AESA is a requirement. No Russian aircraft is coming
Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Himanshu
- Start date
That's my point.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, if the tender progresses today, let's say Korea wins, then we will build the Korean subs. This is regardless of whether the France or USN or RuN offer a nuke sub. It's gonna be irrelevant to P-75I.
Or the tender should collapse. And if that happens, the IN may take the indigenous route instead, while buying stopgap SSKs from Russia.
It's bad news. The contest should have been between Korea and one of the Euro powerhouses. Sweden and France were the best bets. Now we are stuck with Spain. Let's hope it still progresses though.
The Scorpene leak is unlikely to affect the functioning of the sub since even France is unlikely to have information about "our" subs, information that needs to be kept secret. What was leaked was just general information, like the specs of aircraft at the bottom of the Wiki page, and it wasn't published or given away.
AFAIK, each sub costs nearly $1B each, that's what we paid for the subs alone. The remaining amount is for extra stuff. Apart from ground equipment, training and spares, we should have received ToT for use on our own subs. It isn't a simple contract. The full amount may also be unrelated to the submarine itself.
That's fine. Ships and subs can be pushed well beyond their design life via rebuilds. Aircraft are a lot harder, and we have done that as well. The Myanmar version saw a significant rebuild, including a very significant replacement of the hull plates themselves.
It's not a good idea. But it can be done.
And since we have lost this decade, it's our only option to keep a viable fleet active.
The 3 additional Kilos can be delivered at the end of the 3rd, 4th and 5th years after contract signature.
After we signed the contract in 2005, we started P-75I in 2008 with an RFI. The plan back then was to build 2 in the OEM's country, 3 at MDL and 1 at HSL. This program didn't move because of the massive oil prices and slowed growth.
Post-Modi, the program changed to all 6 in India and the involvement of Reliance and L&T. Once that was sorted, in 2017 a new RFI was sent out. During this time, they worked on the SPM process, which was finalised by end of 2020. Then they released the RFP by mid-2021. So this is just a continuation of what began in 2017.
The fear is not the delay in the project, but fear of cancellation due to competitors lacking AIP and renewal of the tender, or something else. Recall that I used to say only the Korean sub is ready for the RFP? That fear seems to be coming true. If it wasn't for that, the competition was progressing smoothly anyway. Now the only hope is the Spanish sub meets the RFP.
Choosing subs that don't meet specs isn't desirable. It will become like the F-35 program. The alternative is to just upgrade existing stuff anyway, like what the IN is doing right now with the second refit of the Kilos and 209s.
We currently have 17 SSKs, out of an optimum 18. If we go for the Russian offer of 3 extra Kilos, our numbers will rise to 20. As long as all the old subs are upgraded. Hence the desire to not delay P-75I.
So our only hope is to upgrade all old subs, and sign the P-75I contract within a year from now. Without the upgrades, the numbers will fall dangerously quickly. And without P-75I, our submarine fleet will also fall in line behind the IAF's squadron drawdown.
France backed out because it's "fuel cell based prototype" FC2G was not proven on a submarine (same status as of DRDO but 2nd gen), not the MESMA one. Even MESMA one is actually active on 8 subs with 3 more on order.
No definitive way to compare both. One major difference between the two is DRDO one will store hydrides from which Hydrogen will be generated. Whereas the French one uses a reformer chemical to seperate Hydrogen from the fuel available.
So in theory the French one should be more compact. But the DRDO one will have less fumes exhaust to worry about so DRDO one should be more stealthy.
Spain? with a failed and not on duty S80? A joke.
They are struggling to find a customer... I doubt they read all the small ligns.
Fake news.
You are late Bro. It was only some marketing datas.
60% localisation is mandatory according to the RFP. Lockheed Martin, BAE etc companies are actually involved in the construction of submarines. So it's pretty much clear that Spain will be non complaint. They have just not withdraw on their own.
No need the Korean sub is the most mature platform. And Koreans are one of the best guys to partner if we want actual transfer of technology. I hope the Koreans win this and we get access to their hyunmoo series and integrate it along with our brahmos and nirbhay. Thankfully there's no single vendor situation. That would be another horror show.
Please help me understand - we have subs made from Russia + Germany + France i.e. 3 countries. Now, we are forced to purchase sub from a 4th country (i.e. South Korea or Spain)?
a) What else do we gain from South Korea or Spain for the submarine order? i.e. Both of them don't have a veto power or any other strategic offerings. Their economy are also not big.
b) Why not go with French? I know - their AIP does not meet standards. Is it still worth purchasing a major weapon system from a country that does not offer anything via veto power or any other strategic significance?
c) Given the current environment, can India afford to give any big order to Russians for the next 5 years at a minimum?
My 0.2 cents is to give another 3 sub orders of scorpene or similar and then start building indigenous subs. No point in going with South koreans / spanish.
I guess - our procurement system is too rule driven to our own detriment.
Maybe, it is better for the tender to collapse Vs buying subs from a 4th country. Better to stick with Russia / France / Germany as we already operate their subs.
How did ToT from Kangam for Minesweepers deal turned out ?
The most critical thing that South Koreans actually hold IPR of in their submarine offering is the Li-Ion batteries.
UK, Spain, France , Germany and USA are actually suppliers for critical technologies. We are demanding 60% localisation in production and ToT for some critical technologies like the Sonar suite.
Let me tell you if atleast India respects the IPRs in this program, then South Korea will loose again.
The Korean one is fine. But we are still stuck with Spain as the main competitor for now.
The sub is necessary for warfighting, not diplomacy.
The French withdrew. They weren't kicked out.
Yes. It is possible right after the invasion is over. With the exception of upgrades, I don't think any new big order is planned for this year anyway.
Too late for Scorpenes. Yeah, indigenous subs will gain prominence if the tender fails. The Korean sub is excellent.
The number of types is not an issue, it doesn't really follow the same rules as fighter jets. In any case, most of the Russian and German subs will pretty much be gone by the time P-75I enters in full force. It's a replacement.
As per the Koreans, the first batch of KSS-IIIs have an indigenisation level of 76%. It will become higher as the program progresses.
Instead of asking for retired Kilos, if a mechanism is worked out for newer Kilos meant for Pacific Fleet to be transferred on a 10 year lease to India. That solution is actually good.
Might be a bit more costly, but will be quicker and safer.