Project 75 India Diesel-electric Submarine Programs (SSK) : Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

The irony of the Navantia (Spain) bid is that the S80 class is a modified version of the Scorpene class SSK, the same boat that is in service with the Indian Navy. It would be tragic - in terms of the lack of lessons learned from the Kalvari Class programme - if the Indian Navy chose the S80 Class submarine.

From a construction and learning curve point of view, the S80 class would be ideally suited to the Indian Navy. The problem is that the manpower that built the Kalvari class vessels is with MDL and Navantia has partnered with L&T for the S80 class. So the learning curve will be just as long (leading to delays), for an entirely new workforce that has to be trained.

You are negotiating with DCNS for three more Scorpenes (which are also being modified and carrying more Indian equipment, with the DRDO AIP being a key element).

Why doesn't the Indian Navy abandon this absurd competition and go ahead with the construction of the Scorpene? Build six more boats (instead of three) as part of project 75A. Then, instead of project 76, make a follow-up programme for project 75B (six more boats). And so on. Each subsequent class will have a higher level of Indian content, with the ultimate goal being a fully indigenous boat. That's what you're doing now with the Delhi class (project 15), the Kolkata class (project 15A), the Visakhapatnam class (project 15B), and so on.

What do the Spanish have - to sell a modified Scorpene - that India doesn't have with the Kalvari class? Do you have a long-term vision for a partnership with a foreign equipment manufacturer?

I'm not entirely sure the navy's happy with MDL though. It's also unclear why MDL chose Germany over Spain, when an MDL + Navantia partnership with a Scorpene cousin was the most obvious choice.

Scorpene doesn't meet future requirements of the navy. With a 6.2m beam and 5.8m draft, it's significantly smaller than the S-80's 11.8m and 7.3m. The Type 216 may see similar numbers too. There is a need for increased endurance, armaments, sensor size etc. So the 3 new Scorpenes are acting as a stopgap, no different from the IAF's LCA Mk1A contract and the IA's new plan to rebuild their T-72s.

And, as per Indian procurement rules, since the submarine requirement is for a whole new class, they need to start a new procurement process from scratch. And it's also a product of the govt's reforms, so previous procurements no longer apply. So new process means new QRs and new JVs.

Imagine HAL choosing Boeing instead of Sukhoi for MRFA, if the Russians are allowed to participate. Goes against common sense, but in this case the past doesn't matter.

A small correction in your post for project names.
P-75 = Scorpene
P-75I = SSK tender
P-75A = SSN
P-76 = Indian SSK

A batchwise production plan is being aimed for Indian designs, both 75A and 76. The IN doesn't want to deal with multiple contracts and multiple configurations for the same design when they have limited control. It's because the IN expects to make design changes to the hull during production, which an FOEM may not be comfortable with.

It's unclear how an FOEM may participate in either program. Maybe direct transfers, like a diesel engine and pumpjet propulsion or design input or both. AMCA will serve as a good example. The winner of P-75I may be expected to contribute to P-76 at the very least, the same as MRFA. So long term engagement should be an obvious outcome of the tender for both SSK programs. The SSN is aimed for 95% and 97% indigenization in 2 batches, so FOEM input could be limited to consultancies of some sort, or even an AMCA engine type deal, where IP is shared, but we get 100% ToT, which pushes up the indigenization percentage.

 

[Ashwin]

The irony of the Navantia (Spain) bid is that the S80 class is a modified version of the Scorpene class SSK, the same boat that is in service with the Indian Navy. It would be tragic - in terms of the lack of lessons learned from the Kalvari Class programme - if the Indian Navy chose the S80 Class submarine.

From a construction and learning curve point of view, the S80 class would be ideally suited to the Indian Navy. The problem is that the manpower that built the Kalvari class vessels is with MDL and Navantia has partnered with L&T for the S80 class. So the learning curve will be just as long (leading to delays), for an entirely new workforce that has to be trained.

You are negotiating with DCNS for three more Scorpenes (which are also being modified and carrying more Indian equipment, with the DRDO AIP being a key element).

Why doesn't the Indian Navy abandon this absurd competition and go ahead with the construction of the Scorpene? Build six more boats (instead of three) as part of project 75A. Then, instead of project 76, make a follow-up programme for project 75B (six more boats). And so on. Each subsequent class will have a higher level of Indian content, with the ultimate goal being a fully indigenous boat. That's what you're doing now with the Delhi class (project 15), the Kolkata class (project 15A), the Visakhapatnam class (project 15B), and so on.

What do the Spanish have - to sell a modified Scorpene - that India doesn't have with the Kalvari class? Do you have a long-term vision for a partnership with a foreign equipment manufacturer?

You are looking at it purely from a commercial point of view.

In 1980's, It made total sense for the French to move forward with "Future European Fighter Aircraft" partnership. Why did you split? Because there were differing requirements. The common sense solution didn't matter when the Eurofighter can never be optimized to operate from carriers.

It doesn't matter that there is already a line producing Scorpenes because that's not what the navy needs next. The navy needs a bigger, longer endurance, and firepower-capable SSK, for which Scorpenes are not good enough. I presume it's because the navy doesn't see itself using SSNs in a meaningful manner even in the next decade. A bigger SSK is the stopgap. The same way why japan and Korea evolved into building bigger subs.

There will not be any issues with skilled manpower loss because Project 76 and three follow-on Scorpenes are being developed in parallel. We do not have any vision of partnerships because we insist on doing everything on our own, whether it is good or bad.

 

[Ashwin]

"The first group of Indian naval officers will be visiting Germany to evaluate the boats, which offer AIP in the next 10 days. We have put a good offer on the table and are ready to fine tune it further. The German government is very supportive of the TKMS proposal with MDL"

 

[Bon Plan]

P-75I will carry Indian SLCM, Brahmos-M and very likely a new Indian HWT. It's unclear what electronics we would prefer. Spain could offer a customizable deal.

The motor will be Indian, a 5 kW one. Indian Li-ion batteries too. So they only need to make sure the diesel engine is sufficiently uprated.

So it is a modified S80 plus sub.
When you see how the original sub is late, I think it is risky to choose that sub with such modifications.

I don't have to imagine, there is no proven system that DCNS can offer.

You are wrong : See the pak Agosta, with a mature AIP system for years.

 

[randomradio]

So it is a modified S80 plus sub.
When you see how the original sub is late, I think it is risky to choose that sub with such modifications.

The opposite. The risk is reduced. A new sub design will see more risk.

 

[Ashwin]

You are wrong : See the pak Agosta, with a mature AIP system for years.

Maybe study the requirement and why DCNS backed out. We already have AIP

 

[Bon Plan]

The opposite. The risk is reduced. A new sub design will see more risk.

It is a new design. S80 used some "stolen" datas from Scorpene, but is a new design.
It is not mature.

 

[randomradio]

It is a new design. S80 used some "stolen" datas from Scorpene, but is a new design.
It is not mature.

It is mature. One sub is already operational, and 3 more are on the way. At least 3 subs will be operational by the time we sign a contract. And all 4 subs before we start the construction of our first one.

 

[Amarante]

It is mature. One sub is already operational, (…)

Huh!
… The AIP will not be integrated into the S-80 until the third unit has been commissioned, and its development has been a nightmare for many reasons.

Articles | S-80 Program - The multiple problems of the AIP

The Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) is one of the key components of the future S-80 Plus. Recently presented by Navantia under the name “Best”, this system promises to give our submariners a clear tactical advantage. Now, the AIP will not be incorporated into the S-80 until the entry...

www.revistaejercitos.com

 

[randomradio]

Huh!
… The AIP will not be integrated into the S-80 until the third unit has been commissioned, and its development has been a nightmare for many reasons.

Articles | S-80 Program - The multiple problems of the AIP

The Air Independent Propulsion System (AIP) is one of the key components of the future S-80 Plus. Recently presented by Navantia under the name “Best”, this system promises to give our submariners a clear tactical advantage. Now, the AIP will not be incorporated into the S-80 until the entry...

www.revistaejercitos.com

The AIP completed factory acceptance tests last year so it's production-ready.

The submarine itself is operational today, so it will become operationally proven during the tender. We will make our decision only in 2025 after all.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The AIP completed factory acceptance tests last year so it's production-ready.

The submarine itself is operational today, so it will become operationally proven during the tender. We will make our decision only in 2025 after all.

There is no proof that Navantia has correctly calculated the mass of the submarine with the AIP and that GE will not have to be called again to correct the fault if the submarine remains on the seabed!

 

[randomradio]

There is no proof that Navantia has correctly calculated the mass of the submarine with the AIP and that GE will not have to be called again to correct the fault if the submarine remains on the seabed!

That's easily managed with an extra AIP power module and uprated or even additional diesel engines. Even extra batteries.

We need quite a bit of modifications for our version, since it will come with VLS.

A sub's not like an aircraft, it is easily modified. We can change things even while it's being contructed. So our sub could end up with 4 diesel engines and 2 AIP modules along with extra Li-ion batteries.

 

[Rajput Lion]

By the looks of it(and my guess too), it should be S-80 that is going to get selected as so far Spain is offering us more tech(than rivals) along with almost full TOT. Fingers crossed.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

By the looks of it(and my guess too), it should be S-80 that is going to get selected as so far Spain is offering us more tech(than rivals) along with almost full TOT. Fingers crossed.

Oops! The Spanish Navy Is Constructing New Submarines That Are Too Big For Their Pens​

Spain will likely have to spend millions of dollars to build a proper home for the boats, which have already suffered years of problems and delays.

Then, in 2013, Navantia uncovered a serious and potentially fatal design flaw. The addition of more than 100 tons of added weight during development had thrown off the boat’s buoyancy characteristics, which meant it might not be able to resurface reliably.

“Apparently somebody in the calculations made a mistake in the very beginning and nobody paid attention to review the calculations,” Rafael Bardaji, formerly the director of the Office of Strategic Assessment at Spain’s Defense Ministry and subsequently a defense consultant, said at the time. He blamed the matter on a single misplaced decimal point.

The company, with outside help from American sub maker Electric Boat, a division of General Dynamics, eventually added 16 distinct extensions in the hull, renaming the resulting design the S-80 Plus.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Oops! The Spanish Navy Is Constructing New Submarines That Are Too Big For Their Pens​

Spain will likely have to spend millions of dollars to build a proper home for the boats, which have already suffered years of problems and delays.

Its all in the past dear.

Now they will money of your design. You dont even have a SSK fleet to innovate on it. These are better options honestly.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Its all in the past dear.

Now they will money of your design. You dont even have a SSK fleet to innovate on it. These are better options honestly.

Regardless, the S-80 Plus program still has other issues to overcome, chiefly with its fuel-cell based air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. This type of arrangement is a core feature in any modern non-nuclear submarine designs. The technology is steadily advancing to the point that boats with AIP systems, as well as improved batteries, may be quieter, and therefore stealthier and more survivable, than nuclear-powered types and be able to remain underwater for weeks at a time.

But rather than leverage an in-production system or hire an established manufacturer to build a new one specifically for the S-80 Plus, Spain hired two domestic firms, Técnicas Reunidas and Abengoa, to build one. By most accounts, their design has been underperforming, with past demonstrations indicating that the system will be able to propel the boats while submerged for 21 days, a week shorter than required.

These problems appear to have put plans to export the design on hold, as well. In October 2017, Navantia decided not to enter the S-80 Plus in an Indian Navy submarine competition, despite its initial interest in the program.

 

[Sathya]

Are we going to integrate Indian AIP during scorpene refit?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Its all in the past dear.

Now they will money of your design. You dont even have a SSK fleet to innovate on it. These are better options honestly.

It's true that it's very interesting for India to have as a partner a submarine manufacturer that steals the design of a French submarine and is unable to modify it in such a way that it can surface once it has dived. I'm sure the transferred ToT will be very interesting.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Regardless, the S-80 Plus program still has other issues to overcome, chiefly with its fuel-cell based air-independent propulsion (AIP) system. This type of arrangement is a core feature in any modern non-nuclear submarine designs. The technology is steadily advancing to the point that boats with AIP systems, as well as improved batteries, may be quieter, and therefore stealthier and more survivable, than nuclear-powered types and be able to remain underwater for weeks at a time.

But rather than leverage an in-production system or hire an established manufacturer to build a new one specifically for the S-80 Plus, Spain hired two domestic firms, Técnicas Reunidas and Abengoa, to build one. By most accounts, their design has been underperforming, with past demonstrations indicating that the system will be able to propel the boats while submerged for 21 days, a week shorter than required.

These problems appear to have put plans to export the design on hold, as well. In October 2017, Navantia decided not to enter the S-80 Plus in an Indian Navy submarine competition, despite its initial interest in the program.

Doesnt matter when we will have 3rd gen AIP certified by you guys.

It's true that it's very interesting for India to have as a partner a submarine manufacturer that steals the design of a French submarine and is unable to modify it in such a way that it can surface once it has dived. I'm sure the transferred ToT will be very interesting.

Nothing interesting about it since everything is fixed.

Whats interesting is how you guys will survive in the market with the entry of Spain and Korea. Lets not forget the humiliation by the aussies.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Whats interesting is how you guys will survive in the market with the entry of Spain and Korea. Lets not forget the humiliation by the aussies.

I think there's more risk of humiliation for the Australians, the Spanish and you, than for us. At least we have systems that work.

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