in no time.

LOL.
They need a dedicated Elecronic counter measures bird to help for deep strike.
Rafale don't.

 

[randomradio]

The SAM modernisation plan for 3 forces which is necessary itself will be a big burden on CAPEX for next 5 years. S400, MRSAM, Akash , QR SAM , MANPADs and SHORADS.

Some of those will have their budget allocations done already and will be part of the existing capital budget.

So whatever's next has to come from outside the budget, like the expected 36 more Rafale.

(Btw, a long time ago I posted the breakup of the Akash battery for the army, I think that's wrong. The army's battery is not the smallest unit, it's actually many times larger than the IAF's battery. So if we assume each army Akash battery has 48 ready-to-fire missiles, then we are talking about each army battery equivalent to 4 IAF batteries. It could also be bigger than that, say twice as big, which will make 2 groups in each battery, which actually makes the most sense. So I'm not sure about the actual size of an army Akash battery. I'm assuming each battery has 2 groups of 4 fire units each, which is equal to 48 IAF-sized batteries for each regiment.)

 

[Bon Plan]

It's purely between Rafale, F16 , Gripen E/F and Super Hornet.

It's purely between Rafale and SH18.
F16 is out for many reasons.
Gripen is to near a Tejas and Tejas Mk2 : no way for it. Low end Indian fighter will definitively be Tejas.

 

[Bon Plan]

If russian mange to deliver on engine front than we surely need to go for felon as it is superior to all 4.5th generation fighters out there.

Russia is playing a strange game between the support to India one one hand, and the support to Pk on the other hand :

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www.defenseworld.net

 

[randomradio]

whether in the LCA case or Rafale case, the $5B invesment is to be spent on a 6 year period : a first deposit with the firmed order, 3 whites years for long lead time items, then the delivery spread on 3 years (or more, or less...).
10 $B on 6 years is acceptable for India economy.

Individually it's not much. But we have to modernise both the army and the air force, and we may see the army getting higher priority. The army needs better equipment, both infantry and artillery, and also their modernisation will be faster due to the shorter production to delivery cycle.

 

[Sathya]

Here what India need to do in my opinion. IAF should buy 2 Sqd worth of F 15EX ( 36 or 42 to be precise depending on Sqd size ) and go for 2 Sqd more of rafale( 36 ) . IN should go for F 18 Blok 3. Buy directly from supplier instead of licencing.

HAL meanwhile should continue with its upgradation of MIG , mirage and Sukhois.

Do you even think before posting ?

If radar and EW are your reason s..
We should choose indigenous platform.. We can update 4 x times.
While Rafale probably 1 MLU,, F18 not sure.. Should be cheaper though..

 

[Sathya]

And our interests are converging only on China. From WTO, to Crimea, to many other things we are opposing parties. So we need to have our options and have redundancy in platforms acquired in case...

Also co-operation in Ocean Sea Lines of Communication Surveillance and ASW operations , our interests are tied up for a definitive long term period. So investing in P8I, MH60R and UAVs isn't bad. But having US fighter jets in airforce, that will be a problem.

Just a reminder, forget how PAF F16s operate. Just remember the conditions put on the relic INS Jalshwa we operate. Are we ready to have such conditions on all our airbases ?


Engines have been an issue, so has been the AESA radar. If the Russians somehow manage to fix these two things. Then why not.

Read somewhere Jalswa is given for training purpose only even with complement helicopters at the throw away price.

Similar to 1 USN Romeo along with MH/60 orders .

Only for training purpose cannot be used for actual war.