Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Rajput Lion]

The majority of the fighting is going to be done by Cheeni j-10's,j-11's and su-35's while the j-20"s provide aircover or flank the flankers. The ground strike role will be done by j-16's,jh-7's and their tu-16 copies.

They have only 24 Su-35S. And even with 60% availability only 15 planes would be ready for action at any time. Hardly a concern for us. J-10C can also be tackled by our Flankers and Rafale.

The real problem for us is J-20 and J-16 combo. If J-20 uses its stealth and comes close then it would guide even PL-21s fired by the far away J-16 to take down our AWACS. Losing AWACS is a dreadful situation for us because we have got them in such low numbers.

Protecting AWACS should be our number one priority.

 

[Lolwa]

J-10C can also be tackled by our Flankers and Rafale.

The real problem for us is J-20 and J-16 combo.

J-10c,j-11D/BSH(aesa upgraded ones), j-16 and j-20. All will be huge problems especially for our ageing fleet of flankers and mig 29upg. J-10's have a very similar flight regimes to typhoons so will do very well in high altitude bvr. They smashed thai gripens pretty easily assuming the reports are true.

 

[Rajput Lion]

J-10c,j-11D/BSH(aesa upgraded ones), j-16 and j-20. All will be huge problems especially for our ageing fleet of flankers and mig 29upg.

Su-30MKI upgrade has commenced with Dhruti induction. Upgraded Su-30MKI will swat every single Chinese plane except J-20. But post upgrade, it will be able to fight J-20 as well.

J-10's have a very similar flight regimes to typhoons so will do very well in high altitude bvr. They smashed thai gripens pretty easily assuming the reports are true.

J-10 is a single engine plane that produces around 130kn/140kn max thrust. Typhoon is a twin-engined plane with 180 kn power during peace time. During war, its power could be increased to 200kn. There is absolutely no way, J-10's high altitude performance is going to be like Typhoon. Even our Rafale, Su-30 and Mig-29s will have better kinematics at altitude than J-10C.

Thai Gripen are really old. They have literally no chance against AESA equipped J-10s.

 

[Lolwa]

Upgraded Su-30MKI will swat every single Chinese plane except J-20. But post upgrade, it will be able to fight J-20 as well.

Not until Astra mk2 comes in service and the bars is removed. Su-30's are Essentially cannon fodder or decoys. The 27th Feb clash with the Pakistanis also shows how big rcs of the mki is a huge problem. Especially against Chinese j-10's. The j-10's have been defeating Chinese flankers in their own internal exercises.
Check this DCS sim out. The j-11's pretty much went to head to head with our flankers. Although the mki's were extremely nerfed in this you can see things might not go as well as we think.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Not until Astra mk2 comes in service and the bars is removed.

Both are part of upgrade.

Su-30's are Essentially cannon fodder or decoys. The 27th Feb clash with the Pakistanis also shows how big rcs of the mki is a huge problem.

HVT sir has already busted this theory. Only LO planes that carry their weapons inside their airframe have advantages over current MKI. Any plane when it hangs its weapons outside is literally a cannon-fodder to MKI.

27th Feb has been discussed to death. What those two Flankers did is nothing short of miracle. Had they got Derby-ER or Astra 2 that day. Entire Pak F-16 attacking fleet could have been slayed by them.

Especially against Chinese j-10's. The j-10's have been defeating Chinese flankers in their own internal exercises.

I posted interview of a Pakistani pilot sometimes ago. He clearly said that J-10 is no match to J-16. J-16 have even defeated J-20s in some simulated battles. That's why the Chinese rate J-16 so highly.

Check this DCS sim out. The j-11's pretty much went to head to head with our flankers. Although the mki's were extremely nerfed in this you can see things might not go as well as we think.

Already seen. IAF won't fight like that. Don't worry, our training and tactics are way more superior to the Chinese. We will defeat them.

 

[Lolwa]

posted interview of a Pakistani pilot sometimes ago. He clearly said that J-10 is no match to J-16. J-16 have even defeated J-20s in some simulated battles. That's why the Chinese rate J-16 so highly.

Pakistanis are peak bullshitters. Although I was talking about the j-11. J-16's are essentially in the same class as the sh blk3 and f-15EX.

 

[randomradio]

MKI will be data-linked with our S-400, BMD, MRSAM and entire IACCS. We will spot J-20 from far. Recently Chinese found that even their mighty J-20 can't penetrate modern air defence. They got tracked and locked as per "official" Chinese report:

PLA Army hones air defense against stealth fighter jets using Air Force's J-20 as practice partner - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

@_Anonymous_ kindly read the above link.

I wouldn't rely on information of the sort. We know nothing about the exercise.

Tracking a stealth jet is easy if it doesn't change directions, like what's necessary in a strike mission.

After upgrade it should, at least in a defensive manner linked with our ground/air/space based assets.

Like I said, it doesn't matter what avionics it has or how well linked it is to anything, the MKI can be seen from well beyond BVR ranges, it's meaningless. And the J-20 is already linked to more and even better surveillance assets than we have.

True. But radar can be spoofed, deceived and outright jammed too. I still don't buy that MKI could be seen over 400kms by J-20. Just doesn't sound plausible to me.

I should correct that to 700Km then. Generally radars only see up to 450-500Km because that's the instrumented range, remove that and the MKI can be visible from horizon. A modern AWACS can see the MKI from 1000Km away. If the MKI uses EW, AWACS can lock on to the source of the EA from 1000Km away as well. If you don't want to be detected by radar, you MUST have stealth.

Look, if you don't have a stealth jet, it doesn't matter even if you have 10,000 upgraded MKIs, all you are going to give the Chinese is more ace pilots.

There is no two ways about it, it's been practically decided ever since the F-22 took to the air and generated a 104:0 kill ratio. It's never happened in history. Even Manfred von Richthofen has an 80:1 kill ratio, the highest in the world, still less than what a rookie pilot can get out of the F-22 against an MKI class jet.

The only reason older jets get kills on the F-22 is because the jet is severely restricted in doing some things for the sake of creating training value for the pilots. 'Cause if all they do is fly and press a button to make a kill, there's nothing for them to learn from that. So they use their jet to simulate other jets and that's when they get shot down.

This goes back to that J-20 exercise. There's no way to tell what happened. With stealth jets, radars can't keep track, when they detect stealth in a different place, they count it as a different jet, not the same one that's changed directions. It's the same thing with speed. And the F-22 combines both. And NGAD and PAK DP could take the combo to the next level.

 

[randomradio]

you don't need to have a perfectly identified signal in order to jam it or attack it for that matter.

You do. With current systems and automation.

very funny! so SPECTRA and fully automated active cancelation you tell us about so often would fail to respond to the same unknown signals without human intervention? What a massive paradox

ACT is not jamming. There is no need to sample a part of the signal, at least based on what I've been told. Perhaps a self-tuned Kalman filter. If there's no sampling, then there's no need for a threat library for ACT. Regular jamming requires sampling. Then the sampled signal is compared with signals in the library and then the whole signal is jammed.

F-35 Threat Library Still Way Too Slow; Light Pilots Cleared to Fly - Breaking Defense

PENTAGON: The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter possesses a remarkable array of sensors and processors to let it find the enemy and help the pilot kill or evade him. But the crucial threat library — known as Mission Data Files — just isn’t being developed and updated quickly enough, Brig. Gen. Scott...

breakingdefense.com

Why do those files matter? To make it as clear as possible, if the F-35 does not possess current threat data for everything from electronic warfare to radar to kinetic threats such as missiles, then it simply “might not know what it is looking at,” Pleus told me. That would hobble one of the fighter’s great advantages, its capacity to synthesize vast amounts of information for the pilot.

Read this article in full:

Cognitive Electronic Warfare: Radio Frequency Spectrum Meets Machine Learning

A look at the technologies that will power the aircraft of tomorrow.

interactive.aviationtoday.com

“Military forces can no longer rely solely on predefined threat databases to detect, identify, locate and react in a timely manner because today’s technology enables threats to change their waveforms through software without requiring any hardware retrofit,” he said.

Another one in full:

This Is The Most Important Technology On the F-35

Cognitive EW, currently in its infancy, may one day help justify the Joint Strike Fighter’s enormous cost.

www.defenseone.com

Conventional radar systems generally use fixed waveforms, making them easy to spot, learn about, and develop tactics against. But newer digitally programmable radars can generate never-before-seen waveforms, making them harder to defeat.

“In the past, what would happen is you’d send out your EA-18,” the military’s top-of-the-line EW aircraft, Deputy Defense Secretary Bob Work said last month in an event at the Center for New American Security. “It would find a new waveform. There was no way for us to do anything about it. The pilot would come back, they would talk about it, they’d replicate it, they’d emulate it. It would go into the ‘ gonculator ,’ goncu-goncu-goncu-gonculatoring, and then you would have something, and then maybe some time down the road, you would have a response.”

Jammers, Not Terminators: DARPA & The Future Of Robotics - Breaking Defense

WASHINGTON: Robophobes, relax. The robot revolution is not imminent. Machine brains have a lot to learn about the messy physical world, said DARPA director Arati Prabhakar. Instead, DARPA sees some of the most promising applications for artificial intelligence in the intangible realm of radio...

breakingdefense.com

We’ve written before on DARPA’s initiatives in “cognitive electronic warfare.” The idea there is that each combat aircraft carries enough computer power to isolate an unfamiliar radio-frequency transmission — say, the seeker radar from an incoming missile, or the radar-blinding beam from an enemy jammer — and devise a counter-signal to neutralize it “in real time,” as Prabhakar puts it.

Currently, she noted, “it can be weeks to months to literally years” before a countermeasure is developed and installed across the air fleet. Many aircraft don’t have the equipment to identify a new enemy signal, and those that can must still pass the data to human analysts on the ground to figure out a counter, then program that into every aircraft.

Something for @Rajput Lion as well.

Just so you know, the French surmounted this problem over 2 decades ago, which is why they are numero uno in this field. Which is why the significantly greater importance towards SPECTRA by air forces all over the world. Today's M2000 has similar capabilities.

 

[randomradio]

It is impossible to do 100% active cancellation until you've transmitters embedded across the aircraft's skin. Rafale has only 3 transmitters, two in the canard root and one in the tail. Though the coverage zone for each transmitter is 120°. So all three combined give 360° FOV to SPECTRA.

Rather than cancelling entire signals, SPECTRA is tuned to cancel the spike zones, thus reducing Rafale's overall RCS. I am a Rafale fan, but I fail to see how it will work againsts GaN AESA radars or future's Quantum or Photonics Radar!!

You just need emitters at hotspots. The Rafale's only got 3 hotspots, so all they have to do is perform AC at those hotposts. That's just inlets/wingroots and tail/engine.

The type of hardware doesn't matter, in the end it's just photons. No matter what hardware emits, the photons have to not reach the receiver. It's kinda like how the moon can block the sun during an eclipse. No matter how powerful the sun is, it cannot negate basic physics. So if the Rafale is to defeat a GaN radar, then it much carry a GaN antenna for cancellation too. The same with photonics. The only reason it requires antenna upgrades is because it needs to be able to match the signal characteristics. Like a GaAs antenna that works in the 1 to 100GHz frequency range cannot match the bandwith of a GaN radar that works in the 8-12GHz range.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I wouldn't rely on information of the sort. We know nothing about the exercise.

Tracking a stealth jet is easy if it doesn't change directions, like what's necessary in a strike mission.



Like I said, it doesn't matter what avionics it has or how well linked it is to anything, the MKI can be seen from well beyond BVR ranges, it's meaningless. And the J-20 is already linked to more and even better surveillance assets than we have.



I should correct that to 700Km then. Generally radars only see up to 450-500Km because that's the instrumented range, remove that and the MKI can be visible from horizon. A modern AWACS can see the MKI from 1000Km away. If the MKI uses EW, AWACS can lock on to the source of the EA from 1000Km away as well. If you don't want to be detected by radar, you MUST have stealth.

Look, if you don't have a stealth jet, it doesn't matter even if you have 10,000 upgraded MKIs, all you are going to give the Chinese is more ace pilots.

There is no two ways about it, it's been practically decided ever since the F-22 took to the air and generated a 104:0 kill ratio. It's never happened in history. Even Manfred von Richthofen has an 80:1 kill ratio, the highest in the world, still less than what a rookie pilot can get out of the F-22 against an MKI class jet.

The only reason older jets get kills on the F-22 is because the jet is severely restricted in doing some things for the sake of creating training value for the pilots. 'Cause if all they do is fly and press a button to make a kill, there's nothing for them to learn from that. So they use their jet to simulate other jets and that's when they get shot down.

This goes back to that J-20 exercise. There's no way to tell what happened. With stealth jets, radars can't keep track, when they detect stealth in a different place, they count it as a different jet, not the same one that's changed directions. It's the same thing with speed. And the F-22 combines both. And NGAD and PAK DP could take the combo to the next level.

I understand the importance of 'stealth'. But I don't believe that stealth is the be all and end all of air combat. I rate EW as the most important aspect and 'attribute' in modern air combat. And MKI is going to get completely transformed in that regard. Remember that MKI will be able to do EA with its GaN radar too.

As per you modern AWACS can track MKI from 1000 kms even when it's employing its EW. Well, if MKI is using DRFM/deceptive jamming then yes. But that is to deny tracking and not detection.

But with GaN EW suite, MKI will deny 'detection' when one MKI uses powerful noise jamming to hide 5-6 other MKIs in the formation.


Modern EW denies detection and tracking. From Boeing to SAAB all agree with this. You just can't call it sales pitch. As per Boeing F-15EX's EPAWSS allows it to come much closer to hostile emitters. SAAB believe the same about Gripen-E. MKI's EW suite is going to be more advance and powerful than EPAWSS and Gripen-E's EW suite. Even Dr. Das confirmed that MKI's EW pod is going to choke all hostile signals. I believe him.


Even USAF now believes that even something as stealthy as F-35 needs F-15's EPAWSS to help it break the door:

At its Northern Edge 21 exercises in Alaska, the US Air Force (USAF) tested the Boeing F-15 conducting an electronic attack to clear a path for a Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth fighter.

The test reveals how the USAF may use its legacy fleet of F-15E Strike Eagles, as well as its new F-15EX Eagle IIs, in coordination with its stealth aircraft for air strikes deep into enemy territory. The F-15 used the BAE Systems ALQ-250 Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability System (EPAWSS).
"

The demonstration, which took place on 14 May, was done to help evaluate a tactic improvement proposal that came out of the service’s annual Weapons and Tactics Conference, the USAF said on 17 May. The tactic is part of an effort to minimise “the F-35’s emissions to get closer to the adversary”, the service says. Electronic emissions would betray the stealth aircraft’s location.

EPAWSS is designed to monitor, jam and deceive threats, such as radar-guided missiles, in contested airspace. In March, BAE received a $58 million contract to start low-rate initial production of EPAWSS for the USAF.

“Though designed as a self-protection system, at Northern Edge, testers also explored using EPAWSS to support the [Weapons and Tactics Conference tactic improvement proposal] of fourth-to-fifth- and fifth-to-fourth-gen [electronic attack] effectiveness,” says the USAF.

Source: US Air Force tests using F-15’s EPAWSS to clear path for F-35

 

[Rajput Lion]

You just need emitters at hotspots. The Rafale's only got 3 hotspots, so all they have to do is perform AC at those hotposts. That's just inlets/wingroots and tail/engine.

Isn't that exactly what I'm saying. SPECTRA reduces Rafale's RCS by cancelling spikes. But with only 3 transmitters, you're not going to achieve 100% Active Radar Cancellation from every part of frame. What if Rafale is flying with drop tanks. Is that not a spike zone. But how the canarded or tail emitters cancel the spikes produced by those tanks? Very difficult to do 100% ACT even now, IMO.

The type of hardware doesn't matter, in the end it's just photons. No matter what hardware emits, the photons have to not reach the receiver. It's kinda like how the moon can block the sun during an eclipse. No matter how powerful the sun is, it cannot negate basic physics. So if the Rafale is to defeat a GaN radar, then it much carry a GaN antenna for cancellation too. The same with photonics. The only reason it requires antenna upgrades is because it needs to be able to match the signal characteristics. Like a GaAs antenna that works in the 1 to 100GHz frequency range cannot match the bandwith of a GaN radar that works in the 8-12GHz range.

Agreed. Classic case of 'cat and mouse".

 

[_Anonymous_]

If these articles linked by RST are to be believed , then wth exactly does F-35 bring to the table except stealth & superior detection abilities . Arguably that's a massive advantage as well for the time being but if the tech threshold for these systems isn't too high , it's only a matter of time before stealth itself as it exists today is detected & those detection systems of the F-35 replicated. @Rajput Lion

However I was under the impression it's EA systems were unmatched too. Evidently not . What exactly is the secret sauce the French have developed which makes SPECTRA so formidable then as far as EA goes ? @Picdelamirand-oil

 

[Rajput Lion]

If these articles linked by RST are to be believed , then wth exactly does F-35 bring to the table except stealth & superior detection abilities . Arguably that's a massive advantage as well for the time being but if the tech threshold for these systems isn't too high , it's only a matter of time before stealth itself as it exists today is detected & those detection systems of the F-35 replicated. @Rajput Lion

And the hilarious thing is the AI based "Cognitive Electronic Warfare" ability they are talking about to deal with unknown and hostile Signals is going to be present in our Upgraded MKI. Despite what Random believes, Upgraded MKI is going to be a real deal not only against 4, 4+, 4++ gen fighters, but even against LO planes like J-20.

However I was under the impression it's EA systems were unmatched too. Evidently not . What exactly is the secret sauce the French have developed which makes SPECTRA so formidable then as far as EA goes ? @Picdelamirand-oil

No far from it. Check the article I posted. When F-35 emits, its stealth is busted. So now USAF is trying to use F-15E/EX's EPAWSS to allow F-35 to close in. And this after being told than Growlers are not needed in day 1 attack and F-35's stealth is the be all end all of everything.

Picdel is right that the French and Swede approach of balancing low RCS with very good flight performance and cutting-edge EW is the way to go in modern air warfare. But still ACT can only reduce spikes at the moment rather than turning Rafale fully invisible, period.

PS: Did you read the "official" global times article where PLA successfully locked and destroyed PLAAF's J-20 when they were mimicking F-35s by flying out of formation, low and even using mountains? Our IADS is second to none. J-20 is going to die. I believe our AF and retired pilots like @vstol Jockey over anyone here. This article and the USAF article where they are talking about enhanced EW solutions even for LO fighters tell us something. Just connect the dots.

"Stealth isn't the be all end all of air combat". EW is. And when one combines LO with EW, then that combo is even more effective.

 

[Rajput Lion]

@_Anonymous_

Forget about AI enabled EW that is going online by end 2024 or early 2025 in MKI. Just look at our IRST! Heck even it's going to be AI enabled and good thing is that it has entered lab testing. By 2025 it shall be ready for induction too. J-20 is going to get spotted from/around 150kms away in frontal(subsonic) aspect and that too completely passive.

Look at this poster:

Now look closely towards the 2nd last line:

What do we see here

 

[Saaho]

Not until Astra mk2 comes in service and the bars is removed. Su-30's are Essentially cannon fodder or decoys. The 27th Feb clash with the Pakistanis also shows how big rcs of the mki is a huge problem. Especially against Chinese j-10's. The j-10's have been defeating Chinese flankers in their own internal exercises.
Check this DCS sim out. The j-11's pretty much went to head to head with our flankers. Although the mki's were extremely nerfed in this you can see things might not go as well as we think.

27th Feb showed one and only one thing. Babus are bane of India. Babus held back on budget to construct hard shelters for Su-30MKI in Kashmir. If there will be no Su-30 MKI in the air, how will you expect them to fight? It was MoD bungling basics and nothing else.

No budget to build infra to deploy existing platform in places where they are needed.

 

[Hydra]

Su-30MKI upgrade has commenced with Dhruti induction. Upgraded Su-30MKI will swat every single Chinese plane except J-20. But post upgrade, it will be able to fight J-20 as well.

Are you on meth?
"Upgraded MKI will swat every single chinese plane except j20" in the next line "But post upgrade, it will be able to fight J-20 as well"

 

[Rajput Lion]

Are you on meth?
"Upgraded MKI will swat every single chinese plane except j20" in the next line "But post upgrade, it will be able to fight J-20 as well"

Difference between "swat(read dominate)" and fight(in a defensive manner). Lol.

PS: We need Su-57M or AMCA MK2 to fully dominate J-20/J-35 and Chinese 6th gen J-XX fighter.

 

[randomradio]

I understand the importance of 'stealth'. But I don't believe that stealth is the be all and end all of air combat. I rate EW as the most important aspect and 'attribute' in modern air combat. And MKI is going to get completely transformed in that regard. Remember that MKI will be able to do EA with its GaN radar too.

EA is the least important. Where EA is used primarily in air combat is when defeating missiles. Meaning you are getting shot in the first place.

As per you modern AWACS can track MKI from 1000 kms even when it's employing its EW. Well, if MKI is using DRFM/deceptive jamming then yes. But that is to deny tracking and not detection.

But with GaN EW suite, MKI will deny 'detection' when one MKI uses powerful noise jamming to hide 5-6 other MKIs in the formation.

EW doesn't really hide aircraft. It just drowns out aircraft in clutter, you are still getting shot at first.

Modern EW denies detection and tracking. From Boeing to SAAB all agree with this. You just can't call it sales pitch. As per Boeing F-15EX's EPAWSS allows it to come much closer to hostile emitters. SAAB believe the same about Gripen-E. MKI's EW suite is going to be more advance and powerful than EPAWSS and Gripen-E's EW suite. Even Dr. Das confirmed that MKI's EW pod is going to choke all hostile signals. I believe him.


Even USAF now believes that even something as stealthy as F-35 needs F-15's EPAWSS to help it break the door:





Source: US Air Force tests using F-15’s EPAWSS to clear path for F-35

All that's in very general terms. The F-15EX can't defeat the F-22 no matter what it does. But it will fare better against the S-400, because that's really ultimately what the F-15EX will use its EW against.

It's extremely difficult to use EW in air combat.

 

[Soldier35]

Indian President Draupadi Murmu flew a Su-30MKI fighter jet. The aircraft was flown by the commander of the 106th squadron, Naveen Kumar. The flight lasted 30 minutes at an altitude of 2 kilometers, at a speed of about 800 kilometers per hour. The Su-30MKI fighter is a modification of the Su-30MK, about 100 of these aircraft were delivered to India. Now in India, the Su-30MKI fighter from Russian kits is manufactured under license by the Hindustan Aeronautics Corporation. Limited. The Indian Air Force currently has approximately 270 such aircraft, including those supplied by Russia. According to the President of India, it was an exciting experience for her. She expressed pride that the country's defense potential has grown.

 

[randomradio]

Isn't that exactly what I'm saying. SPECTRA reduces Rafale's RCS by cancelling spikes. But with only 3 transmitters, you're not going to achieve 100% Active Radar Cancellation from every part of frame. What if Rafale is flying with drop tanks. Is that not a spike zone. But how the canarded or tail emitters cancel the spikes produced by those tanks? Very difficult to do 100% ACT even now, IMO.

The emitters in the roots and someday the ones on the inlets will take care of that.

Plus the Rafale also uses low altitude for survivability, so the Rafale's aspect is different when theradar is looking down at it.