Pakistan AirForce : Updates & Discussions

[Lolwa]

I am curious, why do you believe that China and Turkey have good diplomatic relations?

The Turks are only crying for Uyghurs because it gives them a geopolitical stick that can be used against the Chinese. Same thing is being done by them in Kashmir. The problem is that the Turks in their arrogance have also irked Uncle SAM, and most of Nato except Germany hates the Turks. It's just a matter of time the gravy train of Nato tech ends and their collapsing economy won't be able to run so many high tech programs. Atleast that is what I think. The Turks like the rest of muslim pariah states will end up looking towards the CCP to fund them thereby increasing Chinese influence in west Asia. That's what I believe will happen. The Turks will be made a limited partner and then dropped if Erdogan continues by the west. Which will force the Turks to shift toward the Chinese.
The entire reason they are cosyng up with the Pakistanis is entirely due to this. It's not one way. Both of them are desperate.

 

[xxxxx]

This guy Temel Kotil is renowned in Turkey as an institution builder on par with our Dr Bhabha , Dr Sarabhai , Satish Dhawan , etc.

The impressive strides TAI has made in the recent past have been under his leadership. You can bet NUST & Paxtani aerospace ecosystem will benefit a great deal from this association.

Interesting tidbit Temel Kotil was CEO of Turkish Airlines between 2005-16 when before his leadership , the organization which was in some trouble , soon rose to become a hugely profitable enterprise & was ranked among one of the best airlines in Europe. No mean achievement this .

Incidentally Ilker Ayci who's just been appointed by Tata Sons as the MD of Air India was part of Kotil's team & succeeded him as Chairman of Turkish Airlines.

Both of these individuals have deep ties with Erdogan , his AK Parti & have served as his advisors & part of his administration at different points of time in their & his career across the years.

The only role of this person is to solve the problem of taking off and landing drones, which is useless. Many people think that Turkish drones are very good when they see the Naka war. In fact, Armenia does not have any decent air defense weapons. Their S300V, Arrow 10, not suitable for defending drones at all
And the TB-2 drone itself sucks, endurance, usable payload, photodetector performance, it's the worst drone you can find.

 

[Lolwa]

Assuming the jet costs $120M and the PAF buys 8 jets every year for 10 years, it's $960M a yea

That's almost 1 billion. You think with the current state of their economy they will be able to manage it. On top of that increasing inbreeding and institutional failure in their country which now is visible.
Although I could see the qataris funding the Turks and Pakistanis provided the Pakistanis offer their services to the qataris. They need to get some pilots to fly those spanking new f-15QA and eurocanards somehow.

 

[xxxxx]

Which will force the Turks to shift toward the Chinese.

Even if Turkey turns to China, China refuses
Iran, , these are a hundred times better than Turkey

 

[Lolwa]

The only role of this person is to solve the problem of taking off and landing drones, which is useless. Many people think that Turkish drones are very good when they see the Naka war. In fact, Armenia does not have any decent air defense weapons. Their S300V, Arrow 10, not suitable for defending drones at all
And the TB-2 drone itself sucks, endurance, usable payload, photodetector performance, it's the worst drone you can find.

Tb 2's are decent for the class they are in. They have solved the payload issue by using micromunitions instead of full fledged atgm's. Also the success of Azerbaijani's was due to the Israeli harops and not the tb-2 which was primarily taking out infantry and pantsirs.
Tb-2's are only behind the mq-1 predator for its class. There use of western tech makes the tb 2 a pretty reliable drone.

 

[xxxxx]

increasing Chinese influence in west Asia

That's not our strategic direction, we just want to do some business,

 

[Lolwa]

That's not our strategic direction, we just want to do some business,

That's what Chinese influence is.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The only role of this person is to solve the problem of taking off and landing drones, which is useless. Many people think that Turkish drones are very good when they see the Naka war. In fact, Armenia does not have any decent air defense weapons. Their S300V, Arrow 10, not suitable for defending drones at all.

Apart from drones there are the hptr projects which seem to be progressing rather well. Besides they aim to build an Apache , turboshaft & all besides getting it certified before the end of this decade. That's fairly ambitious.

Then there's the multiple programs on Fighter Aircrafts. A good deal of their success will depend on how much of technology transfer they can manage from their European partners apart from easy accessibility to their product range in terms of components & sub systems.

 

[xxxxx]

Tb 2's are decent for the class they are in. They have solved the payload issue by using micromunitions instead of full fledged atgm's. Also the success of Azerbaijani's was due to the Israeli harops and not the tb-2 which was primarily taking out infantry and pantsirs.
Tb-2's are only behind the mq-1 predator for its class. There use of western tech makes the tb 2 a pretty reliable drone.

The so-called Western technology is just some cheap electronics and power systems on the market. For China, Europe, and Russia, it is simply low-end technology.
The so-called miniature ammunition has a very low technical content. Today, when GPS/laser guidance technology has become popular, even ordinary college students can design them.
Also, the Azerbaijani drones only played the role of suppressing the northern front of Armenia. The key to the real victory is the armored and special forces

 

[_Anonymous_]

And the TB-2 drone itself sucks, endurance, usable payload, photodetector performance, it's the worst drone you can find.

I'd imagine these are value for money. As far as quality comparisons go , unless you're comparing them to US built drones , they will deliver whatever modest expectations one has of them .

Besides the Turks could well turn around & ask you - what's the Chinese record in drones been ? Your Wing Loong series doing service in Pakistan isn't worth writing about much . While the Pakistanis haven't gone public with their grievances , one only has to frequent their defence forums to see their performance & what the Pakistanis actually think of them . Jordan has actually put up on sale a whole lot of drones they've imported from China in the recent past . Why do you suppose the Jordanians did it ?

Let's look at the fighter aircraft portfolio too . You used to export a lot of MiG 19 & MiG 21 rip offs & it's derivatives not a long time ago .
Right now it's restricted to trainer aircrafts & JF-17 both "co developed" with Pakistan .

For all the highlights of the J-10 or J-16 , how many have you exported ? Let's start with now Many international air shows they've participated in save your own ?

 

[xxxxx]

Apart from drones there are the hptr projects which seem to be progressing rather well. Besides they aim to build an Apache , turboshaft & all besides getting it certified before the end of this decade. That's fairly ambitious.

Then there's the multiple programs on Fighter Aircrafts. A good deal of their success will depend on how much of technology transfer they can manage from their European partners apart from easy accessibility to their product range in terms of components & sub systems.

Their so-called R&D is just to go to Europe, North America, find parts, and then assemble them by themselves. Turkey's economy is collapsing, and all planning can only be an illusion

 

[Lolwa]

The so-called Western technology is just some cheap electronics and power systems on the market. For China, Europe, and Russia, it is simply low-end technology.
The so-called miniature ammunition has a very low technical content. Today, when GPS/laser guidance technology has become popular, even ordinary college students can design them.
Also, the Azerbaijani drones only played the role of suppressing the northern front of Armenia. The key to the real victory is the armored and special forces

It includes Sat-comm, targetting system and so. It's low tech but there's a quality in making low tech. The micromunitions are extremely accurate and have been successfully used. The turkish subcomponents are all just localised European and canadian subcomponents. So they will obviously have better quality.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Their so-called R&D is just to go to Europe, North America, find parts, and then assemble them by themselves. Turkey's economy is collapsing, and all planning can only be an illusion

If China could develop an aerospace industrial ecosystem when it was completely isolated from the rest of the world with access only to Soviet technology with no economy worth the name to speak of in the 1960s & 70s why do you think the Turks would be so ineffective & incompetent ?

 

[xxxxx]

I'd imagine these are value for money. As far as quality comparisons go , unless you're comparing them to US built drones , they will deliver whatever modest expectations one has of them .

Besides the Turks could well turn around & ask you - what's the Chinese record in drones been ? Your Wing Loong series doing service in Pakistan isn't worth writing about much . While the Pakistanis haven't gone public with their grievances , one only has to frequent their defence forums to see their performance & what the Pakistanis actually think of them . Jordan has actually put up on sale a whole lot of drones they've imported from China in the recent past . Why do you suppose the Jordanians did it ?

Let's look at the fighter aircraft portfolio too . You used to export a lot of MiG 19 & MiG 21 rip offs & it's derivatives not a long time ago .
Right now it's restricted to trainer aircrafts & JF-17 both "co developed" with Pakistan .

For all the highlights of the J-10 or J-16 , how many have you exported ? Let's start with now Many international air shows they've participated in save your own ?

Haha, Saudi Arabia, UAE have introduced the production line of Wing Loong 2, in Libya, Wing Loong 2 tracked TB2 to a military base, and then blew it up
If the Wing Loong 2 is really as bad as you say it is, will these oil tycoons use them? Pakistan's own drones are all imitations of China's Rainbow. If they are so bad, they can buy TB2.

 

[xxxxx]

If China could develop an aerospace industrial ecosystem when it was completely isolated from the rest of the world with access only to Soviet technology with no economy worth the name to speak of in the 1960s & 70s why do you think the Turks would be so ineffective & incompetent ?

We have a complete industrial system, does Turkey have it?
We have a highly centralized National Defense Science, Technology and Industry Commission, does Turkey have it?
We have more than 30 aerospace universities and research institutes, do you have them in Turkey?

 

[_Anonymous_]

Haha, Saudi Arabia, UAE have introduced the production line of Wing Loong 2, in Libya, Wing Loong 2 tracked TB2 to a military base, and then blew it up .If the Wing Loong 2 is really as bad as you say it is, will these oil tycoons use them?

I imagine they bought it to tackle Low Intensity Conflicts ( LIC ) . No clue if your WL-2 tracked their TB-2 & destroyed it or not .

You still haven't answered why the Jordanians did what they did .

Pakistan's own drones are all imitations of China's Rainbow. If they are so bad, they can buy TB2.

Does Pakistan have a choice in the matter ?

 

[_Anonymous_]

We have a complete industrial system, does Turkey have it?
We have a highly centralized National Defense Science, Technology and Industry Commission, does Turkey have it?
We have more than 30 aerospace universities and research institutes, do you have them in Turkey?

You're referring to the here & now . I'm referring to the 1960s & 70s .

See Turkey as being pioneers in this field as far as their interests in self reliance goes. They also have a program to develop their own turbofan engines. A tad ambitious but their ambitions are in the right direction .

 

[xxxxx]

It includes Sat-comm, targetting system and so. It's low tech but there's a quality in making low tech. The micromunitions are extremely accurate and have been successfully used. The turkish subcomponents are all just localised European and canadian subcomponents. So they will obviously have better quality.

who told you there are better quality ones in Europe?
Last year, there was a picture of the artillery shells that the UAE assisted in Libya. The laser-guided shells above were all made in China.
China did not rely on AK47 to get the status of the fourth largest arms dealer, we have high-end products and customers

 

[Lolwa]

who told you there are better quality ones in Europe?
Last year, there was a picture of the artillery shells that the UAE assisted in Libya. The laser-guided shells above were all made in China.
China did not rely on AK47 to get the status of the fourth largest arms dealer, we have high-end products and customers

Laser guided shells is not some new tech and I don't think Chinese tech is that bad. Just that there have been reports of the wing loong failing in Jordan and another country. The tb-2 is basically a western design it's basically the mq 1 predator in a smaller package. It uses the austrian engine and has entirely western subcomponents apart from the airframe which is turkish. They are replacing with turkish built subcomponents slowly. But Europeans still have quality advantage even over the Americans in some cases. Things like the meteor, camm-er, iris-t are just some of the examples.

 

[xxxxx]

I imagine they bought it to tackle Low Intensity Conflicts ( LIC ) . No clue if your WL-2 tracked their TB-2 & destroyed it or not .

You still haven't answered why the Jordanians did what they did .

You mean the Jordanian Air Force grounded the Wing Loong 2?
If you look up Jordan's financial situation, and the King of Jordan is an F16 pilot, it is impossible to ground the F16. With the demise of ISIS, the grounding of drones is inevitable.