Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Gautam]

The reason why units like RR and others are resorting to AKs for a large variety of use-cases is partly due to the total lack of a reasonably light weapon capable of adequate stopping power.

Does the 5.56x45 mm have enough stopping power against say a light weight semi-decent body armour ? I thought the reason why the USSOCOM acquired FN Herstal SCAR-H 7.62x51 mm is because their 5.56 mm didn't have enough range or stopping power to fight against the 7.62x39 mm used by Taliban. Now I understand that the Kashmir valley tangos aren't likely to have any armour with them but what about the Pak SSG or BAT units ? Pak still employs the old H&K G3 which is likely to out-range any 5.56 carbine we employ.
So we might have to use a 5.56 mm for CI/CT and 7.62 mm for CFV. Quite the logistical pain wouldn't you agree. Why not just go with a SCAR-H and be done with it ?

Previously, MKU used to have JVs with both Caracal LLC as well as Thales Australia in the carbine competition.

This is a rather weird position to be in for MKU. One of your JV partner has been declared L1 the other is going to court to get the deal cancelled. Who do you support ? I suppose they leaned on the Caracal's side and thus caused a fall out with Thales Australia.

SIG Sauer (United States) -- SIG516 Patrol -- No local partner decided yet

Curious thing about the Sig is that they have sold tons of guns in India with out any local production. I don't remember the last time a foreign firearms company had this much success in India with out domestic manufacture. What's their secret sauce ?

 

[Parthu]

Does the 5.56x45 mm have enough stopping power against say a light weight semi-decent body armour ?

Depends on the rating of the armor. If it's soft armor (kevlar vests), any rifle-calibre round will easily penetrate. If it's a Level III or above HAP panel, then no. But then again, neither can 7.62x39 (AK round).

Its pretty rare to see even BAT units with HAPs or even SAPs. Typically it's only an FLC load carrier with no armor. They prefer to stay light and not make themselves look conspicuous among the other terrorists.

That said, for units that patrol LoC the weapon to be issued will most likely be the SIG 716. The carbine is for CI/CT units - totally different users.

I thought the reason why the USSOCOM acquired FN Herstal SCAR-H 7.62x51 mm is because their 5.56 mm didn't have enough range or stopping power to fight against the 7.62x39 mm used by Taliban.

The SCAR-H is only used in limited quantities and in use cases where engagement ranges can be too long for the 5.56 to have enough effect. The standard-issue weapon for JSOC Tier-1 operators remains the 5.56 HK416.

So we might have to use a 5.56 mm for CI/CT and 7.62 mm for CFV. Quite the logistical pain wouldn't you agree. Why not just go with a SCAR-H and be done with it ?

You're asking me why the Armed Forces procurement makes no sense? Get in queue.

Curious thing about the Sig is that they have sold tons of guns in India with out any local production. I don't remember the last time a foreign firearms company had this much success in India with out domestic manufacture.

The fast-track deal did not have any requirement for local manufacture.

What's their secret sauce ?

Simple. Their bid was the lowest. Nothing else.

 

[Gautam]

Excellent pic this. Credit on pic. Force One commando with a Barrett M98B bolt action sniper rifle

What scope is that @Parthu ? Also there seems to be a ballistic calculator on the scope. Good stuff.

Kind of a weird situation where the police have better snipers than the army

 

[Parthu]

Excellent pic this. Credit on pic. Force One commando with a Barrett M98B bolt action sniper rifle
View attachment 5864
What scope is that @Parthu ? Also there seems to be a ballistic calculator on the scope. Good stuff.

Kind of a weird situation where the police have better snipers than the army

Appears to be the Leupold Mark 4 scope (4.5-14x50mm) with the Barrett Optical Ranging System (BORS) computer module.

 

[Gautam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1116722826780655616

 

[Parthu]

4K pic...

Close-up + filter...

 

[Gautam]

NSG Commandos at King Abdullah II Special Operations Training Center during 11th Annual Warrior Competition. Last time we participated we didn't do so well. Here is hoping second time is the charm. Pic credit : Unknowncommando.

Also the NSG seem to be using Colt M4A1 with a Aimpoint red dot sight. Do the NSG use that @Parthu ? or was it given to them by the hosts ?

 

[Parthu]

NSG Commandos at King Abdullah II Special Operations Training Center during 11th Annual Warrior Competition. Last time we participated we didn't do so well. Here is hoping second time is the charm. Pic credit : Unknowncommando.
View attachment 6067
Also the NSG seem to be using Colt M4A1 with a Aimpoint red dot sight. Do the NSG use that @Parthu ? or was it given to them by the hosts ?

Likely the weapons are loaned from the local armory.

Another pic:

 

[Austerlitz]

Russian army ordered 150,000 ak12 and ak15.How much better is the ak15 from the ak203?Any small arms experts?

 

[Parthu]

The Andhra Pradesh/Telangana OCTOPUS commandos appear to have gotten a new 9mm AR-15 in their arsenal:

Also seen are the old Colt 9mm carbines (with carry handles) which are pretty much signature weapons of the OCTOPUS at this point (only force in India to use them, AFAIK), and of course, the Franchi SPAS-15 shotgun.

Not able to ID the particular model at this point, however upon closer inspection, it appears the new 9mm carbine comes in a completely "optics-ready" configuration, with a full-length 12'o clock P-rail with folding sights in place of the fixed front sight post seen on the older 9mm...and the handguard appears to be an M-LOK model, with a small Picatinny adapter on the side toward the muzzle. Very interesting.

OCTOPUS' old 9mm carbine, probably based on Colt R0991 with a removable carry-handle:

New one seems closer to something like this custom-built 9mm SBR, but with M-LOK instead of Keymod :

Russian army ordered 150,000 ak12 and ak15.How much better is the ak15 from the ak203?Any small arms experts?

Already detailed in length by @Maximus in previous posts on this thread. Go back a few pages.

 

[Gautam]

As I have posted on page 20 post no #394 on this thread SS-LMT has put their 0.338 Lapua Magnum bolt action sniper rifle under testing of IA for a while now. Please read that post before to understand the context. Here is a higher resolution pic of the rifle.

So yeah it will come with a suppressor. Probably the reason why you don't see a muzzle break on the rifle.

Spec. sheet from the manufacturer :

 

[Parthu]

As I have posted on page 20 post no #394 on this thread SS-LMT has put their 0.338 Lapua Magnum bolt action sniper rifle under testing of IA for a while now. Please read that post before to understand the context. Here is a higher resolution pic of the rifle.
View attachment 6382
So yeah it will come with a suppressor. Probably the reason why you don't see a muzzle break on the rifle.
View attachment 6383
Spec. sheet from the manufacturer :
View attachment 6384

If the barrel is threaded, you can put whatever you want on it - brake, suppressor, or just leave it open.

It can attach a suppressor, so yes it is threaded. Meaning it can attach a brake as well.

 

[Gautam]

If the barrel is threaded, you can put whatever you want on it - brake, suppressor, or just leave it open.

It can attach a suppressor, so yes it is threaded. Meaning it can attach a brake as well.

Wasn't there some QD suppressors that were to be attached with a three lug mechanism with a back pressure plate, no threads needed. I think the B&T MP9 that the Army uses has that type of suppressor. Are those for sub-machine guns only or are they available for more powerful rounds ?

Although a QD suppressor isn't needed for snipers at all. If anything they are undesirable given the inevitable shift in impact point after putting on/taking off the suppressor.

 

[Gautam]

Unfortunate but not unexpected.

Why Army will have to wait more for new carbines

A technical committee of the ministry of defence has raised questions over pricing.

07-05-2019 -

SANDEEP UNNITHAN @sandeepunnithan

The Indian Army’s fast-track procurement process for new carbines is caught in a jam.

In September 2018, Caracal International LLC finished as ‘L-1’ or the lowest bidder in a contract estimated to cost over Rs 700 crore for 93,895 of the compact close-combat weapons.

The UAE government-owned firm beat out a competing weapon from Thales Australia in the contract.

Price negotiations between the MoD and Abu Dhabi-based Caracal were concluded soon after the price bids were opened in 2018.

But the contract is yet to be signed.

In contrast, the deal to buy assault rifles, bids for which were also opened last September, has galloped ahead.
In February this year, the ministry of defence (MoD) signed a Rs 700 crore contract with US-based rifle maker SiG Sauer to buy 72,400 assault rifles. All the SiG 716 G2 rifles are to be delivered within a year of contract signing.

Caracal was one of five vendors on whom the MoD placed requests for proposals to supply modern carbines; part of the Army’s wish list floated in 2017 for new weapons to replace its vintage small arms arsenal.

Carbines are useful to soldiers for fighting close-combat situations in urban counter-insurgency areas.

Another venture — to locally produce 7,50,000 AK-203 rifles — took off recently when Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated an Indo-Russian joint venture at the Ordnance Factory, Korwa in Amethi on March 3.

There are believed to be several reasons behind the delay in the carbine deal.

The first is an MoD-appointed technical oversight committee which has questioned how the weapons chambered for the smaller 5.56x45 mm bullet calibre could be costlier than the SiG Sauer rifle which fires the larger 7.62x51 mm calibre round.
Each SiG rifle is believed to cost only $990 while the Caracal 816 costs $1150 a piece.
In 2018, rival firms, South Korea’s S&T Motiv and Thales Australia complained to the MoD that Caracal was not technically qualified for the deal.

These grievances are believed to have been settled before the MoD opened price bids.

The MoD has now put the deal on pause. The Army, happy to have at least two small arms deals going after a decade of procurement failures, is not exactly complaining.

For New Delhi, buying a weapon from Russia, the US and now, new best friend, the UAE, could close the loop on its diplomatic priorities.

How the MoD will respond to the Caracal jam is now perhaps a question that will be answered only after the elections.

(Courtesy of Mail Today)

Why Army will have to wait more for new carbines

 

[Parthu]

Wasn't there some QD suppressors that were to be attached with a three lug mechanism with a back pressure plate, no threads needed. I think the B&T MP9 that the Army uses has that type of suppressor. Are those for sub-machine guns only or are they available for more powerful rounds ?

QA/QD suppressors (and other muzzle devices) exist for all types of guns.

Although a QD suppressor isn't needed for snipers at all. If anything they are undesirable given the inevitable shift in impact point after putting on/taking off the suppressor.

That's right.

Unfortunate but not unexpected.

Why Army will have to wait more for new carbines

A technical committee of the ministry of defence has raised questions over pricing.

07-05-2019 -

SANDEEP UNNITHAN @sandeepunnithan

The Indian Army’s fast-track procurement process for new carbines is caught in a jam.

In September 2018, Caracal International LLC finished as ‘L-1’ or the lowest bidder in a contract estimated to cost over Rs 700 crore for 93,895 of the compact close-combat weapons.

The UAE government-owned firm beat out a competing weapon from Thales Australia in the contract.

Price negotiations between the MoD and Abu Dhabi-based Caracal were concluded soon after the price bids were opened in 2018.

But the contract is yet to be signed.

In contrast, the deal to buy assault rifles, bids for which were also opened last September, has galloped ahead.
In February this year, the ministry of defence (MoD) signed a Rs 700 crore contract with US-based rifle maker SiG Sauer to buy 72,400 assault rifles. All the SiG 716 G2 rifles are to be delivered within a year of contract signing.

Caracal was one of five vendors on whom the MoD placed requests for proposals to supply modern carbines; part of the Army’s wish list floated in 2017 for new weapons to replace its vintage small arms arsenal.

Carbines are useful to soldiers for fighting close-combat situations in urban counter-insurgency areas.

Another venture — to locally produce 7,50,000 AK-203 rifles — took off recently when Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated an Indo-Russian joint venture at the Ordnance Factory, Korwa in Amethi on March 3.

There are believed to be several reasons behind the delay in the carbine deal.

The first is an MoD-appointed technical oversight committee which has questioned how the weapons chambered for the smaller 5.56x45 mm bullet calibre could be costlier than the SiG Sauer rifle which fires the larger 7.62x51 mm calibre round.
Each SiG rifle is believed to cost only $990 while the Caracal 816 costs $1150 a piece.
In 2018, rival firms, South Korea’s S&T Motiv and Thales Australia complained to the MoD that Caracal was not technically qualified for the deal.

These grievances are believed to have been settled before the MoD opened price bids.

The MoD has now put the deal on pause. The Army, happy to have at least two small arms deals going after a decade of procurement failures, is not exactly complaining.

For New Delhi, buying a weapon from Russia, the US and now, new best friend, the UAE, could close the loop on its diplomatic priorities.

How the MoD will respond to the Caracal jam is now perhaps a question that will be answered only after the elections.

(Courtesy of Mail Today)

Why Army will have to wait more for new carbines

It appears they do not understand how a bidding process works. And they do not seem to understand that the 7.62 rifle deal and the 5.56 carbine deal are two entirely separate deals and have no obligation to compete or compare their prices with each other.

In the US civilian retail market, the Caracal carbine in question is priced at approximately $1500 depending on vendor. The SIG 716 on the other hand retails for a whopping $2300 approx. Those are the retail prices which take into account cost of manufacturing and everything. The SIG rifle is simply a far more expensive piece of equipment, for largely the same type of reasons of why the Merc S-class costs more than the A-class.

The reason why the SIG rifle could be offered at a much lower price is simply because SIG Sauer felt that they were more comfortable with bidding for a lower price, either because they were desperate to grab the deal or because they felt that there was a big enough market in India, and that this deal will open the doors for them to this market, the potential sales in which they may have believed would be more than enough to recuperate for their low initial bid. Their reasons are their own.

Caracal might comparatively not have been comfortable with a gamble of such magnitude (because we're getting the SIG rifle for less than half it's retail price, and the competition for it was also much stiffer), and decided to just bid the lowest price they thought they were comfortable with. That is no crime - their bid is still the lowest among the competition in the deal, and we were still getting it for lesser than retail price, meaning the benefits of a bulk order were still ours for the taking.

I frankly don't see anything wrong here at all.

The real question that an oversight committee should have sought to examine & address here should be:

How the hell was the OFB-made R2 rifle (7.62x51mm) more expensive than the "phoren" fancy 716 rifle from an internationally renowned name-brand like SIG Sauer, which was manufactured in the US at New Hampshire where cost of production & labour are comparatively much higher than at Rifle Factory Ishapore?

FYI, the OFB's price for the R2 rifle was, converted to USD, $1121. Much higher than the $990 SIG rifle.

But of course, this question will not be asked. Because that's the way it's always been...the OFB is just so used to having their way with the Army orders for small arms and quoting whatever prices they want (no competition, no bidding), that with all these companies coming in & threatening to take away the OFB's cake from them, they just can't seem to handle it being made aware of their new, demoted position in, what so far used to be, a captive market.

 

[Gautam]

The reason why the SIG rifle could be offered at a much lower price is simply because SIG Sauer felt that they were more comfortable with bidding for a lower price, either because they were desperate to grab the deal or because they felt that there was a big enough market in India, and that this deal will open the doors for them to this market, the potential sales in which they may have believed would be more than enough to recuperate for their low initial bid. Their reasons are their own.

Caracal might comparatively not have been comfortable with a gamble of such magnitude (because we're getting the SIG rifle for less than half it's retail price, and the competition for it was also much stiffer), and decided to just bid the lowest price they thought they were comfortable with. That is no crime - their bid is still the lowest among the competition in the deal, and we were still getting it for lesser than retail price, meaning the benefits of a bulk order were still ours for the taking.

This is absolutely correct. You don't need to an expert of any kind to see this. Sadly, common sense isn't as common as popularly believed.

How the hell was the OFB-made R2 rifle (7.62x51mm) more expensive than the "phoren" fancy 716 rifle from an internationally renowned name-brand like SIG Sauer, which was manufactured in the US at New Hampshire where cost of production & labour are comparatively much higher than at Rifle Factory Ishapore?

Its not just the cost though the R2 is significantly inferior in design and yet more expensive. I'd have supported a more expensive domestic product had it been as good as the foreign.

But of course, this question will not be asked. Because that's the way it's always been...the OFB is just so used to having their way with the Army orders for small arms and quoting whatever prices they want (no competition, no bidding), that with all these companies coming in & threatening to take away the OFB's cake from them, they just can't seem to handle it being made aware of their new, demoted position in, what so far used to be, a captive market.

Preach. This is why I never liked the left inspired union politics. Focus firmly remains on number of workers/work rather than quality of workers/work.

 

[GuardianRED]

This is absolutely correct. You don't need to an expert of any kind to see this. Sadly, common sense isn't as common as popularly believed.



Its not just the cost though the R2 is significantly inferior in design and yet more expensive. I'd have supported a more expensive domestic product had it been as good as the foreign.



Preach. This is why I never liked the left inspired union politics. Focus firmly remains on number of workers/work rather than quality of workers/work.

Playing the devils advocate - it is possible that this very technical committee is seeking the same explanation as @Parthu has mentioned

Still laughable they called themselves a technical committee if they dont know the difference - must be just pencil pushers and number munchers and have not clue which side a round comes out

 

[Gautam]

Credit on pic. H&K PSG-1 Sniper Rifle. I thought H&K stopped selling guns in India, yet every now and then there are more H&K guns to be seen. Is that embargo still in place ? Were these ordered earlier ? How do we maintain our fairly large arsenal of MP5s and MP5 SSDs without H&K spares ? Third party companies like B&T ? @Parthu

 

[Parthu]

Credit on pic. H&K PSG-1 Sniper Rifle. I thought H&K stopped selling guns in India, yet every now and then there are more H&K guns to be seen. Is that embargo still in place ? Were these ordered earlier ? How do we maintain our fairly large arsenal of MP5s and MP5 SSDs without H&K spares ? Third party companies like B&T ? @Parthu
View attachment 6607

There is a theory that export of only the newer models (like HK416, MP7 etc.) is banned, but legacy weapons are still sold. However, I haven't been able to verify this and logically it doesn't make much sense to me. But that is the only theory so far.

 

[Gautam]

There is a theory that export of only the newer models (like HK416, MP7 etc.) is banned, but legacy weapons are still sold. However, I haven't been able to verify this and logically it doesn't make much sense to me. But that is the only theory so far.

Weird kind of ban this is. In other words they shot themselves out of the market. Wasn't the B&T MP9 that we recently picked up meant to replace the MP5 ?