Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

Reality is that America transferred many Technologies to china before tiananmen massacre.
Not just US but France, Germany, Italy and other EU states. Just search about Chinese acquisition of Automation companies(KUKA) and precision manufacturing and heavy equipment companies (TBMs),Germany in last decades .
CCP over the time has acquired (either legally or through shell companies) a lot of US Automobile, Aerospace and Electronics companies in last decades on which foundation of Modern Chinese conglomerates are standing.
Replication of similar thing is impossible for Indian Govt to replicate.
 
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Do you know the Coordinating Committee for Multilateral Export Controls?
Since 1950, the arms embargo on 30 socialist countries has made China almost inaccessible to Western technology. Since 1960, China's relations with the Soviet Union have deteriorated, and China has not been able to access Soviet technology. China can only rely on itself , India can get any technology he wants from countries in the world,
When China was just founded, it was poor and white, and the East and the West blocked China at the same time. We could only rely on ourselves. Technology can be bought, copied, and stolen, but there is one thing you can't buy, and that is dignity.
The dignity of an ancient nation that has endured 100 years of suffering to stand up again,
When China developed nuclear submarines, the only reference material was a blurred photo of the USS Nautilus submarine in an American magazine.
In 1988, China spent half of the Air Force's research and development funds to ask the United States to improve the J8II. As a result, in 1989, the United States abolished all cooperative projects, and the Chinese were kicked out of the American Grumman Company that night.,Until now, that J8 has been displayed in the museum as a trophy by the United States
In 1995, China developed the J10 and asked Dassault to sell the landing gear technology. France offered $500 million. China felt that the price was too high and asked for a price reduction. The French representative said on the spot, you can refuse the deal, but wait until you find us again. , the price would be four times what it is today
Now, people laugh at China for only copying and envy that China can manufacture J20, but the efforts and tears experienced by the growth of China's aviation industry, only the Chinese themselves know,
The opinions of others are not important. A world-leading Chinese Air Force and a well-developed Chinese national aviation industry are the most important things.

Mate, it looks like you managed to get all this out of a CCP propaganda book.

After the Sino-Soviet split, China received a lot of technology from the West.

The US intended to use China for containing the SU. It's also why China opened up its economy in 1974. Between 1970 and 1989, the amount of technology received by China was incredible with the highest happening after 1978. Engine tech, both turbofan and diesel, avionics, electronics, AIP etc, a lot of it from Israel and Europe. The J-10's FBW was practically handed to China by an American company. The Israelis handed over their EL/M-2035 technology for the J-10 too. Clandestine tech transfers from Israel continued even through the 2000s, until the Americans put a stop to it. Remember the old Phalcon deal with China? Or the ToT of the Python III + DASH HMS combo?

In 1989, the Americans ended cooperation with China due to the Tiananmen Square massacre and a military embargo was imposed.

Post the dissolution of the SU, China received a lot of tech from Russia.

Your turbofan was developed using American engine tech. Most of your ground-based engines are derivaties of French, German and Ukrainian engines.

Granted, China has done well, but it was on the bedrock of deep ToTs from the West throughout the 80s.

Otoh, India was denied technology from the West, largely due to the lessons learned from the ridiculous amounts of ToT given to China for no return. But India is getting committment in receiving technology now, because the West need India to contain China. Hence offers of full engine tech transfers, cooperation in development of electronics etc, stuff that China received back in the 80s.
 
Really? do you have a pic with missile on ?
Obviously this type of pictures we will get much later. At the moment there are only rendered images.
For pods a useful hard point was consumed previously. Now same as F 16, the block 3 has chin mounted hard point fir that purpose.
 
Obviously this type of pictures we will get much later. At the moment there are only rendered images.
For pods a useful hard point was consumed previously. Now same as F 16, the block 3 has chin mounted hard point fir that purpose.
It’ll be a disaster placing anything that produces smoke on that pylon.
 
Obviously this type of pictures we will get much later. At the moment there are only rendered images.
For pods a useful hard point was consumed previously. Now same as F 16, the block 3 has chin mounted hard point fir that purpose.
Unlikely, I would wait for confirmation.
 
Not entirely true. All thru the 1950's PRC was the beneficiary of huge largesse in technological & financial terms courtesy the USSR up until the early to mid 60's thanks to the ideological & personality clashes between Khrushchev & Mao.

Where do you think the designs for the atomic bombs or the hydrogen bombs or the N reactors or the N submarines or even the J-7 & it's various variants ( MiG - 15 / MiG - 17 / MiG - 19 / MiG - 21 ) came from ?

Cut to the early 80's & right up to the Tiananmen Square incident the US & Europe had deep defence ties with PRC. The commercial & economic ties including the sharing of technology in the commercial arena continues. That's what explains the huge domestic industry in PRC doesn't it be in cellular phones or consumer electronics or various other commodities . In the event dual use technology wasn't sanctioned till the late 90's & beyond.

Right up until the coming of power of Trump , the US & EU continued to host a vast community of Chinese students there for further studies. A number of studies in the recent past have highlighted the deep penetration of western academia by the Chinese state courtesy their huge student community.

It's an open secret that J-10 was based totally on the Israeli Lavi which PRC paid top dollar to Israel to acquire. In fact it took the threat of sanctions by the US against Israel in the late 90's & early 2000's before Israel suspended it's sale of PHALCON AEW systems to PRC.

Every advanced society in the world has depended on external stimuli or ingression to a certain degree to impart a momentum to their own development. How much does the US Atomic Bomb project owes itself to the Jewish scientific community which fled Europe & more specifically Germany to escape the Holocaust ? Ditto for NASA & the missile projects of the US & USSR post WW-2.

How much does the USSR aeronautical ecosystem owe itself to US & UK contributions during WW-2 & later the seminal decision by PM Clement Atlee to permit the sharing of the Jet engine technology by RR with USSR ? Arguably the USSR would be bereft of the Jet engine for a number of years but for that fateful decision.



Let's not over emphasize the huge advances PRC has made in various fields or even defence technology thru indigenous efforts which without a doubt though commendable is also natural for a nation of it's size & ambitions . Hence let's also cease making a virtue out of a necessity. China did what it had to i.e - China has innovated technology as much as it has copied & plagiarized.


The real trick is in mastering knowledge which was & still is a closely guarded secret like advanced jet engines , semi conductors , etc .

Finally , much is made of the 100 yrs of slavery. The CCP certainly never used such terminologies in PRC during the first 4 decades of it's rule relying on nationalism only since the 90's. How much of it is deflection from domestic tyranny by highlighting foreign tyranny & vast excesses of the CCP rule resulting in millions killed in the Great Purges following the Chinese Civil War , the 5 pests campaign , the Great Leap Forward , the Cultural Revolution etc is something for the Chinese people to ponder & reflect on .
What was different with China va a vis India and rest of the world is that China is a country owned by a organisation/party and it runs like a business without any well established social and international norms. It does what’s most profitable to that Organisation and has full authority, power and ruthlessness to do what it thinks best for it, just like those US corporates (apple, google,Microsoft etc).

For them profit justifies anything as long as they can get away with it. Same is true for China. And there are inherent advantages to this corporate model of governance, if you are part of that corporation.
While Counties like India have willingly adopted some well known western norms of social governance including the Democratic and Electoral systems (which CCP and Chinese trolls demonise most of the times and also claim to follow it better than others.)
These put high label of checks and scrutiny on the Ruling system that it’s almost is constant state of paralysis most of the times and functions at very slow pace.
You have to make consensus among the masses even for smaller things and there is always a risk of some people willingly opposing it thus jeopardising the whole program.
So good or bad we have chosen a different path for ourselves. And there are pros and cons to both of them.

Chineas Govt and CCP acts like a true Corporate entity unlike any other governments.
Reality is that America transferred many Technologies to china before tiananmen massacre.
Many people reply to me, I will focus on replying

1. The democratic system leads to the unification of the Indian defense industry.

I think this is wrong. Many countries in the world adopt the American democratic election system and the British cabinet system, such as Israelis and South Korea. These countries have established developed military industries. The largest customer of Israeli arms dealers is India, while South Korea has only begun to develop its military industry in the 1970s. Nowadays, K2 tanks, K9 cannons, and Zongwang explosive ships are world environmental weapons. Taiwan’s F-CK-1 fighter jets, the Wind III supersonic anti-connected ship, and the TK-3 anti-aircraft missiles are also much better than related Indian products.

Therefore, the political system is not at all a major factor affecting the development of military industry.



2. Foreign countries’ technical assistance to China,

(1) First of all, after the Korean War, persisted in starting to aid China's 156 industrial projects. Locally, large-scale industrial assistance to India has also begun. The inherent essence is to turn China into a concrete aspect of insisting on the economy. From 1960 to 1980, China had actually absorbed the technology of 1960. For example, the Sino-Vietnamese War in 1979. During the period, the most equipped tank in China was the T34, and it was not until 1972 that China realized all the independent production of the T54.

During this period, India received firm and substantial assistance from Europe. Victory main battle tank and HF24 periods are the products of this period.

(2) In 1999, China gained access to technology from the West. At the same time, with the industrialization of a large number of agriculture, the working class, and the decline in fiscal revenue, Chinese society is facing a serious economic and crisis. . . India began to introduce Mirage in 1982, China bought Mirage 2000 in 1986, and France gave China the price. It is several times that of India, at 25 million U.S. dollars. India can import German MTU engines for Afghan tanks.
1641785812995.png

This picture can explain all the problems of J10

(3)Disintegration of the Soviet Union
Some technologies of the Soviet Union have finally been obtained, the most typical, su27,
India has so far mocked China for plagiarizing SU27, but India has never thought that, su27, that is the last crystallization of the Soviet aviation industry, the improvement that su27 has brought to the Chinese aviation industry is unimaginable, and the improvement it brings to the Chinese Air Force is also huge. of,
However, the related improvement work of su27 is really difficult. First, the N001VE radar lags behind (which led to the famous Gripen fighter 4:0 defeating the su27), but the improvement is very difficult. The su27 is a statically unstable aircraft, and it has any structure. All changes need to adjust the flight control, so China needs to carry out wind tunnel tests on the su27 and reverse research and development of the aircraft, replace the welding structure of the su27 with a large-scale titanium alloy structure, use a large number of composite materials to reduce weight, and replace 850KGd N001VE radar with a 250KG 1493 radar.
Switch to WS10 engine, the final empty weight of J11B is only 16900KG,
The empty weight of su30MKI is as high as 19100KG, and AL31 is used...Any TVC, canard wings,Not enough to offset this huge gap

As for the technology that China has acquired from the West through purchases and the introduction of civilian technology, in the words of China Aviation Industry Chairman Lin Zuoming, "Scattered and trivial, it can only improve the industrial structure without revolutionary improvement."

As for Chinese students studying abroad, this is a joke. Chinese students have no access to military projects. On the contrary, Indian students are much more convenient.Moreover, Chinese military companies have their own training system, and people with a background of studying abroad are often considered unreliable.
 
Many people reply to me, I will focus on replying

1. The democratic system leads to the unification of the Indian defense industry.

I think this is wrong. Many countries in the world adopt the American democratic election system and the British cabinet system, such as Israelis and South Korea. These countries have established developed military industries. The largest customer of Israeli arms dealers is India, while South Korea has only begun to develop its military industry in the 1970s. Nowadays, K2 tanks, K9 cannons, and Zongwang explosive ships are world environmental weapons. Taiwan’s F-CK-1 fighter jets, the Wind III supersonic anti-connected ship, and the TK-3 anti-aircraft missiles are also much better than related Indian products.

Therefore, the political system is not at all a major factor affecting the development of military industry.

A democratic system gives people greater financial freedom, so people have the opportunity to create higher economic value with their own abilities. Otoh, look at what China is doing to its own private companies.

With a $2000 per capita income, India is still a poor country so you do not see much effect in the global economy today, but you will eventually see the effect in the future.

Korea receives a lot of ToT from the West, India doesn't.

As for the technology that China has acquired from the West through purchases and the introduction of civilian technology, in the words of China Aviation Industry Chairman Lin Zuoming, "Scattered and trivial, it can only improve the industrial structure without revolutionary improvement."

China has still received a lot more than India has.

As for Chinese students studying abroad, this is a joke. Chinese students have no access to military projects. On the contrary, Indian students are much more convenient.Moreover, Chinese military companies have their own training system, and people with a background of studying abroad are often considered unreliable.

Neither Chinese nor Indian students have access. You need to be a green card holder.
 
A democratic system gives people greater financial freedom, so people have the opportunity to create higher economic value with their own abilities. Otoh, look at what China is doing to its own private companies.

With a $2000 per capita income, India is still a poor country so you do not see much effect in the global economy today, but you will eventually see the effect in the future.

Korea receives a lot of ToT from the West, India doesn't.



China has still received a lot more than India has.



Neither Chinese nor Indian students have access. You need to be a green card holder.

No I think China's approach was different. In 90s and 2000s they put 1000s of engineers to to reverse engineer russian projects. I believe the Su 27 clone alone had 3500 engineers working on it. This, along with hard cash buy out russian tech with some amount of hiring russian engineers helped build a russia like base.

That's also why Chinese tech is more similar to Russian than western tech which they tried to access mostly through espionage.
 
No I think China's approach was different. In 90s and 2000s they put 1000s of engineers to to reverse engineer russian projects. I believe the Su 27 clone alone had 3500 engineers working on it. This, along with hard cash buy out russian tech with some amount of hiring russian engineers helped build a russia like base.

That's also why Chinese tech is more similar to Russian than western tech which they tried to access mostly through espionage.

It's a mix of both. The West did a good job of hiding their own assistance they have given to the Chinese, while both the West and China have publicly given more focus towards Russian tech. This way, some western countries have continued dealing with China even after 1989, particularly dual use tech.
 
where did you get this information from ? what makes you think only green card holders can access sensitive info and not any one else?

What we are talking about and what's been mentioned in the article are two completely different issues. It talks about how PLA recruits are being sent into American universities to access "civilian" technologies. But these guys have zero access to military, space and nuclear tech. You gotta have a green card at the minimum to work in these sectors.
 
What we are talking about and what's been mentioned in the article are two completely different issues. It talks about how PLA recruits are being sent into American universities to access "civilian" technologies. But these guys have zero access to military, space and nuclear tech. You gotta have a green card at the minimum to work in these sectors.
Theoretically to work in sensitive jobs ppl certainly need to have security clearance & be a citizen/resident a.k.a GC but thats not the only way to access to technologies. Most of the tech in US which are barred for export are freely accessible inside the country. Second thing is that academia has no such restrictions its only fully paid jobs. Most of the students are interns and they work for these ppl who work on sensitive projects.
 
Theoretically to work in sensitive jobs ppl certainly need to have security clearance & be a citizen/resident a.k.a GC but thats not the only way to access to technologies. Most of the tech in US which are barred for export are freely accessible inside the country. Second thing is that academia has no such restrictions its only fully paid jobs. Most of the students are interns and they work for these ppl who work on sensitive projects.

You are painting a very specific issue with a very broad brush.

Having access to professors working on sensitive tech doesn't mean a foreign student gets access to sensitive tech. Sensitive can also mean many things. They may have access to civilian and dual-use tech, they are paying money to learn these things. But when you go into specifics, like what PLA would actually find important, their cadets won't have access to that. What's relevant to NASA, Pentagon, JPL, DoE etc isn't allowed for foreign students. And, no, professors don't go around giving away national secrets to a bunch of kids.

All incidents of students spying on US tech in universities has been about civilian tech, particularly in the electronics and biotechnology fields. The real danger is students and other agents influencing or recruiting American professors to spy for them. Like it happened with one professor who transferred missile tech to China. As for the students themselves, without a GC, they have zero access to what matters. So you should stop conflating two separate issues.
 
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Having access to professors working on sensitive tech doesn't mean a foreign student gets access to sensitive tech. Sensitive can also mean many things. They may have access to civilian and dual-use tech, they are paying money to learn these things. But when you go into specifics, like what PLA would actually find important, their cadets won't have access to that. What's relevant to NASA, Pentagon, JPL, DoE etc isn't allowed for foreign students. And, no, professors don't go around giving away national secrets to a bunch of kids.
lol, as usual you have no practical idea how things work, you simply end up googling every thing.

There is no such thing as sensitive once it comes to academia , things come to academia only bcos they want to utilize the broader knowledge base to solve the problem instead of being siloed as it happens in the companies. In companies they do ensure departmental access is limited but that cannot be imposed in academia.

Second thing is that you dont need to know everything , you only need to know which direction research to know what is happening and build on that. If you are some one who is looking for word to word instructions then you are even unfit to compete with US.
All incidents of students spying on US tech in universities has been about civilian tech, particularly in the electronics and biotechnology fields. The real danger is students and other agents influencing or recruiting American professors to spy for them. Like it happened with one professor who transferred missile tech to China. As for the students themselves, without a GC, they have zero access to what matters. So you should stop conflating two separate issues.
lol, as usual you showed your practical ignorance. One reason why US is ahead is bcos most advanced technologies are available for civilian use in fact there are very few companies which are only defence in nature. Unlike India they dont put classified on every thing and prevent it for civilian usage, if the company sees profit they will commercialize it.
 
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