Shivalik Class (Project 17 A/B) & Talwar Class Frigates

[randomradio]

So by 2027 the IN will have inducted 14 brand new frigates (7 P17A+4 11356) in the space of 5 years? That’s really not a bad effort, just hope that they give another 7+ order for P-17As, would be criminal to throw away the capacity that is being created by MDL and GRSE.

Once we take deliveries of all these ships, we will be only 1 frigate short of the IN's sanctioned strength of 24 frigates. So the govt has to increase the sanctioned strength, the navy itself can do little about it.

Now IN really needs to sort out it’s Destroyer program, the P15Bs were ordered in too few quantities and project management and supplier issues have delayed delivery by years.

Yeah, we will still be short of destroyers for many more years after the P-15Bs are delivered. But right now only MDL is capable of building destroyers. I hope GRSE will join the list of builders soon.

+ any clarity on the SAM system for these 11356s? A real weakness vis a vis the 17A is the lack of LRSAM and MFSTAR

It will be the Shtil-1. It's VLS, so it's fine. Not on the same level as the Barak 8, but it can stop all kinds of subsonic and supersonic missiles.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Yeah, we will still be short of destroyers for many more years after the P-15Bs are delivered. But right now only MDL is capable of building destroyers. I hope GRSE will join the list of builders soon.

I see no reason why GRSE cannot get in the destroyer game if they can build the 17A.

It will be the Shtil-1. It's VLS, so it's fine. Not on the same level as the Barak 8, but it can stop all kinds of subsonic and supersonic missiles.

This is my biggest issue with the 11356 deal, sure the weapons and sensors are adequate but when the IN is in the process of inducting far more capable systems on their frontline vessels why should these ships be immune? The BARAK-8/LRSAM+MFSTAR combo is incredibly deadly, any deployment of Talwar class vessel will be a sub-optimal one and considering this latest batch will be indcuted at the same time as te 17As come online it just doesn't make any sense. Yet again the Russians have been allowed to fleece India.

 

[Parthu]

The new ships will look amazing with an integrated mast.

Afaik, the Admiral Grigorovich-class (which is what the 2 unfinished ships are) have no such thing. It's the same Fregat-M2M radar as the Krivaks (Batch-1/2 Talwars).

 

[randomradio]

Afaik, the Admiral Grigorovich-class (which is what the 2 unfinished ships are) have no such thing. It's the same Fregat-M2M radar as the Krivaks (Batch-1/2 Talwars).

AFAIK, Shtil-1 comes with AESA.

Yeah, it looks like all 4 ships are basically more Talwars.

 

[randomradio]

I see no reason why GRSE cannot get in the destroyer game if they can build the 17A.

Yep. Once the 17A is done, the possibility of destroyers will open up for them. There's room for 5 more destroyers after the P-15B.

I suppose there will be a pretty big expansion planned after IN reaches 24 frigates and 15 destroyers.

This is my biggest issue with the 11356 deal, sure the weapons and sensors are adequate but when the IN is in the process of inducting far more capable systems on their frontline vessels why should these ships be immune? The BARAK-8/LRSAM+MFSTAR combo is incredibly deadly, any deployment of Talwar class vessel will be a sub-optimal one and considering this latest batch will be indcuted at the same time as te 17As come online it just doesn't make any sense. Yet again the Russians have been allowed to fleece India.

It can't be helped. We needed more ships, and the Russians can provide it quickly and affordably. The P-17A is twice as expensive. The IN had already pointed out that the supply from Indian shipyards cannot meet demand.

 

[Parthu]

AFAIK, Shtil-1 comes with AESA.

Yeah, it looks like all 4 ships are basically more Talwars.

Shtil-1 is the same SAM system as exists on existing 6 Talwars, only thing different on the Batch-3 will be 9M317ME round, which is the same round as we use today, except adapted for VLS launch.

 

[randomradio]

Shtil-1 is the same SAM system as exists on existing 6 Talwars, only thing different on the Batch-3 will be 9M317ME round, which is the same round as we use today, except adapted for VLS launch.

Yeah, I think that designation is correct. Only the launcher has to be changed.

 

[R!cK]

I see no reason why GRSE cannot get in the destroyer game if they can build the 17A.




This is my biggest issue with the 11356 deal, sure the weapons and sensors are adequate but when the IN is in the process of inducting far more capable systems on their frontline vessels why should these ships be immune? The BARAK-8/LRSAM+MFSTAR combo is incredibly deadly, any deployment of Talwar class vessel will be a sub-optimal one and considering this latest batch will be indcuted at the same time as te 17As come online it just doesn't make any sense. Yet again the Russians have been allowed to fleece India.

I agree with your point. Personally, I'd think that this money could have been better spent on 3 P17As from Goa or 7 NG Corvettes from either Goa/Cochin/L&T. The specs on the Talwars doesn't match up with the money we are paying, nor do they make sense to begin deployment past the 2020s. If cost of P17A was the concern, IN should have designed a light frigate of 4000 tons with 16 Barak-8 and 4-8 Brahmos. A fleet of 10 of those could have been built faster with 2 shipyards being assigned to them much like how Chinese developed and deployed their Type 054A frigates. It shouldn't have been difficult to develop the Karmota hull to serve as a frigate with minor changes. At the moment the displacement of our latest frigates and destroyers are going to be very identical with almost similar weapons load out, to a point it gets confusing why P17As are considered frigates and not destroyers.

Good Day!

 

[GuardianRED]

Apart from Drawings - do we have a model of what the P17A will look like?

 

[Amal]

Apart from Drawings - do we have a model of what the P17A will look like?

 

[Abingdonboy]

It can't be helped. We needed more ships, and the Russians can provide it quickly and affordably. The P-17A is twice as expensive. The IN had already pointed out that the supply from Indian shipyards cannot meet demand.

This is a total red herring, they are also considerably more capable- you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. Besides, an order for 3-4 more 17As would've had signfiicant cost savings automatically. This is just a guess but I would say any additional 17As ordered could easily be 30-40% cheaper simply becuase the infra at both MDL and GRSE is already there to build such monsters now and capital investment on capacity is always the most expensive part of these deals.

Yep. Once the 17A is done, the possibility of destroyers will open up for them. There's room for 5 more destroyers after the P-15B.

There will be plenty of destroyer work

I agree with your point. Personally, I'd think that this money could have been better spent on 3 P17As from Goa or 7 NG Corvettes from either Goa/Cochin/L&T. The specs on the Talwars doesn't match up with the money we are paying, nor do they make sense to begin deployment past the 2020s. If cost of P17A was the concern, IN should have designed a light frigate of 4000 tons with 16 Barak-8 and 4-8 Brahmos. A fleet of 10 of those could have been built faster with 2 shipyards being assigned to them much like how Chinese developed and deployed their Type 054A frigates. It shouldn't have been difficult to develop the Karmota hull to serve as a frigate with minor changes. At the moment the displacement of our latest frigates and destroyers are going to be very identical with almost similar weapons load out, to a point it gets confusing why P17As are considered frigates and not destroyers.

Good Day!

The groundwork for all of this exists, sadly this seems like another freebie to the Russians for god knows what reason. The military case for these ships is SO weak and the industrial case is almost non-existent.

It would be one thing if these ships were somehow better than what the IN was getting from Indian yards but they simply aren't, the 17As are many notchs above (in terms ot firepower, capability and sensors) and it's not even like they will come any sooner (2022 for first 17A also). These "new" vessels are very modest updates on what the IN inducted over a decade ago now and by the time they enter service will be about 15 years old already (in design terms).


India can demand the very best from Israel, France and (to an extent) the US but when it comes to Russia the same story plays out- needless deals that neither fit into an industrial policy or modernisation policy. No need for the AK-103, no need for the Ka-226, no need for these frigates etc etc etc

 

[GuardianRED]

View attachment 3558

Q: Where is the Torpedo Launch tubes for Both the P17 and P17A?

 

[randomradio]

This is a total red herring, they are also considerably more capable- you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. Besides, an order for 3-4 more 17As would've had signfiicant cost savings automatically. This is just a guess but I would say any additional 17As ordered could easily be 30-40% cheaper simply becuase the infra at both MDL and GRSE is already there to build such monsters now and capital investment on capacity is always the most expensive part of these deals.

It's not as simple as you think.

We can buy additional P-17As, but we won't get them in the same time frame as the Talwar class. For example, the P-17As are expected from 2022 through 2025, whereas the first 2 Talwars will come in by 2022-23, and the next 2 in 2023 and 2024. While the next 2 are suspect, but you can also be guaranteed that MDL and GRSE won't deliver all the P-17As by 2025 either. No PSU has ever realistically kept to schedule.

Now if we order 4 more P-17As, the dates for delivery will be 2026 and 2027, considering both the shipyards will keep to the dates. Who's gonna wait that long?

An added advantage is, with the Talwar class, we will have a third shipyard capable of building frigates by 2023, alongside GRSE.

So with the Talwars, the IN is killing many birds with one stone. They are getting cheap frigates, the delivery is very quick, and another capable shipyard is being groomed at the same time.

Rest assured, we will get 2 Talwars long before we get the first P-17A.

No need for the AK-103, no need for the Ka-226, no need for these frigates etc etc etc

All three are extremely necessary. These are not simply political deals that benefit Russia, they directly benefit our own armed forces.

 

[GuardianRED]

This is a total red herring, they are also considerably more capable- you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. Besides, an order for 3-4 more 17As would've had signfiicant cost savings automatically. This is just a guess but I would say any additional 17As ordered could easily be 30-40% cheaper simply becuase the infra at both MDL and GRSE is already there to build such monsters now and capital investment on capacity is always the most expensive part of these deals.


There will be plenty of destroyer work

The groundwork for all of this exists, sadly this seems like another freebie to the Russians for god knows what reason. The military case for these ships is SO weak and the industrial case is almost non-existent.

It would be one thing if these ships were somehow better than what the IN was getting from Indian yards but they simply aren't, the 17As are many notchs above (in terms ot firepower, capability and sensors) and it's not even like they will come any sooner (2022 for first 17A also). These "new" vessels are very modest updates on what the IN inducted over a decade ago now and by the time they enter service will be about 15 years old already (in design terms).


India can demand the very best from Israel, France and (to an extent) the US but when it comes to Russia the same story plays out- needless deals that neither fit into an industrial policy or modernisation policy. No need for the AK-103, no need for the Ka-226, no need for these frigates etc etc etc

Have to agree with @randomradio - as mention earlier - hopefully, the sanctioned strength for Frigates will be reached quicker with the addition of these 4 hulls.

Plus

With no new updates on the LUH - the case for the Ka226 is getting better every day! (on the Ak103 - not sure)

 

[R!cK]

Q: Where is the Torpedo Launch tubes for Both the P17 and P17A?

The torpedo launchers are expected to follow Karmota layout which differs from other IN ships.

Good day!

 

[Abingdonboy]

An added advantage is, with the Talwar class, we will have a third shipyard capable of building frigates by 2023, alongside GRSE.

Why not just give an Indian yard (GSL) and Indian design (17A) to make if that is your ambition? Have them start now so there can be 3 yards churning out 17As come 2023/4.

We can buy additional P-17As, but we won't get them in the same time frame as the Talwar class. For example, the P-17As are expected from 2022 through 2025, whereas the first 2 Talwars will come in by 2022-23, and the next 2 in 2023 and 2024. While the next 2 are suspect, but you can also be guaranteed that MDL and GRSE won't deliver all the P-17As by 2025 either. No PSU has ever realistically kept to schedule.

Let's assume they stick to schedule (which both MDL and GRSE have said they will recently).

2022- first 17A (MDL), first 11356 (Yanter)
2023- second 17A (MDL), third 17A (GRSE), second 11356 (Yanter), third 11356 (GSL)
2024- fourth 17A (MDL), fifth 17A (GRSE), fourth 11356 (GSL)
2025- sixth 17A (MDL), seventh 17A (GRSE)

I would say the 3&4th 11356 from GSL in 2023/4 is VERY suspect considering no contract is signed even today, asking them to make them from scratch in 4 years (assuming deal signed in 2019) is a big ask.


Where is the time saving really here? If you give GSL 17As to make now they can be delivered around the same time as the first 11356s from GSL are meant to be rolled out.

It's not like the navy won't be inducting any frigates in this time, there will be significant overlap between 11356 delivery and 17A.


And this still doesn't address my question about capabilties @randomradio . Inducting ships in 2022-4 that are largely the same as what the navy Inducted more than a decade ago. The capability gap between the 11356s and 17As will be stark, it will actually be a very sad sight to see the celebrations about 11356 being inducted just after or around the excitement of the first 17A being rolled out.

Rest assured, we will get 2 Talwars long before we get the first P-17A.

"Long before", even assuming the worst (delays from MDL and GRSE), it will be a matter of months only.

All three are extremely necessary. These are not simply political deals that benefit Russia, they directly benefit our own armed forces.

How? IA and IAF never asked for Ka-226.

With no new updates on the LUH - the case for the Ka226 is getting better every day! (on the Ak103 - not sure)

LUH is undergoing high and cold weather trails right now, IOC within the next 8 months, LSP in mid-2019. In fact the case for the more costly (to buy and operate) Ka-226 is going down every day, the deal would've made sense if in 2015 (when Modi govt announced it) it had been for 60-80 off the shelf helos with immediate delivery to meet emergency requirements. But here we are in 2018 and there is still no deal in sight, chances are high that the first LUH LSP will be handed over to the IAF/IA before the first Ka-226 (if it ever comes), Kamov/Russian helicopters has said they will deliever the off the shelf batch about a year/18 months after contract signature. IF (big if) contract is signed in early 2019 (very unlikely as there's no money towards the end of the FY and then election efforts will commence around mid-2019) the Ka-226 won't land in India before mid/late 2020.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Have to agree with @randomradio - as mention earlier - hopefully, the sanctioned strength for Frigates will be reached quicker with the addition of these 4 hulls.

But what are we arguing over here? At most 2-3 years. Is that worth it in the long term? The IN will have to live with the 11356s for 30+ years, if you are buying you need to get the best for the time. Already the 11356s feel outdated, this will be even moreso in 2022-4.

It will be very short sighted if the IN thinks the ability to add 4 more hulls of 11356 in the early/mid 2020s offsets it's capability defeicences.

IF there was customisation happening, IF these 11356 were going to have MFSTAR and LRSAM and HUMSA-NG then this would be a very different equation and this deal would be almost too good to turn down but the reality is they are a very very modest upgrade on the existing frigates. They aren't even coming with an integrated mast! Simply calling them "stealth frigates" doesn't mean much.

 

[Parthu]

Q: Where is the Torpedo Launch tubes for Both the P17 and P17A?

P17 does not carry any torpedoes. P17A is meant to, but its unclear what the launch mechanism will be like. Some old 3D animations of P17A had showcased non-moving tubes stored internally (unlike P15A tubes which are external) that pop-out torpedoes through the sides:

Similar to the setup on FREMM frigates:

But its unclear if this setup will indeed be seen all the way to fruition or if the design will change.

 

[randomradio]

Why not just give an Indian yard (GSL) and Indian design (17A) to make if that is your ambition? Have them start now so there can be 3 yards churning out 17As come 2023/4.

GSL has no experience building frigates. They have built nothing better than OPVs. The Russians will be holding their hands during the construction of the Talwars.

Let's assume they stick to schedule (which both MDL and GRSE have said they will recently).

They all claim that at the beginning of every project.

2022- first 17A (MDL), first 11356 (Yanter)
2023- second 17A (MDL), third 17A (GRSE), second 11356 (Yanter), third 11356 (GSL)
2024- fourth 17A (MDL), fifth 17A (GRSE), fourth 11356 (GSL)
2025- sixth 17A (MDL), seventh 17A (GRSE)

I would say the 3&4th 11356 from GSL in 2023/4 is VERY suspect considering no contract is signed even today, asking them to make them from scratch in 4 years (assuming deal signed in 2019) is a big ask.

All the dates are suspect. GSL's contract will be happening within 2 months though.

Where is the time saving really here? If you give GSL 17As to make now they can be delivered around the same time as the first 11356s from GSL are meant to be rolled out.

I'd say closer to 2030. DPSUs have never been as efficient as private companies. When it comes to a new project, you can always expect two to three times the time it takes for them to deliver anything.

I'm gonna assume GSL's 2 Talwars will come in only after 2025.

Out of all the shipyards involved, only MDL has the ability to stick to its schedule, and even that's a tall task. Just look up how long GRSE took to deliver the Kamorta class.

And this still doesn't address my question about capabilties @randomradio . Inducting ships in 2022-4 that are largely the same as what the navy Inducted more than a decade ago. The capability gap between the 11356s and 17As will be stark, it will actually be a very sad sight to see the celebrations about 11356 being inducted just after or around the excitement of the first 17A being rolled out.

That decade old difference is fine when it comes to shipbuilding. The Americans themselves are working with a 15 to 20 year difference between major configuration changes.

How? IA and IAF never asked for Ka-226.

Whatchu talking about? It was T1 in the main tender. It's like the Rafale, Ka-226T won the tender, the govt withdrew the tender and decided to ink a GTG instead.

The growth of the Indian Army's helicopter inventory - Saurav Jha’ Blog
Now the Ka-226T along with the Airbus Helicopter's AS 550 C3 Fennec had been downselected in the last tender having met the revised technical and operational parameters specified in it. So both the Ka-226T and AS 550 C3 in any case have qualified the IA's requirements for a RS helicopter that can be used for directing artillery fire, carry small body of troops/quick reaction teams for special missions, aerial photography, scouting roles in conjunction with AHs, airborne forward air controller (FAC) functions, casualty evacuation (CASEVAC), NBC monitoring, as a platform for ESM, ECM and ECCM etc and to provide dynamic response during aid to civil authorities.

Russia To Showcase Ka-226T Helos
The Ka-226T and Eurocopter AS550 C3 Fennec helicopter are currently the only contenders.

LUH is undergoing high and cold weather trails right now, IOC within the next 8 months, LSP in mid-2019. In fact the case for the more costly (to buy and operate) Ka-226 is going down every day, the deal would've made sense if in 2015 (when Modi govt announced it) it had been for 60-80 off the shelf helos with immediate delivery to meet emergency requirements. But here we are in 2018 and there is still no deal in sight, chances are high that the first LUH LSP will be handed over to the IAF/IA before the first Ka-226 (if it ever comes), Kamov/Russian helicopters has said they will deliever the off the shelf batch about a year/18 months after contract signature. IF (big if) contract is signed in early 2019 (very unlikely as there's no money towards the end of the FY and then election efforts will commence around mid-2019) the Ka-226 won't land in India before mid/late 2020.

The LUH and Ka-226T are not in competition with each other. It was always the plan to buy 2 types of light helicopters. The forces can't afford to ground the entire fleet in case of problems. Large portions of our infantry will get stranded without supplies on the mountains if that happened.

The total requirement was 384 and the contract was split between an import and LUH, 197 and 187 helicopters, for both the IA and IAF. It's the navy that doesn't want the Ka-226T in its current configuration. They have a separate tender called NUH.

 

[GuardianRED]

But what are we arguing over here? At most 2-3 years. Is that worth it in the long term? The IN will have to live with the 11356s for 30+ years, if you are buying you need to get the best for the time. Already the 11356s feel outdated, this will be even moreso in 2022-4.

It will be very short sighted if the IN thinks the ability to add 4 more hulls of 11356 in the early/mid 2020s offsets it's capability defeicences.

IF there was customisation happening, IF these 11356 were going to have MFSTAR and LRSAM and HUMSA-NG then this would be a very different equation and this deal would be almost too good to turn down but the reality is they are a very very modest upgrade on the existing frigates. They aren't even coming with an integrated mast! Simply calling them "stealth frigates" doesn't mean much.

Well we do know that 2 Hulls that are signed and confirmed are for existing unfinished ones at the Russian Shipyard and that the other 2 Hulls to be done at an Indian Shipyard will be signed later - Hopefully, these will have some design changes more suited (Hopefully)