Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Actually, yes, if they get blueprint and production tools. HSL even tried to squeeze into P-75I with Adani's help. I'd actually say HSL is much more accomplished in building submarines than MDL is.



Submarines have more flexibility, but that's only when we make it with our own tech. When we are buying tech, we have to buy what's available, not what we wish to operate.



Not really. That's the very point of P-75I, that the Scorpene will not meet future requirements, hence a new tender. For example, the next submarine requires the ability to fire the hypersonic version of Brahmos, but at 9m long, that's too big to be fit inside the Scorpene, hence the need for an 8-9 diameter submarine. How on earth will the current Scorpene fire the Brahmos-1?

In your opinion , which is the Best Conventional Submarine Today
Available to India , Soryu is not for sale

 

[Hydra]

IMO, the best options for MDL and L&T are choosing either the French or the S Koreans.

Germany should be avoided at all costs, far too pacifist and stubborn. Russia is a problem when it comes to tech transfers.

The French offer is for a new class called the SMX 3.0, not Scorpene, whereas the Koreans have come up with their own indigenous design. The Korean Batch II design comes with 10 VLS and they plan to skipp out on AIP by choosing Li-ion batteries instead, and comes with fully electric propulsion. The biggest advantage is the fact that the Koreans have already started building the new class of subs and will have fixed all the problems by the time we get our first sub, whereas the French sub will be the first of its class, so the Korean sub will have a price and maturity advantage.

There is talk of splitting the order 4 to 2, with 2 going to L&T, or 4 to the winner and 2 to the loser, but it's unclear if that will actually happen.

Korwan sub is the least capable, and it is based on some.german design AFAIK

 

[randomradio]

In your opinion , which is the Best Conventional Submarine Today
Available to India , Soryu is not for sale

SMX Ocean, hands down. It's a true blue water SSK. But it weighs 5000T and beyond our needs, especially since we are planning to get SSNs.

Soryu is problematic in terms of tech transfer and cooperation in general. It wasn't for us since the very beginning. The Swedes backed out since they wanted control, which means they didn't want to transfer tech and wanted to avoid the SPM process.

Among the ones on offer, I'd rate the SMX 3.0 and KSS-III the highest. The German, Russian and Spanish subs of the weight class that we need don't exist. Only the KSS-III is in production and 1 will enter service next year. The French have a pretty robust sub production history, so their designs are a safe bet for submarines of such weight class, not to mention we have the domestic industry capability in dealing with French tech.

I'd prefer the IN is not a guinea pig for all these companies, so the existing KSS-III and the SMX 3.0 built upon the pre-existing French sub experience are the best bets, even if all the other designs are equally good on paper.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Actually, yes, if they get blueprint and production tools. HSL even tried to squeeze into P-75I with Adani's help. I'd actually say HSL is much more accomplished in building submarines than MDL is.



Submarines have more flexibility, but that's only when we make it with our own tech. When we are buying tech, we have to buy what's available, not what we wish to operate.



Not really. That's the very point of P-75I, that the Scorpene will not meet future requirements, hence a new tender. For example, the next submarine requires the ability to fire the hypersonic version of Brahmos, but at 9m long, that's too big to be fit inside the Scorpene, hence the need for an 8-9 diameter submarine. How on earth will the current Scorpene fire the Brahmos-1?

Naval Dockyard Mumbai has more experience with Submarines and their repair than HSL. MDL has actually built 4 SSKs in service and 4 more under various stages. HSL and SBC are different.

Navy wants a Land Attack Cruise Missile Launch capability and AIP on its submarines. It has never mentioned Brahmos. And Brahmos is a costly piece of equipment which cannot be fired in a salvo just to target 1 airbase, for that we need something in class of Klubs. And Scorpenes can perfectly use Naval Scalp.

 

[Gautam]

India to start bidding process by Oct to procure 6 submarines costing ₹55,000 cr

Updated: 30 Aug 2020, 04:30 PM IST
By PTI

The submarines will be built in India under strategic partnership model that allows domestic companies to join hands with leading foreign defence majors to produce high-end military platforms in the country and reduce import dependence

NEW DELHI : India is all set to launch the bidding process by next month for a ₹55,000-crore mega project to build six conventional submarines for the Indian Navy to narrow the gap with China's growing naval prowess, government sources said on Sunday.

The submarines will be built in India under the much-talked-about strategic partnership model that allows domestic companies to join hands with leading foreign defence majors to produce high-end military platforms in the country and reduce import dependence.

The sources said the groundwork like specifications of the submarines and other critical requirements for issuance of the RFP (request for proposal) for the mega project, named as P-75I, has been completed by separate teams of the defence ministry and the Indian Navy. The RFP will be issued by October, they added.

The defence ministry has already shortlisted two Indian shipyards and five foreign defence majors for the project, being billed as one of biggest "Make in India" ventures. The shortlisted Indian entities were L&T group and state-owned Mazagaon Docks Ltd (MDL) while the select foreign entities included ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems (Germany), Navantia (Spain) and Naval Group (France).

Initially, the defence ministry will issue RFPs to MDL and L&T and the two firms will have to submit their detailed bid after receiving the document. Subsequently, the L&T and MDL will have to select a foreign partner out of the five shortlisted entities, the sources said. The Indian Navy plans to acquire 24 new submarines, including six nuclear attack submarines, to bolster its underwater fighting capability. It currently has 15 conventional submarines and two nuclear submarines.

The Navy has been focusing on significantly bolstering its overall capabilities in view of China's growing efforts to increase its military presence in the Indian Ocean Region.

The Indian Ocean, considered the backyard of the Indian Navy, is critical to the country's strategic interests.

According to global naval analysts, Chinese navy currently has over 50 submarines and about 350 ships. The total number of ships and submarines is projected to go past 500 in next 8-10 years.

The Indian Navy is also in the process of procuring 57 carrier-borne fighter jets, 111 Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) and 123 multi-role helicopters under the strategic partnership model.

The policy envisages the establishment of long-term strategic partnerships with Indian defence majors through a transparent and competitive process wherein they would tie up with global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) to seek technology transfers.

Initially, the strategic partners will be selected in four segments - fighter aircraft, helicopters, submarines and armoured fighting vehicles/main battle tanks. It is expected to be expanded to other segments.

In the last few months, the government has unveiled a series of reform measures and initiatives to make India a hub of defence manufacturing.

On August 9, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh announced that India will stop the import of 101 weapons and military platforms like transport aircraft, light combat helicopters, conventional submarines, cruise missiles and sonar systems by 2024.

In May, the government announced increasing the FDI limit from 49% to 74% under the automatic route in the defence sector.

India is one the largest importers of arms globally. According to estimates, the Indian armed forces are projected to spend around $130 billion in capital procurement in the next five years.

The government now wants to reduce dependence on imported military platforms and has decided to support the domestic defence manufacturing.
The defence ministry has set a goal of a turnover of $25 billion ( ₹1.75 trillion) in defence manufacturing in the next five years that included an export target of $5 billion ( ₹35,000 crore) worth of military hardware.

India to start bidding process by Oct to procure 6 submarines costing ₹55,000 cr

The submarines will be built in India under strategic partnership model that allows domestic companies to join hands with leading foreign defence majors to produce high-end military platforms in the country and reduce import dependence

www.livemint.com

 

[Ashwin]

Naval Dockyard Mumbai has more experience with Submarines and their repair than HSL. MDL has actually built 4 SSKs in service and 4 more under various stages. HSL and SBC are different.

Navy wants a Land Attack Cruise Missile Launch capability and AIP on its submarines. It has never mentioned Brahmos. And Brahmos is a costly piece of equipment which cannot be fired in a salvo just to target 1 airbase, for that we need something in class of Klubs. And Scorpenes can perfectly use Naval Scalp.

Putting 2.5 ton Brahmos in an SSK is a pipe dream sold by Russians. As usual, fanboys want to put Brahmos everywhere. Next would be on PSLV.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Putting 2.5 ton Brahmos in an SSK is a pipe dream sold by Russians. As usual, fanboys want to put Brahmos everywhere. Next would be on PSLV.

~1.5 tons subsonic land attack missile with atleast a 200-250kg warhead is what Navy will be aiming for. Unlike the 877s and Type209s where only certain number of tubes can carry missiles, Scorpene or the French offerings in P75I can carry and reload all the tubes with missiles also. So a Scorpene actually can carry 18 LACMs in a dedicated mission profile.

Apart from weight brahmos is cost prohibitive also

 

[RISING SUN]

The #defence ministry has already shortlisted two Indian shipyards and five foreign defence majors for the project, being billed as one of biggest "Make in India" ventures.https://t.co/RjuQjutpBP

— Economic Times (@EconomicTimes) August 31, 2020

 

[randomradio]

Navy wants a Land Attack Cruise Missile Launch capability and AIP on its submarines. It has never mentioned Brahmos. And Brahmos is a costly piece of equipment which cannot be fired in a salvo just to target 1 airbase, for that we need something in class of Klubs.

Naturally, the VLS will also be equipped to fire other types of missiles, like the LR-LACM.

Base attacks happen in salvos. And LR-LACM appears to be equivalent to the Klub anyway.

And Scorpenes can perfectly use Naval Scalp.

Only from the torpedo tubes. Not VLS. Hence the number of missiles available is far too less. Probably just 2 or 3 out of a total of 6, but that will come at the cost of anti-ship and anti-sub missiles. Also salvo launch is not possible, beyond 2 at a time.

 

[randomradio]

Putting 2.5 ton Brahmos in an SSK is a pipe dream sold by Russians. As usual, fanboys want to put Brahmos everywhere. Next would be on PSLV.

Dude, just the other month you were claiming Pakistan will invest in SSBs, with SSKs modified to carry ballistic missiles.

How on earth did you change your tune overnight?

 

[randomradio]

~1.5 tons subsonic land attack missile with atleast a 200-250kg warhead is what Navy will be aiming for.

Not enough. Need a 450Kg warhead at the minimum for a subsonic missile.

Apart from weight brahmos is cost prohibitive also

Cost doesn't matter, the capability is more important since the numbers are few.

It's $720M for 144 missiles or half that if the navy's planning a mix of Brahmos and LR-LACM. That's nothing more than an army regiment or two. It's actually not a lot.

 

[Ashwin]

Dude, just the other month you were claiming Pakistan will invest in SSBs, with SSKs modified to carry ballistic missiles.

How on earth did you change your tune overnight?

I said submarine-launched nuclear-capable (tactical) missile. Possibly an already tested variant of Babur-3 missile which is just ~1.5 ton.

Isolation is getting to you, It was like 6 months ago.

 

[randomradio]

I said submarine-launched nuclear-capable (tactical) missile. Possibly an already tested variant of Babur-3 missile which is just ~1.5 ton.

Isolation is getting to you, It was like 6 months ago.

Haha, changed your tune, eh? Okay.

 

[Ashwin]

Haha, changed your tune, eh? Okay.

No, i didn't. Please show me the post where I said otherwise. I specifically quoted the Pakistani underwater test just like above.

I don't change the definition of terms (like MTOW) and runaway.

 

[Bon Plan]

Only from the torpedo tubes. Not VLS. Hence the number of missiles available is far too less. Probably just 2 or 3 out of a total of 6, but that will come at the cost of anti-ship and anti-sub missiles. Also salvo launch is not possible, beyond 2 at a time.

A scorpene can embark up to 18 SCALP Naval (but a no use config, because no torpedoe in this case !). but why not 12 SCALP, and 6 torpedoes for defense.
A VLS is indeed a better solution.

 

[Sathya]

Some where in twitter World I read, one or two contenders of next gen sub competition are offering 8 subs @ the cost of 6 .

 

[randomradio]

No, i didn't. Please show me the post where I said otherwise. I specifically quoted the Pakistani underwater test just like above.

I don't change the definition of terms (like MTOW) and runaway.

I recall you were busy talking about SSBs a few months ago.

 

[randomradio]

A scorpene can embark up to 18 SCALP Naval (but a no use config, because no torpedoe in this case !). but why not 12 SCALP, and 6 torpedoes for defense.
A VLS is indeed a better solution.

6 torpedoes is too less.

Some where in twitter World I read, one or two contenders of next gen sub competition are offering 8 subs @ the cost of 6 .

That wouldn't make sense. They can simply offer 6 subs and win the tender instead.

 

[Ashwin]

Some where in twitter World I read, one or two contenders of next gen sub competition are offering 8 subs @ the cost of 6 .

Not happening. Its not possible to change tender details in-between without significant delay in multiple years.

I recall you were busy talking about SSBs a few months ago.

All my arguments were based on the Pakistani underwater test and a follow-on oped article (which was the thread about if i remember correctly).

 

[randomradio]

Not happening. Its not possible to change tender details in-between without significant delay in multiple years.


All my arguments were based on the Pakistani underwater test and a follow-on oped article (which was the thread about if i remember correctly).

Okay, I don't remember. Anyway, both N Korea and S Korea are working on SSBs which can launch ballistic missiles.