Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Always expect lolwa to come up with innovative ideas.
BTW JF17 is a decent dogfighter in the category of Mig29, M2000 and F16. Its way too superior to Mig 21.
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any evidence of that?
We all may expect it is more agile than Mig21 thanks to FBW, but for the rest.....
The thing is useless in bvr. It's present radar is just slightly better than mig 21's kopyo. And the sd 10 is nowhere as good as the r77. I'm ignoring the DCS propaganda since if the sd 10 was that effective it would have been the jf 17 that would have given the air cover instead of the f-solah...
Unfortunately the best dogfighter was useless infront of a pathetic mig 21 armed with a r73. There is reason why U.S continues to make fat pigs like the f18 and f35 the era of dogfighting is in for a pause right now...
Jf 17 doesn't even have hmd's still lmao.
I don't agree.
In a real and high intensity war, I'm quite sure of the huge electronic counter mesures level able to reduce the radar and data link efficency, and the risk of friendly fire (because a lot of planes in a small area) will need a positiv visual identification (or via IRST) before fire.
So WVR air to air combat will become more and more possible.
In a small intensity skirmish, it's another thing.
That's why the pause in dogfighting. If we have two equally capable air forces with similar ECM capabilities we will find a dogfighting scenario.
The mig 21 vs f16 fight during the air skirmish was funnily a similar situation. Thanks to the el8222 and the r73 the scenario played out similar to a dogfight. But bvr will be the tip of the spear...
If Iraq war is any indicator the BVR formula has worked out much better...
We should not take Any BVR capable Fighter lightly or else we will also loose our fighters like their F 16
The F 16 which was shot down by our Mig 21 was at least 5000 feet Downwards than the Mig 21
And that is when WC Abhinandan got a Lock On Tone on his R 73
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Abhinandan pressed on his quest to lock on to the marauding PAF jets. He had search mode indication of at least two F-16s on his Kopyo radar at 30–35 km range on course 290 degree. Wanting to make sure that he did not have any targets closer than that, Abhinandan switched over to his close combat mode on the radar and swept the area ahead of him trying to get a radar assisted lock for the R-73.
While climbing passing 20,000 feet, he got a lock on tone in one of his R-73s. This indicated that the missile head had locked onto an infra-red source within its gimbal limits. On the basis of a positive lock by the missile, Abhinandan fired the R-73 and turned around on a northerly course, before finally settling on an eastern heading towards the LoC.
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8 pieces of clinching evidence that show how IAF's Abhinandan shot down a Pakistani F-16
Using Open Source Intelligence (OSINT) & other evidence, an IAF veteran reconstructs IAF-PAF battle day after Balakot & concludes PAF indeed lost an F-16.
www.google.com
this Vlraam inclusion looks great. it means that our wish of pl-15 will come true. it also means that the radar is an improved version with support for longer range missile. pl-15 is all i want. now even rafale pilots will think twice before crossing border. as far as i know, there are systems in place. rafale can't penetrate deep. you changed datalinks, we changed rules.
Have you ever heard of NEZ of a AAM
Secondly when we can make Aim 120 C 5 loose its way by using ELTA jammers why cannot PL 15 be jammed and evaded
JF 17 is good only for BAR -- CAP
You can waste your AAMs as you like
Now your friends on PDF also admit that you used EIGHT. Aim 120 C5 missiles on that day
Eight missiles wasted and you got One Mig 21
JF 17 is a short range plane
Once it runs out of fuel and turns back it will be killed by Mig 29 or Sukhoi 30.
No AMRAAM hit occured at max range in Irak, More in the 20-30km one, where visual identification was possible.
And don't forget the F18 and Tornado destroyed by coalition SAM, despite IFF....
The question is which plane wants to get into a WVR close combat and which
Side wants to Avoid it
Pakistanis themselves claim that Sukhoi is " invincible " in 25 to 30 KM range
So they fired their Aim 120 from BVR ranges hoping to get a lucky shot
And then ran away
With Jammers available on both sides
A " Merge " will happen
That is where WVR skills and missiles are Absolutely necessary
That is just how the U.S operated. But most kills were done by the amraam and it was the better training in using missiles which helped US Navy perform better. bvr and wvr missiles have made Traditional dogfighting dead..
Also Fratricide is just a part of war...
AWACS will not be available in every theatre and every sector of the war
Neither will the EW / ELINT planes will be available on a 24 / 7 basis
What Pakistan did on Feb 27 is known as a " Set Piece Battle " where you can choose Time , Location and strength
In a large scale conflict , fighter Planes will have to rely on their strength
Therefore things like Climb Rate , ITR
STR , Low speed handling and your on board Jammers and Missiles will decide your victory
The sooner you can climb above the enemy and point your " Nose " At the enemy , the sooner you can shoot him down
Neither will the EW / ELINT planes will be available on a 24 / 7 basis
What Pakistan did on Feb 27 is known as a " Set Piece Battle " where you can choose Time , Location and strength
In a large scale conflict , fighter Planes will have to rely on their strength
Therefore things like Climb Rate , ITR
STR , Low speed handling and your on board Jammers and Missiles will decide your victory
The sooner you can climb above the enemy and point your " Nose " At the enemy , the sooner you can shoot him down
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you know Stephan, all this is just your imagination. your tactics, your radars, everything failed on feb 27. you guys only talk. it's like living in an imaginary world where your country forces will destroy everything. be realistic. this vlraam has more than 160km range. what will happen to iaf tankers? think about it. we penetrated poonch. f-16 left it's mark. ask your seniors. your mighty defence system failed. do you really believe that we can't detect rafale? don't live in imagination. big rcs with elta jammers? are you kidding me? nez doesn't matter. pl-21 is coming soon, ramjet technology. i believe you are talking about meteor nez. for meteor to work, you have to fire it first. hahaha.
Reason No 786 : Why inbreeding in Paxtan should attract capital punishment.
hello. rafale first batch arrived at least two months ago. where is your rafale? i can't see any near border. just like musharraf made fun of india like indians WILL do this,this will HAPPEN WE WILL DO THIS, THAT ETC. lol
Based on the advertised range of the JF-17's new radar and the PL-15, it cannot use the PL-15 to its fullest capabilities. It will be lucky if it can compete with today's MKI radar, which is also not good enough for the PL-15.
Second problem is you can be sure the Chinese have downgraded your version of the PL-15.
Third problem would be the extent of the deterioration of detection and engagement ranges because of EW. Meaning the quality of its ECCM equipment.
Fourth problem is the JF-17 will have to operate outside the SAM ring of the S-400, which is very far away from the Indian border. The alternative being operating below radar horizon which gives your adversary the advantage.
Fifth problem is the small number of jets with AESA, and the time it will take to induct all 50 ordered.
Sixth problem would be the maturity of the hardware and software being used.
Seventh problem would be Pakistan's ability to network all its assets with next generation technologies that can help it utilise JF-17's capabilities.
I have identified seven problems that PAF has to deal with before engaging with the IAF. And I don't think the JF-17 is going to the answer to deal with all these problems. But all these are secondary problems, all the main problems PAF will face will show up when the IAF actually makes an entrance. You can fight the IAF only after solving these 7 problems first.
The first problem with your post is - you used logic. The member you responded to is clearly is interested in teaching us, not learning.