Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Aurora]

They are sitting on a large cash pile which they want to invest. The worse their own economy performs, the more they need access to foreign markets. And when it comes to Iran, it is also about oil security.

$400B over 5 years is not a lot of money to China. It's merely $80B a year, and pretty much most of it will be profitable.

Maybe you are right. But I am not so sure. Given the mess they are in they would like to save all their resources for themselves, to improve their economy instead of investing it in foreign countries. Also size of their purse is going to decrease. Already tens of millions have lost job in China due to stoppage of exports. In next five years, these sanctions will only increase hence decreasing the fiscal space for CCP.
Also there are other factors which could sabotage this deal like pressure from India and US. Threat of regime change as local population is not in much favour of these deals. But as these factors are not directly related to Chinese financial situation hence we could ignore them in present discussion.

 

[randomradio]

Maybe you are right. But I am not so sure. Given the mess they are in they would like to save all their resources for themselves, to improve their economy instead of investing it in foreign countries. Also size of their purse is going to decrease. Already tens of millions have lost job in China due to stoppage of exports. In next five years, these sanctions will only increase hence decreasing the fiscal space for CCP.
Also there are other factors which could sabotage this deal like pressure from India and US. Threat of regime change as local population is not in much favour of these deals. But as these factors are not directly related to Chinese financial situation hence we could ignore them in present discussion.

Most of their money now comes from the middle class and rich, who have secure jobs due to the size of their economy. So they can compensate for the job losses.

Plus their economic growth can compensate for loss of access to most international markets anyway.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Greece is almost on the verge of signing 2 deals. One for 18 Rafales with France (mix still not 100% sure) to replace the oldest of Mirage 2000 and 4 frigates (unknown origin, might be American).

 

[A Person]

Since when Indian pilots were training in France?

At Mérignac, since October 2019. Training should continue there until March 2021.

Mérignac is where Dassault does training, and it's a civilian airport so since it's not used to have a lot of fighter jet activity, the locals complain and that leaves a trace in newspapers with official explanations. I know Indian pilots also trained with the French Air Force, presumably at Saint-Dizier since that's where the Rafale training center is, but I don't know the start and end dates there.

 

[Ashwin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1304846005087752193

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

It's curious, when there's a real threat countries buy Rafales

 

[Lolwa]

Do we have any idea how dependent India has become on China, Irrespective of the bluster on the borders, have you seen the PM directly confronting the Chinese. When XI visits even 56 inch chested PM has to play jhula with him.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves, we might have some tactical advantages over the chinese in some mountain in the LAC, strategically, we are nowhere. Forget ball park we are not even in the same game as they are.

The strategy is being limited due to non-alignment. The moment we ditch non-alignment we will become the most strategically influential player. Modi is playing jhula to test Xi. Nothing genius about it. If Xi continues to show belligerence against Modi you will see a lot of Change of how India treats China and it has already started. We have been the strongest against the Chinese than any other country. Actions matter words don't. If we had Rahul gandhi saying kadi ninda and stuff and doing nothing on ground would you support him. Or Modi who plays jhula with Xi and screws China indirectly. So I'm pretty satisfied with the pace at we are going....

 

[Milspec]

What you're referring to is the LRIP deliveries, which began in 2011. And this was for the Russian version and not the follow-up export version. And they took a long time fixing all the problems associated with it, hence the long time for induction. The primary order for large scale induction came only in 2015. It wasn't ready when the IAF ordered 500 RVV-AEs in 2011.

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Оригинал взят у коллеги twower в Закупка ракет класса воздух-воздух На сайте госзакупок опубликован тендер Министерства обороны Поставка изделия 170-1 - ракеты класса воздух-воздух средней дальности. Количество закупаемых ракет в документации не указано. Срок…

bmpd.livejournal.com

So 2015-16 is when the missile was truly introduced. Kinda like how our primary order for LCA is still in process.

Anyway the IAF was pretty sure about moving away from Russian missiles in the long run. That's why the choice was between the Derby and Meteor. Russian export grade stuff isn't very good.



K-77M has been made for Su-57, and is still in the process of being introduced. It is yet to see full scale introduction, never mind spin-off variants for Flankers.

Yes, it was offered alongside PAK FA, but it wasn't even in flight testing at the time. It entered flight testing in 2015. IIRC, it cleared state trials in 2019 and right now it's in the process of achieving IOC. We have to wait for an export version, which is likely still in testing. I won't be surprised if it hasn't even begun testing. The Russians always make an export grade variant after the main variant is in service. So no K-77Ms yet for the IAF.

India could have become a development partner for both RVV-SD as well as K77M and ME, India chose not to from assurances from DRDO> Astra project, and it's foolhardy approach to Meteor on MKI. Remember there would have been no KH35 if there wasn't for the Indian participation.

Also not to forget, India has neither worked on developing its own variants for replacement of KH29/31/35/59 only work done probably is a KH31P of the NGARM, but that too is late and have had to order additional KH31P's in the interim.

The IAF is very keen on ordering the Scalp for the Rafale, but seems to have forgotten that 3M-14AE and KH59MK, are viable options to the same from a MKI.

 

[Lolwa]

Biggest defense of China is the US. US interests in China surpasses everything else.

And that's why the conservative American elite of U.S are trying to ditch the Chinese. The problem is the neo-liberal political elite want to have a good relations with the Chinese and basically want to become a Chinese vassal. Why they are doing this I don't have an idea..

 

[A Person]

The neoliberal elite has no loyalty to countries, only loyalty to money. States are to them not the organization of a nation, just a local component of the globalized trade system. What matters to the neo-liberal elite is that with China, you can outsource production so as to reduce the cost of labor, which means concentrate a greater portion of a corporation's income into its shareholders' pockets by reducing the portion that goes to the workers.

 

[Milspec]

The neoliberal elite has no loyalty to countries, only loyalty to money. States are to them not the organization of a nation, just a local component of the globalized trade system. What matters to the neo-liberal elite is that with China, you can outsource production so as to reduce the cost of labor, which means concentrate a greater portion of a corporation's income into its shareholders' pockets by reducing the portion that goes to the workers.

Capitalism 101

 

[randomradio]

India could have become a development partner for both RVV-SD as well as K77M and ME, India chose not to from assurances from DRDO> Astra project, and it's foolhardy approach to Meteor on MKI. Remember there would have been no KH35 if there wasn't for the Indian participation.

We didn't go for JVs for tech that we can develop ourselves. Astra Mk1 and Astra Mk2 are the equivalents of RVV-SD and K-77M, and any JV here would only lead to duplication. We have a JV for the Desi-Meteor though. The SFDR is based on a Russian ramjet, which started back in 2013.

Also not to forget, India has neither worked on developing its own variants for replacement of KH29/31/35/59 only work done probably is a KH31P of the NGARM, but that too is late and have had to order additional KH31P's in the interim.

We have programs for all of them. We are going through a step by step process using full indigenous technologies or through JVs. It's fine to import some requirement as a stop gap measure.

In the Kh-29 category, we have a whole family of glide bombs and powered bombs coming up in all weight classes with 4-5 times the range. And we are enhancing their accuracy with the integration of NAVIC.

In the Kh-35 and 59 category, we have 2-3 stealthy AShMs/LACMs in development for different ranges and payloads.

The IAF is very keen on ordering the Scalp for the Rafale, but seems to have forgotten that 3M-14AE and KH59MK, are viable options to the same from a MKI.

The western options are actually better. Some of the modern Russian types, like the X-59MK2 (Russia's modern SCALP equivalent), are still in development or are only recently finishing development, whereas western designs have been in operation since quite sometime and are battle proven, used against enemies that had air defences operational when attacked, like Iraq and Libya. Plus western weapons are cheaper when you consider the economies of scale, service life and LCC. And on top of that, with enough orders, they are willing to manufacture in India, unlike the Russians who demand full imports. There's really no contest there. MBDA has already set up a factory here, and plan to export from India.

Anyway our short term goal is to indigenise everything concerning weapons within the next few years. Only a small number of extremely hitech weapons will see imports or JVs in the future.

 

[randomradio]

The neoliberal elite has no loyalty to countries, only loyalty to money. States are to them not the organization of a nation, just a local component of the globalized trade system. What matters to the neo-liberal elite is that with China, you can outsource production so as to reduce the cost of labor, which means concentrate a greater portion of a corporation's income into its shareholders' pockets by reducing the portion that goes to the workers.

That's a good thing.

Then you tax those shareholders up to 45% of their income, so the govt can provide services and distribute that wealth to everybody else.

If most of that money goes to workers, then the govt doesn't get a lot of money since most of them are gonna fall below taxable income. Then the workers and the govt are always going to be poor. Only consolidated wealth can create more wealth.

If the country fails to play the game, then you will lose out on the work along with the profits and taxes since some other country will play the game and take everything away.

Fair game. The only losers are those who do not know how to play the game.

 

[Milspec]

We didn't go for JVs for tech that we can develop ourselves. Astra Mk1 and Astra Mk2 are the equivalents of RVV-SD and K-77M, and any JV here would only lead to duplication. We have a JV for the Desi-Meteor though. The SFDR is based on a Russian ramjet, which started back in 2013.

Highly doubt that. Irrespective today we stand with a fleet of (272MKI+65upg+54Bisons+45m2k+45 m29k) Thats 481 aircrafts today that Either have RVV-AE 80km, R27 70km, Mica 80km...
If the Pakistan altercation was not a wake-up call, IAF wouldn't have put in an emergency order for the R27 ET1/T1 R1/ER1 tranche that takes you to 120/130km which is your Aim120C5 ranges.

We have programs for all of them. We are going through a step by step process using full indigenous technologies or through JVs. It's fine to import some requirement as a stop gap measure.

In the Kh-29 category, we have a whole family of glide bombs and powered bombs coming up in all weight classes with 4-5 times the range. And we are enhancing their accuracy with the integration of NAVIC.

And what are these missiles?

In the Kh-35 and 59 category, we have 2-3 stealthy AShMs/LACMs in development for different ranges and payloads.

Which will take two decades to induct.

The western options are actually better. Some of the modern Russian types, like the X-59MK2 (Russia's modern SCALP equivalent), are still in development or are only recently finishing development, whereas western designs have been in operation since quite sometime and are battle proven, used against enemies that had air defences operational when attacked, like Iraq and Libya. Plus western weapons are cheaper when you consider the economies of scale, service life and LCC. And on top of that, with enough orders, they are willing to manufacture in India, unlike the Russians who demand full imports. There's really no contest there. MBDA has already set up a factory here, and plan to export from India.

no comment , I am not in the mood to argue costs. edit

Anyway our short term goal is to indigenise everything concerning weapons within the next few years. Only a small number of extremely hitech weapons will see imports or JVs in the future.

Dude, We cannot build small arm cartridges in 5.56 and 9mm that would work properly. Lets not talk about high tech at this point. We have been working on Astra since 2004 this is 2020 and even today IAF is buying R27's instead of Astra's. and when your own systems do not work and you have to buy russian, they will wring your neck and shove r27's down your throat at 700K USD per piece.

 

[A Person]

Then you tax those shareholders up to 45% of their income, so the govt can provide services and distribute that wealth to everybody else.

For tax purposes, they are residents of the British Virgin Islands or whichever other tax heaven. Remember, no country loyalty. Why would they pay taxes at home?

 

[randomradio]

Highly doubt that. Irrespective today we stand with a fleet of (272MKI+65upg+54Bisons+45m2k+45 m29k) Thats 481 aircrafts today that Either have RVV-AE 80km, R27 70km, Mica 80km...
If the Pakistan altercation was not a wake-up call, IAF wouldn't have put in an emergency order for the R27 ET1/T1 R1/ER1 tranche that takes you to 120/130km which is your Aim120C5 ranges.

We also have 200 Astra (110Km) and an unknown number of RVV-SD (110Km), out of the 400 ordered. Also, we have the 120+Km version of the R-27, ordered 800+ of those a decade ago and in 2012, apart from the 300 last year. The 70Km one is likely already out of service. A handful of Meteors as well.

And what are these missiles?

Powered versions based on the SAAW with seeker and some others, like the HSLD. The Indian Hammer family.

Which will take two decades to induct.

Lol, dude, your posts would be good only if you stop whining and make realistic assessments.

Dude, We cannot build small arm cartridges in 5.56 and 9mm that would work properly. Lets not talk about high tech at this point.

Yep. ISRO sucks too. Can't build a rifle for nuts, those space scientists. They need to build a rifle first and then go for rockets. Silly people, aiming for the moon and whatnot. Would recommend reading the quote above again. Everybody has a specific job. Some are good at some jobs, some are not. Just because some are bad at a job you are interested in doesn't mean you go around mocking everybody else unrelated to it. So yes, we are a country capable of building space rockets, SSBNs and fighter jets, but can't build a rifle for nuts.

We have been working on Astra since 2004 this is 2020 and even today IAF is buying R27's instead of Astra's. and when your own systems do not work and you have to buy russian, they will wring your neck and shove r27's down your throat at 700K USD per piece.

Whatchu talking about? We have 150 Astras and recently ordered 248 more.

And we aren't buying Russian missiles, we are buying Indian, French and Israeli, and should eventually switch to Indian over a few years. Except for piecemeal inductions, I don't think we are going to buy anything Russian anymore. Even the recent missile purchases from Russia were stopgap since we are running out of the older ones at an accelerated pace and killing off service life much earlier than planned. Hell, imports are going to be largely rejected from 2025 onwards.

 

[randomradio]

For tax purposes, they are residents of the British Virgin Islands or whichever other tax heaven. Remember, no country loyalty. Why would they pay taxes at home?

I was speaking generally, not specifically to a small number of people who avoid taxation in some unique ways. Individual countries have their own rules they are comfortable with. For example, Americans can't escape taxes no matter what they do while the UAE doesn't do income tax at all.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

It's curious, when there's a real threat countries buy Rafales

This time it seems it's more to do with a common problem, Turkey.

 

[Milspec]

We also have 200 Astra (110Km) and an unknown number of RVV-SD (110Km), out of the 400 ordered. Also, we have the 120+Km version of the R-27, ordered 800+ of those a decade ago and in 2012, apart from the 300 last year. The 70Km one is likely already out of service. A handful of Meteors as well.



Powered versions based on the SAAW with seeker and some others, like the HSLD. The Indian Hammer family.



Lol, dude, your posts would be good only if you stop whining and make realistic assessments.



Yep. ISRO sucks too. Can't build a rifle for nuts, those space scientists. They need to build a rifle first and then go for rockets. Silly people, aiming for the moon and whatnot. Would recommend reading the quote above again. Everybody has a specific job. Some are good at some jobs, some are not. Just because some are bad at a job you are interested in doesn't mean you go around mocking everybody else unrelated to it. So yes, we are a country capable of building space rockets, SSBNs and fighter jets, but can't build a rifle for nuts.



Whatchu talking about? We have 150 Astras and recently ordered 248 more.

And we aren't buying Russian missiles, we are buying Indian, French and Israeli, and should eventually switch to Indian over a few years. Except for piecemeal inductions, I don't think we are going to buy anything Russian anymore. Even the recent missile purchases from Russia were stopgap since we are running out of the older ones at an accelerated pace and killing off service life much earlier than planned. Hell, imports are going to be largely rejected from 2025 onwards.

I think we just ordered 1000 missiles from russia last year. That pretty much sums up all of the garbage you have written above.

India signs USD700 million deal with Russia for 1,000 additional air-to-air missiles

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has signed deals with Russia worth about USD700 million for an additional 1,000 air-to-air missiles (AAMs) to arm its fleets of MiG and Sukhoi...

www.janes.com

.

 

[Ashwin]