Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

Who will win the P75I program?

  • L&T and Navantia

    Votes: 14 37.8%
  • MDL and TKMS

    Votes: 9 24.3%
  • It will get canceled eventually

    Votes: 14 37.8%

  • Total voters
    37
A-26 (Blekinge class) is a superior choice. Significantly quieter AIP versus previous designs, innate special forces support capabilities with built in special forces support facilities, sleek design built on the GHOST philosophy (Genuine HOlistic STealth) and increased use of automation (there is no command center on these subs, the mast is entirely automated) and a optional 18-cell VLS.

Swe_A26_poster.jpg


3 different sizes are offered for export. A-26 Pelagic from littoral operations. At 1000 tons, with a 4000nm range and endurance of 20 days it's Swedens choice for operations in shallow Baltic waters. The A-26 Oceanic up endurance to 30 days at patrol speed and 6500nm at 10kt. Displacement is 2000 tons.

India might be interested more in the A-26 Oceanic (Extended Range) with a displacement over 3000 tons, a range of 10,000nm at 10kt and an endurance of +50 days.

Sweden's submarines are fairly unique in that they use wire-guided 400mm torpedoes. (alongside Saab's Torped-62 heavyweight torpedo). Wire-guidance allows for smaller lightweight torpedoes to be tandem fired, and is far more reliable then traditional fire-and-forget lightweight torpedoes when operating in shallow and crowed Baltic waters. Sweden holds the record for the most torpedoes launched and guided simultaneously owing to these unique torpedoes.

Swe_A26_LWT.jpg


Their ability to support remote operated vehicles is very strong, being a design that was from the ground up designed to support both special missions capabilities provided by ROVs, AUVs and special forces. The AUV-6-MR is the standard autonomous vehicle launched from the torpedo tubes of a Swedish submarine.

Porpoise1000_payloads.jpg


Because these submarines were offered to Norway, alongside the German Type 212CD and French Scorpene' I've had a chance to review not only their design, but work directly with our Swedish counterparts on some of the more intimate details of their designs and I can say with utmost confidence that the A-26 is one of the best designs out there today. Ultimately politics will decide, it always does in tenders like these, but I'd favor the A-26 over all other contenders knowing what I do about the design.

Swedens a good partner to work with too. Accommodating, though sometimes they have troubles keeping up with deadlines or schedules (Archer tender I'm looking at you), but owing to their own budget limitations they produce cost-effective designs and are willing to work with a partner to refine or redefine a program to fit both nation's needs.

What about Japan?? can anyone elaborate on it, are they in the race, if not why?

Japan themselves are replacing the Soryu in the coming years, so they'd be offering you an older design. Naturally it's be modified for India, but they are developing better.

Jp_Future_SS.jpg


The new design is based on the Soryu, but with significant alterations to hydroplane placement and sail form, being similar to the steamlined Akulas of the Russian Navy. The pumpjet shown in the design and their sleek build hints they're build for speed to outrun the PLAN. The pumpjet, being optimized for faster travel indicates a change in propulsion system for the new submarines too, something better for ocean going travel then their current AIP design. Like the Soryu before these are large ocean going boats.

Jp_Future_SS_pdf.jpg


Soryu's great, but Japan's developing better.
 
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A-26 (Blekinge class) is a superior choice. Significantly quieter AIP versus previous designs, innate special forces support capabilities with built in special forces support facilities, sleek design built on the GHOST philosophy (Genuine HOlistic STealth) and increased use of automation (there is no command center on these subs, the mast is entirely automated) and a optional 18-cell VLS.

View attachment 7810

3 different sizes are offered for export. A-26 Pelagic from littoral operations. At 1000 tons, with a 4000nm range and endurance of 20 days it's Swedens choice for operations in shallow Baltic waters. The A-26 Oceanic up endurance to 30 days at patrol speed and 6500nm at 10kt. Displacement is 2000 tons.

India might be interested more in the A-26 Oceanic (Extended Range) with a displacement over 3000 tons, a range of 10,000nm at 10kt and an endurance of +50 days.

Sweden's submarines are fairly unique in that they use wire-guided 400mm torpedoes. (alongside Saab's Torped-62 heavyweight torpedo). Wire-guidance allows for smaller lightweight torpedoes to be tandem fired, and is far more reliable then traditional fire-and-forget lightweight torpedoes when operating in shallow and crowed Baltic waters. Sweden holds the record for the most torpedoes launched and guided simultaneously owing to these unique torpedoes.

View attachment 7811

Their ability to support remote operated vehicles is very strong, being a design that was from the ground up designed to support both special missions capabilities provided by ROVs, AUVs and special forces. The AUV-6-MR is the standard autonomous vehicle launched from the torpedo tubes of a Swedish submarine.

View attachment 7812

Because these submarines were offered to Norway, alongside the German Type 212CD and French Scorpene' I've had a chance to review not only their design, but work directly with our Swedish counterparts on some of the more intimate details of their designs and I can say with utmost confidence that the A-26 is one of the best designs out there today. Ultimately politics will decide, it always does in tenders like these, but I'd favor the A-26 over all other contenders knowing what I do about the design.

Swedens a good partner to work with too. Accommodating, though sometimes they have troubles keeping up with deadlines or schedules (Archer tender I'm looking at you), but owing to their own budget limitations they produce cost-effective designs and are willing to work with a partner to refine or redefine a program to fit both nation's needs.



Japan themselves are replacing the Soryu in the coming years, so they'd be offering you an older design. Naturally it's be modified for India, but they are developing better.

View attachment 7813

The new design is based on the Soryu, but with significant alterations to hydroplane placement and sail form, being similar to the steamlined Akulas of the Russian Navy. The pumpjet shown in the design and their sleek build hints they're build for speed to outrun the PLAN. The pumpjet, being optimized for faster travel indicates a change in propulsion system for the new submarines too, something better for ocean going travel then their current AIP design. Like the Soryu before these are large ocean going boats.

View attachment 7814

Soryu's great, but Japan's developing better.
what about 630mm torpedoes?
 
what about 630mm torpedoes?

Only Russia uses 650mm torpedo tubes, generally for the Type 65 torpedo:

d104af06a8265208540e8fb0be4d49b0.jpg


But also for firing the submarine launched RPK-7 variant of the RPK-6 anti-submarine "torpedo-missile".


These missiles are going away in favor of the RU-100, fired from traditional 533mm torpedo tubes and the 91RE1 variant (submarine launched - shown below) and 91RTE2 (vertical launched) of the Kalibr cruise missile family.

9e38d4b073619f86a0fdffab9e14a4c7.jpg


Can't imagine the 650mm tubes of the Oscar II, Typhoon, Akula and similar Soviet era submarines will last much longer.

Ru_Pr885_TT.jpg


So no, Sweden wont be adding any to their designs, nor will Japan because outside of Russia and its Type 65 and RPK-7 no one else uses 650mm torpedoes rocket/missile assisted torpedoes.
 
A-26 (Blekinge class) is a superior choice. Significantly quieter AIP versus previous designs, innate special forces support capabilities with built in special forces support facilities, sleek design built on the GHOST philosophy (Genuine HOlistic STealth) and increased use of automation (there is no command center on these subs, the mast is entirely automated) and a optional 18-cell VLS.

View attachment 7810

3 different sizes are offered for export. A-26 Pelagic from littoral operations. At 1000 tons, with a 4000nm range and endurance of 20 days it's Swedens choice for operations in shallow Baltic waters. The A-26 Oceanic up endurance to 30 days at patrol speed and 6500nm at 10kt. Displacement is 2000 tons.

India might be interested more in the A-26 Oceanic (Extended Range) with a displacement over 3000 tons, a range of 10,000nm at 10kt and an endurance of +50 days.

Sweden's submarines are fairly unique in that they use wire-guided 400mm torpedoes. (alongside Saab's Torped-62 heavyweight torpedo). Wire-guidance allows for smaller lightweight torpedoes to be tandem fired, and is far more reliable then traditional fire-and-forget lightweight torpedoes when operating in shallow and crowed Baltic waters. Sweden holds the record for the most torpedoes launched and guided simultaneously owing to these unique torpedoes.

View attachment 7811

Their ability to support remote operated vehicles is very strong, being a design that was from the ground up designed to support both special missions capabilities provided by ROVs, AUVs and special forces. The AUV-6-MR is the standard autonomous vehicle launched from the torpedo tubes of a Swedish submarine.

View attachment 7812

Because these submarines were offered to Norway, alongside the German Type 212CD and French Scorpene' I've had a chance to review not only their design, but work directly with our Swedish counterparts on some of the more intimate details of their designs and I can say with utmost confidence that the A-26 is one of the best designs out there today. Ultimately politics will decide, it always does in tenders like these, but I'd favor the A-26 over all other contenders knowing what I do about the design.

Swedens a good partner to work with too. Accommodating, though sometimes they have troubles keeping up with deadlines or schedules (Archer tender I'm looking at you), but owing to their own budget limitations they produce cost-effective designs and are willing to work with a partner to refine or redefine a program to fit both nation's needs.



Japan themselves are replacing the Soryu in the coming years, so they'd be offering you an older design. Naturally it's be modified for India, but they are developing better.

View attachment 7813

The new design is based on the Soryu, but with significant alterations to hydroplane placement and sail form, being similar to the steamlined Akulas of the Russian Navy. The pumpjet shown in the design and their sleek build hints they're build for speed to outrun the PLAN. The pumpjet, being optimized for faster travel indicates a change in propulsion system for the new submarines too, something better for ocean going travel then their current AIP design. Like the Soryu before these are large ocean going boats.

View attachment 7814

Soryu's great, but Japan's developing better.
18 VLS, which missiles are you considering when you say 18 VLS? NSM?

Brahmos is a bit heavier missile. A loadout of 12 Brahmos would be decent.

On the competition, politics won't be a big factor in Submarines, than its in like fighter jets etc.
AIP technology, LACM capability and cost will be the primary factors.

France Naval Group holds advantage in terms of cost, coz infrastructure and training costs will be significantly reduced if a Scorpene derivative is chosen.

But then it remains to be seen.
 
18 VLS, which missiles are you considering when you say 18 VLS? NSM?

Brahmos is a bit heavier missile. A loadout of 12 Brahmos would be decent.

A smaller Brahmos maybe, but the missile (and derivatives like P-800) are a fair bit longer then the missiles envisioned on A-26, which wasn't expected to have any Russian origin/cooperatively designed equipment on them.

58d7ab14ded470305cea24ed08868679.jpg


P-800 for instance is 2.5 meters longer then Tomahawk and though the missiles launch casing is fairly thin, it's too long for A-26 to accommodate.

main-qimg-1a96d4a3f52861cda777d043fd5e4235


Tomahawk, Hyunmoo-3 and MdCN are the class that'd be used on an A-26. So Nirbhay could be an option once it matures enough for use on submarines. Some variants of Kalibr too, but they range from 6-8 meters.

1*FEFa_HzVb9GxS83vEsle2A.jpeg


2015mbst103_001_001.jpg



Norwegian missiles on Swedish submarines? Stranger things have happened I suppose.
 
Why? because newer? They can't used the deterrence and SSN french fleet experience, and didn't study and produce so many subs than german.
It's as for now a paper project.
Remember the spain S80 ..... a powerfull design on paperboard. And only on paperboard.

The smaller version of A-26 is under construction, so it's not exactly a paper design.

And the bigger versions of all the subs we are interested in are paper subs anyway.
 
A-26 (Blekinge class) is a superior choice. Significantly quieter AIP versus previous designs, innate special forces support capabilities with built in special forces support facilities, sleek design built on the GHOST philosophy (Genuine HOlistic STealth) and increased use of automation (there is no command center on these subs, the mast is entirely automated) and a optional 18-cell VLS.
AIP is by nature quiet.
Special forces support capa : not new. Shortfin barracuda has it.
automation : not new.
VLS cell : only for US products....
 
Depends on whether the French come in with Scorpene or SMX Ocean. My guess is Scorpene.

The IN wants the Scorpene, with enhancements from the Shortfin. The level of customisation and training required to get one line of subs is enough.

Second strike capability - Indigenous SSBN - Arihant and follow on.
Long endurance patrol - SSN - Akula with Indian SSN coming online from L&T and Vizag
SSK - Scorpene Advanced, Kalvari, Sindhugosh, Shishumar

I fail to understand, how we are going to manage one more line!

Instead of doing this nonsense of show, we might as well just get on with it. MDL is ready and one more shipyard can be brought online. Get the damn thing on.
 
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The IN wants the Scorpene, with enhancements from the Shortfin. The level of customisation and training required to get one line of subs is enough.

The idea is to get a second line in under the private sector, in the meanwhile place an order for 3 more Scorpenes from MDL. Our requirements are big enough to get a second class of subs.
 
India might be interested more in the A-26 Oceanic (Extended Range) with a displacement over 3000 tons, a range of 10,000nm at 10kt and an endurance of +50 days.
That means, in the case of an Indian choice, that it ias a new design (3000T <> 1400T), so risky.
Add that the swedish don't have a real habit to tech transfert.... => It will not be the indian winner.
 
The idea is to get a second line in under the private sector, in the meanwhile place an order for 3 more Scorpenes from MDL. Our requirements are big enough to get a second class of subs.

Why have we not placed the Follow on order for 3 more Scorpenes so far
 
Why? because newer? They can't used the deterrence and SSN french fleet experience, and didn't study and produce so many subs than german.
It's as for now a paper project.
Remember the spain S80 ..... a powerfull design on paperboard. And only on paperboard.
Isn't the same S80 - that they made major error in calculations in the engineering drawings - that same drawings was used in actual fabrication and now is over weight/unstable?
 
Isn't the same S80 - that they made major error in calculations in the engineering drawings - that same drawings was used in actual fabrication and now is over weight/unstable?
It is that S80.
Overweight, so they have to add a hull section....
S80 is not ready yet. And over budget. That mainly prove that a modern sub is a very highly complicated object. A very few country are mastering a sub design and production. Even the english had to ask for US assistance for their last SSN design... Russian Armur design is a fail....

And S80 used a US tactic system. Another pain in the *censored* about US dependance.
 
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