Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[advaidhya]

Why the hell will Indians write codes for Bars? Because Russians refused to do it or because Russians don't know how? The radar was already developed by Russia then sold to India! As well as to China! And Algeria! And Malaysia! Did Indians write codes for all those radars too?

We wrote codes because we wanted indigenisation. Russians refused to give codes but only hardware. Codes if given can be used to hack or use countermeasure.

The point is that stealth is a separate thing from flight stability. You can research flight systems all you want but you will not get stealth from that. To test and improve stealth shaping, you need prototypes like Have Blue. Without them, fighters like F-22 and F-35 would not have existed.

No one is a fool. To need a flying stealth plane, one must be capable of flying. Making odd looking entity does not serve any purpose. So, without flying ability, stealth is useless. So, let us not get into this sort of nonsense

Let me tell you something, we have been license building foreign aircraft (from raw material stage, mind you) for over 40 years. MiG-21, MiG-27, Ajeet, etc. we built hundreds of airframes in India. Still that does not help us in building Tejas. Why do people still don't realize that having HAL build foreign aircraft under license does NOT actually do anything for improving India's own aerospace design & build capabilities?

Simply put we have the know-how. We don't have the know-why. That is the reason why despite having "built" hundreds of heavy twin-engine MRCAs, we are still struggling to bring a small single engine bird to fruition. Actual OEMs like Sukhoi, Dassault or MiG would not have struggled with this. Because they actually have the know-why.

Tejas is far more advanced than these primitive planes like MiG21 or Ajeet. Tejas has surpassed all the ability of these planes. Know why is leapfrogged by studying existing design. India does not have modern avionics and codes which is the main impediment. The major part of all plane nowadays is software, not hardware. That is the difference between the ancient planes being made in India vs Tejas. Su30 also initially had French and Israeli avionics, not Indian. Russians refused to give codes and hence India took Israeli or french items. The development took time and UPA made things difficult

AESA is for Mk-1A and Mk-2. What about the 40 Mk-1 aircraft? Why we unable to develop a slotted array radar (forget PESA & AESA, slotted array is most basic form of MMR for fighter aircraft) for Mk-1 for decades?

Before speaking like a loudmouth, first tell me how you know that IOC Tejas has no radar at all? How did you get this information?

Tejas IOC has Multimode radar. I am not sure what type it is. Attached is the ADA brochure after IOC was obtained. Read the file in the attachment.

Answer the question dear.

Show me an Indian-made turboprop (which is SO MUCH less complicated than a turbofan) and I will believe AL-31FP is indigenous.

India has already made 52kN turbofan and is being used for Ghatak UAV. This has been confirmed by GTRE and DRDO. So, the non afterburner turbofan is already ready. I don't know if India is ever planning to get turboprop plane and hence there is no reason to get turboprop.

It is an evolutionary improvement as you make engine out of better materials and change the fuel mix and make the missile body lighter (again because of using newer materials). Between the earlier variants of Kub and the latter variants there is already significant improvement. After that Soviets abandoned this and went to better missiles like Buk family.

We just continued improving it that's all. If Russians develop a Kub variant today, it will be much superior to Akash.

The whole point of missile in engine and fuel. The fuel is a chemical and it can't be upgrded. There is nothing called 10% chemical, 30% chemical etc. You change the compound itself and that is new research. Otherwise, everyone knows to make toy rockets.

How do you know that Russia can make better missile than India in Akash class missile? Akash is a small range missile. and deliberately made so to be able to mass produce. Indian Akash is very similar to Buk class SAM. The weight, range, warhead etc are very similar to Buk missile. Make proper research before opening you foul mouth. Don't just be eager to speak up anything that you found to be fancy

If Tejas was an infantry fighting vehicle, this would have been enough for FOC. Unfortunately Tejas is a fighter AIRcraft.

It's only when you start flying that issues like weight, recoil absorption and vibration issues affecting flight characteristics start showing up. And remember, no gun = no FOC.

This was an old video of Tejas firing gun. Do you have information that flying test is not completed? I have shown the video available but never claimed that this is final. Don't use lack of data to make your own arbitrary conclusions.

...which was meant to happen in 1990.

The aircraft was thought of in 1983, not started in 1983. Tejas programme took off only in 1990s. Till 1980s India made MiG21 in India and making Tejas was not thought as important but just as next iteration of MiG21. Tejas has come a long way since. There is no need to cmpare the past design to current

Brilliant theory. Tell me how exactly did UPA screw up LCA program?

By underfunding, not clearing files in timely manner etc. You can keep your brilliancy with yourself.

Come back and talk to me once you've learnt a thing or two about submarines.

You first learn about submarines and then tell me. You are one of the most foolish person I have seen. I have never heard anyone saying that surfacing will reduce power needs of engine! The battery of submarine makes the submarine go slower than the engine. This should come as common sense.

Tech is always miniaturizing. But subs do not miniaturize. You are using the wrong word (understandable given your stupidity).

For example if you think Virginia is a miniaturized Ohio, you're an idiot.

I am speaking of nuclear submarine, not any submarine. The size of nuclear reactor is critical for miniaturisation of nuclear submarine. Do you say that computation technology has miniaturised or do you say that computer has been miniaturised? Same logic applies to submarines

Even Arihant has torpedo tubes. There is no such thing as a modern submarine which does not have torpedo tubes. Without them a sub is totally defenceless.

And btw, do you think it is having torpedo tubes which makes a submarine SSN?

The French Barracuda class has 50MW reactor for 5000tons. So, comparatively, Arihant is not any inferior in power. How did you conclude that Arihant is slow? I need a explanation to your statement first.

 

[Parthu]

We wrote codes because we wanted indigenisation. Russians refused to give codes but only hardware. Codes if given can be used to hack or use countermeasure.

If codes of Bars radar are Indian, then why are we unable to integrate Derby with it? Why do we continue to use the crappy R-77? If the radar was indigenized, then why do the French have a problem in integrating Meteor with Su-30MKI?

Making odd looking entity does not serve any purpose.

Are you really stating here on record that the various stealth test beds of 1960s and 1980s served no purpose?

Tejas has surpassed all the ability of these planes.

Except in the fact that those plans were actually fully operational.

Come to think of it - the MiG-21 Bison of IAF is fully certified with BVR capability for years, Tejas so far conducted only 1 test firing.

India does not have modern avionics

Spot on.

Su30 also initially had French and Israeli avionics, not Indian. Russians refused to give codes and hence India took Israeli or french items.

We went with French & Israeli stuff because they performed better and we had freedom to customize our aircraft spec.

Before speaking like a loudmouth, first tell me how you know that IOC Tejas has no radar at all? How did you get this information?

Where did I say that? Go back and read my post and tell me where I said Tejas IOC does not have a radar?

And you say I'm the one who speaks like a loudmouth and doesn't know how to read

I said why Tejas Mk-1 does not an indigenous radar? If we were capable of developing PESA MMR for Tejas Mk-1A/Mk-2 as you said, I asked why on earth were we unable to develop the much simpler slotted-array MMR for Mk-1? Why do we import ELM-2032 for Tejas IOC (Mk-1) from Israel?

The whole point of missile in engine and fuel. The fuel is a chemical and it can't be upgrded. There is nothing called 10% chemical, 30% chemical etc. You change the compound itself and that is new research. Otherwise, everyone knows to make toy rockets.

How do you know that Russia can make better missile than India in Akash class missile? Akash is a small range missile. and deliberately made so to be able to mass produce. Indian Akash is very similar to Buk class SAM. The weight, range, warhead etc are very similar to Buk missile. Make proper research before opening you foul mouth. Don't just be eager to speak up anything that you found to be fancy

There is such a thing as energy density of fuel. You would know this if you took some time out of your existence to go to school maybe.

This was an old video of Tejas firing gun. Do you have information that flying test is not completed? I have shown the video available but never claimed that this is final. Don't use lack of data to make your own arbitrary conclusions.

You can believe whatever you want. You can believe India already developed 5th gen fighter but is not showing it to anyone because reasons. That said, in the world where we live, people are innocent until proven guilty (i.e. it is not fired its gun until it is proven that it has), not the other way round. I don't know what world you descent from.

And if it has, why wouldn't they publicize it? They even publicized test of Derby in ballistic non-guided (BNG) mode.

The aircraft was thought of in 1983, not started in 1983. Tejas programme took off only in 1990s. Till 1980s India made MiG21 in India and making Tejas was not thought as important but just as next iteration of MiG21. Tejas has come a long way since. There is no need to cmpare the past design to current


By underfunding, not clearing files in timely manner etc. You can keep your brilliancy with yourself.

The pattern I'm noticing is that things happen minimum 10 years after the date they were supposed to. Hence, Indian Stretched Time.

You first learn about submarines and then tell me. You are one of the most foolish person I have seen. I have never heard anyone saying that surfacing will reduce power needs of engine!

So you want to believe that the power needs of nuclear submarine are the same as a diesel electric one?

Gosh, I am yet to see someone on the forum more idiotic than you.

I am speaking of nuclear submarine, not any submarine.
The size of nuclear reactor is critical for miniaturisation of nuclear submarine.

As I said, tech miniaturizes, the platform itself does not (at least not in this case). You do not miniaturize submarines because PWR can be made smaller. Sub size is dependent on role it is expected to perform. That is why each class of American SSN is bigger than the last despite tech getting smaller & smaller.

Ever wondered why Ford class carrier is same size as Nimitz class built in 70s despite all tech having gotten smaller?

The French Barracuda class has 50MW reactor for 5000tons. So, comparatively, Arihant is not any inferior in power. How did you conclude that Arihant is slow? I need a explanation to your statement first.

Try to educate yourself regarding difference between MWt and MWh. Also try to read about to what percentage level the fuel for these reactors is enriched, and how it effects power generation.

You are too stupid to have a conversation with. You remind me of my 14 year old self.

 

[Kvasir]

Does Gripen fire its cannon? Oh! It does not have a cannon.

What!?

On the aircraft's left, under the nose is a Mauser BK-27.

Only the two-seat trainer variants, the JAS-39B and JAS-39F lack the cannon to accommodate additional fuel and life support systems.

 

[advaidhya]

If codes of Bars radar are Indian, then why are we unable to integrate Derby with it? Why do we continue to use the crappy R-77? If the radar was indigenized, then why do the French have a problem in integrating Meteor with Su-30MKI?

Did anyone tell you that there was an attempt to integrate derby? Give me source? R73, R77 and Astra have been integrated. India has integrated all its indigenous glide bombs, brahmos missile etc and that showed that India can integrate. Whether derby was tried or not is something I don't know. You first give me source that derby was not able to be integrated.

Are you really stating here on record that the various stealth test beds of 1960s and 1980s served no purpose?

They were attempts but failures. They only gave idea but served no other purpose.

Except in the fact that those plans were actually fully operational.

Come to think of it - the MiG-21 Bison of IAF is fully certified with BVR capability for years, Tejas so far conducted only 1 test firing.

We went with French & Israeli stuff because they performed better and we had freedom to customize our aircraft spec.

1 test firing? You want every test firing to be released to you? Do you have derangement?

Yes, in early 2000s, India did not have advanced avionics. But India has now substituted them.

Where did I say that? Go back and read my post and tell me where I said Tejas IOC does not have a radar?

And you say I'm the one who speaks like a loudmouth and doesn't know how to read

I said why Tejas Mk-1 does not an indigenous radar? If we were capable of developing PESA MMR for Tejas Mk-1A/Mk-2 as you said, I asked why on earth were we unable to develop the much simpler slotted-array MMR for Mk-1? Why do we import ELM-2032 for Tejas IOC (Mk-1) from Israel?

What do I know? May be it was not worth it to develop a new radar for 20 Tejas? It could simply be to expedite the IOC as there was no interest in wasting time. Since the low quality radar was only temporary, no point developing new one. Israel was offering one off the shelf and hence considered expedient.

There is such a thing as energy density of fuel. You would know this if you took some time out of your existence to go to school maybe.

You moron, I have been telling that new fuel is not upgradation. Changing fuel from Kerosene to Ammonium compound is not called upgrade, for example. Fuel is developed fully new. There is no magic to condense fuel to make it more dense. Maybe you should go to mental hospital for thinking that way.

You can believe whatever you want. You can believe India already developed 5th gen fighter but is not showing it to anyone because reasons. That said, in the world where we live, people are innocent until proven guilty (i.e. it is not fired its gun until it is proven that it has), not the other way round. I don't know what world you descent from.

And if it has, why wouldn't they publicize it? They even publicized test of Derby in ballistic non-guided (BNG) mode.

You should first believe that you don't have a brain because you did not see it and hence there is no proof

The pattern I'm noticing is that things happen minimum 10 years after the date they were supposed to. Hence, Indian Stretched Time.

You notice nothing and that is your problem. AIP was promised and delivered with 1 year delay, for example. Seekers were promised in 2018 but delivered in 2017. UTTAM AESA was said to be in testing from 2019 but it is already in testing. Things have been going fast or slow according to government in power.

So you want to believe that the power needs of nuclear submarine are the same as a diesel electric one?

Gosh, I am yet to see someone on the forum more idiotic than you.

The propulsion requires same power as it is all about water being pushed behind to move faster. You are extraordinarily stupid to think nuclear reactors fly like superman

As I said, tech miniaturizes, the platform itself does not (at least not in this case). You do not miniaturize submarines because PWR can be made smaller. Sub size is dependent on role it is expected to perform. That is why each class of American SSN is bigger than the last despite tech getting smaller & smaller.

Ever wondered why Ford class carrier is same size as Nimitz class built in 70s despite all tech having gotten smaller?

The limitation of nuclear reactor size for required power can make a ceiling for miniaturisation. The size can increase but not decrease beyond the limit. More miniature reactor one can make, lower the minimum threshold.

Try to educate yourself regarding difference between MWt and MWh. Also try to read about to what percentage level the fuel for these reactors is enriched, and how it effects power generation.

You are too stupid to have a conversation with. You remind me of my 14 year old self.

I am more than aware of MWT and MWH. That is why I said that 90MW power or 30MW electricity. Read my posts. You are beginning to fart from your mouth.

 

[Parthu]

Did anyone tell you that there was an attempt to integrate derby? Give me source?

There was no attempt because they knew outright that it was not possible (which would not be the case if the codes of the radar were Indian, because then we can integrate whatever we want with it). But logically if integration was possible then attempt should have been made as early as possible to replace R-77 because that is one of the most unreliable BVRAAMs in the world.

R73, R77 and Astra have been integrated. India has integrated all its indigenous glide bombs, brahmos missile etc and that showed that India can integrate.

India did not integrate R73 and R77, Russians did. Those come with the aircraft and are used by every country that operates Flanker, including China. BrahMos was integrated because that is basically Russian missile (Yakhont). Indian LGBs and PGMs could be integrated because Russia shared the codes for integration as no third party is being brought in (this is between seller and customer, which is India).

They were attempts but failures. They only gave idea but served no other purpose.

Yeah right, F-117 which fought in Gulf War and in Yugoslavia is a failure. But Tejas which doesn't even have FOC is a success.

1 test firing? You want every test firing to be released to you? Do you have derangement?

Let there be 100 tests if not 1. Point is Tejas is not combat-ready platform as per IAF nomenclature. MiG-21 Bison is. Everything LCA can do, Bison can do. But the actions are performed by a more modern platform thats all. It's not for no reason that IAF officers called LCA as a MiG-21++.

Yes, in early 2000s, India did not have advanced avionics. But India has now substituted them.

While continuing to import billions worth from Israel.

What do I know? May be it was not worth it to develop a new radar for 20 Tejas? It could simply be to expedite the IOC as there was no interest in wasting time. Since the low quality radar was only temporary, no point developing new one. Israel was offering one off the shelf and hence considered expedient.

If you think one should develop radar for just a fighter and stop there (which is likely what defence labs think as their view is limited), that shows why you are so bent on sending India down the Soviet path.

You moron,

Watch your language boy. I wouldn't want specimens like you to end up getting banned.

You should first believe that you don't have a brain because you did not see it and hence there is no proof

I remember seeing my brain at least once.

The propulsion requires same power as it is all about water being pushed behind to move faster. You are extraordinarily stupid to think nuclear reactors fly like superman

And the needs for controlling a reactor is the same as a diesel engine? I'm telling you for the umpteenth time. Stop and think.

The limitation of nuclear reactor size for required power can make a ceiling for miniaturisation. The size can increase but not decrease beyond the limit. More miniature reactor one can make, lower the minimum threshold.

I am more than aware of MWT and MWH. That is why I said that 90MW power or 30MW electricity. Read my posts. You are beginning to fart from your mouth.

Of course you are more than aware of everything after I tell you about it.

 

[advaidhya]

There was no attempt because they knew outright that it was not possible (which would not be the case if the codes of the radar were Indian, because then we can integrate whatever we want with it). But logically if integration was possible then attempt should have been made as early as possible to replace R-77 because that is one of the most unreliable BVRAAMs in the world.

Derby is a WVR, not comparable to R77/Astra. R73 can be replaced but not R77/Astra. If you don't know don't speak.

India did not integrate R73 and R77, Russians did. Those come with the aircraft and are used by every country that operates Flanker, including China. BrahMos was integrated because that is basically Russian missile (Yakhont). Indian LGBs and PGMs could be integrated because Russia shared the codes for integration as no third party is being brought in (this is between seller and customer, which is India).

Do you know everything? Who integrated Astra? Russians?

Yeah right, F-117 which fought in Gulf War and in Yugoslavia is a failure. But Tejas which doesn't even have FOC is a success.

Keep shifting goal post to F117 and next to F22 and so on.

Let there be 100 tests if not 1. Point is Tejas is not combat-ready platform as per IAF nomenclature. MiG-21 Bison is. Everything LCA can do, Bison can do. But the actions are performed by a more modern platform thats all. It's not for no reason that IAF officers called LCA as a MiG-21++.

That is your own fantasy. No one can help if you think Bison can fire BVR missiles or carry 4 ton payload.

While continuing to import billions worth from Israel.

The cot of 20 radar is in billions? Do you know anything?

If you think one should develop radar for just a fighter and stop there (which is likely what defence labs think as their view is limited), that shows why you are so bent on sending India down the Soviet path.

I wouldn't want specimens like you

Watch your language child. Else you may have to be declared as persona non grata.

And the needs for controlling a reactor is the same as a diesel engine? I'm telling you for the umpteenth time. Stop and think

I also am asking you to stop and think. I have told several times that only 33% iis electricity and rest goes to various other work.

 

[Parthu]

Derby is a WVR, not comparable to R77/Astra. R73 can be replaced but not R77/Astra. If you don't know don't speak.

The only version of Derby IAF has bought for aircraft is the radar-guided i-Derby ER which is a BVRAAM with range of 80 to 100km. If this is WVR, then Astra and R-77 are also WVR.

Do you know everything? Who integrated Astra? Russians?

Actually the Astra which we tested from Su-30MKI has Russian seeker from Agat JSC, which is of the same family of seekers as found on R-77. So yeah, Astra was not a problem to integrate.

Keep shifting goal post to F117 and next to F22 and so on.

Have Blue is to F-117 what YF-22 was to F-22 and what Tejas PV was to Tejas Mk-1. If you think they have nothing to do with each other, you are mistaken.

That is your own fantasy. No one can help if you think Bison can fire BVR missiles

^^ That plane is actual jet taken from an IAF squadron. Not a display model.

or carry 4 ton payload.

I can show you dozen fighter types that were made long before Tejas that can carry more payload than it. So what does that prove?

The cot of 20 radar is in billions? Do you know anything?

I mean everything avionics and radars related that we buy from Israel. For IAF, IA and IN.

 

[advaidhya]

The only version of Derby IAF has bought for aircraft is the radar-guided i-Derby ER which is a BVRAAM with range of 80 to 100km. If this is WVR, then Astra and R-77 are also WVR.

Derby weighs 105-120kg. It can't go 80km. I am not speaking of ballistic trajectory going 80km but air to air range of 80km.

Have Blue is to F-117 what YF-22 was to F-22 and what Tejas PV was to Tejas Mk-1. If you think they have nothing to do with each other, you are mistaken.

You can link V2 rocket to Agni missile i that manner. I can't continue on this

Actually the Astra which we tested from Su-30MKI has Russian seeker from Agat JSC, which is of the same family of seekers as found on R-77. So yeah, Astra was not a problem to integrate.

This is your opinion. Astra will be having Indian seeker. Seeker is the most important part of a missile. There is no point calling a missile indigenous with Russian seekers. Even Astra on Su30 is having Indian seekers. Just read about BARS radar where India delivered the processing unit to make the codes and algorithm Indian.

I can show you dozen fighter types that were made long before Tejas that can carry more payload than it. So what does that prove?

Even Boeing 747 can carry more. I am referring to your specific post speaking of MiG21 being equal to Tejas

 

[Parthu]

Derby weighs 105-120kg. It can't go 80km. I am not speaking of ballistic trajectory going 80km but air to air range of 80km.

Please read official literature. There is an earlier smaller version of Derby and the new i-Derby ER came later. This is extended range version designed for BVR requirement for fighters - and that is the version that India bought. This was confirmed by various defence journalists.

You can link V2 rocket to Agni missile i that manner. I can't continue on this

Then don't. Those who know will know what is relation between Have Blue and F-117 and will also know that the relation is nothing like the parallel between V2 and Agni which you say I am drawing (which I am not).

This is your opinion. Astra will be having Indian seeker.

WILL be having. WILL is the key word. Yes, the completed Astra Mk-1 is meant to have Indian Ku-band seeker. But that is still a ways off from being ready. Its still in ground testing and not been launched from Su-30.

Even Astra on Su30 is having Indian seekers.

Sigh.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2016/december/din-19Dec2016.pdf

The version with Indian seeker has not been tested from Su-30 yet. But even then its not a problem because there's no third party (like France) involved.

Even Boeing 747 can carry more. I am referring to your specific post speaking of MiG21 being equal to Tejas

It is equal in the sense it can deliver all capabilities which LCA promises to deliver. Obviously not to same degree, some worse, some better. For example, MiG-21 airframe has higher g-stress tolerance than Tejas airframe. But it plays into the larger picture of why Tejas is a MiG-21++.

 

[advaidhya]

Sigh.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2016/december/din-19Dec2016.pdf

The version with Indian seeker has not been tested from Su-30 yet. But even then its not a problem because there's no third party (like France) involved.

This is 2016. Indian seeker came in 2017. From which plane was the seeker tested? If no plane could integrate the seeker, how was it tested at all? Give some thought.

It is equal in the sense it can deliver all capabilities which LCA promises to deliver. Obviously not to same degree, some worse, some better. For example, MiG-21 airframe has higher g-stress tolerance than Tejas airframe. But it plays into the larger picture of why Tejas is a MiG-21++.

miG21 is bad at maneuvering and is just a fast plane. Its high G values are theoretical and if ever used, it will crash the plane. Teas airframe can withstand excess of 12G but the conditions of Indian hot and humid climate where temperature is taken as 40 degree celsius and humidity over 90%, the 8G still holds. All other planes are having 0g for easier conditions, not Indian conditions.

MiG21 is having payload of 1.3tons and MToW of 10 tons. It has no radar, no composite airframe or nothing meaningful at all. 1.3ton payload is nothing but a joke

 

[GuardianRED]

This is 2016. Indian seeker came in 2017. From which plane was the seeker tested? If no plane could integrate the seeker, how was it tested at all? Give some thought.

miG21 is bad at maneuvering and is just a fast plane. Its high G values are theoretical and if ever used, it will crash the plane. Teas airframe can withstand excess of 12G but the conditions of Indian hot and humid climate where temperature is taken as 40 degree celsius and humidity over 90%, the 8G still holds. All other planes are having 0g for easier conditions, not Indian conditions.

MiG21 is having payload of 1.3tons and MToW of 10 tons. It has no radar, no composite airframe or nothing meaningful at all. 1.3ton payload is nothing but a joke

Pal... Please do some research on the MiG 21 Bison before making Funny comments!

 

[Parthu]

This is 2016. Indian seeker came in 2017. From which plane was the seeker tested? If no plane could integrate the seeker, how was it tested at all? Give some thought.

You give it some thought. Do you think they just latch on a new seeker to a missile and drop it from aircraft straight away?

There are dozens if not hundreds of tests that happen on ground before it ever takes to the air.

miG21 is bad at maneuvering and is just a fast plane. Its high G values are theoretical and if ever used, it will crash the plane. Teas airframe can withstand excess of 12G but the conditions of Indian hot and humid climate where temperature is taken as 40 degree celsius and humidity over 90%, the 8G still holds. All other planes are having 0g for easier conditions, not Indian conditions.

The MiG-21 flight control systems are locked at 8.5g keeping in mind all safety conditions and airframe stress tolerance. For Tejas Mk-1, the lock is at 8g.

That is the bottomline.

It has no radar, no composite airframe or nothing meaningful at all. 1.3ton payload is nothing but a joke

MiG-21 has no radar? Seriously what world do you live in?

If it has no radar then how R-77s were integrated on it? You do know that R-77 is a radar-guided missile right? This is why I keep telling you to stop and think before writing nonsense.

MiG-21 has radar and so does the F-7 used by our western neighbour.

 

[advaidhya]

Pal... Please do some research on the MiG 21 Bison before making Funny comments!

Which part. Explain? Show me anywhere that MiG21 has high speed maneuverability or more than 1.5ton payload.

The MiG-21 flight control systems are locked at 8.5g keeping in mind all safety conditions and airframe stress tolerance. For Tejas Mk-1, the lock is at 8g.

That is the bottomline.

MiG21 does not have FBW to lock it. Even in Tejas, it is allowed to go above 8G but 8G is the rated one and certified to be fit in the worst of climate. There is no lock per say but just warning.

MiG-21 has no radar? Seriously what world do you live in?

It has no comparable radar and it had R60 which was later made to R73. It can't have R77 as range is not good enough. The radar existed but was too primitive to be even compared with modern ones.

 

[Parthu]

MiG21 does not have FBW to lock it.

Its not FBW which locks G limit. It is flight computer. Which exist on aircraft since before FBW was invented.

Even in Tejas, it is allowed to go above 8G but 8G is the rated one and certified to be fit in the worst of climate. There is no lock per say but just warning.

All aircraft are capable of going above their designed limits. But the point is LCA limit kicks in much sooner than MiG-21 limit.

It can't have R77 as range is not good enough.

And IAF is a fool for having integrated R-77 on Bison? I even showed you photos. Do a google search if you want more confirmation that this happened.

The radar existed but was too primitive to be even compared with modern ones.

From having no radar to having no radar that is good enough. And you accuse me of changing goal posts by relating HaveBlue with F117 (which anyone with even moderate understanding of aviation history can tell you what the relation is).

I'm done conversing with you.

 

[advaidhya]

Its not FBW which locks G limit. It is flight computer. Which exist on aircraft since before FBW was invented.



All aircraft are capable of going above their designed limits. But the point is LCA limit kicks in much sooner than MiG-21 limit.



And IAF is a fool for having integrated R-77 on Bison? I even showed you photos. Do a google search if you want more confirmation that this happened.



From having no radar to having no radar that is good enough. And you accuse me of changing goal posts by relating HaveBlue with F117 (which anyone with even moderate understanding of aviation history can tell you what the relation is).

I'm done conversing with you.

I myself have told that MiG21 can fire Air-Air missile which meant that I knew that there was a radar without which no firing can be done. I know that even ancient planes like Folland Gnat had radar. I was only comparing Tejas and modern radar. MiG21 having that old radar is as good as having none in current technological terms.

R77 and R73 can be integrated. But without radar having range, it is pointless. Integrating a missile is never a problem as both have similar interface. I am only speaking in terms of effectiveness. Even LCH for that matter can be integrated with Astra if these people feel like doing so. But it will not be able to fire properly due to lack of radar range.

LCA has certified 8G. Do you have source to say that "limit kicks in" at 8g?

 

[Parthu]

I myself have told that MiG21 can fire Air-Air missile which meant that I knew that there was a radar without which no firing can be done.

You can fire IR-guided missiles without having radar. Having fire control radar is necessary for launching radar-guided missiles.

I was only comparing Tejas and modern radar. MiG21 having that old radar is as good as having none in current technological terms.

You don't have to cover up you know. What you said is in clear view for anyone reading the posts. This is not even first time you jumped to posting ridiculous assertions, remember that bit about Gripen having no gun?

R77 and R73 can be integrated. But without radar having range, it is pointless.

Having the option of attacking with both radar guided and IR guided missiles offers a pilot critical advantage in air combat as it is a great means of confusing and overwhelming any enemy target. Having an 80km missile does not mean every engagement happens at 80km. You can put missiles on platforms if you think doing so grants you a tactical advantage in combat. Which is why IAF (which obviously knows more about air combat than you or me) have done this.

LCA has certified 8G.

MiG-21 has certified 8.5 G

Do you have source to say that "limit kicks in" at 8g?

This is straight from Tejas brochure from ADA website: https://www.ada.gov.in/images/IOC content/ADA- Tejas Brochure Final.pdf

Not only G limit but also Angle of Attack (AoA) is worse than Mig-21. LCA currently set at 24 degree while MiG-21 capable up to 33 degrees.

 

[advaidhya]

You don't have to cover up you know. What you said is in clear view for anyone reading the posts. This is not even first time you jumped to posting ridiculous assertions, remember that bit about Gripen having no gun?

Typing has limits. It is not as simple as speaking. Ca't waste too much time writing essays here

Not only G limit but also Angle of Attack (AoA) is worse than Mig-21. LCA currently set at 24 degree while MiG-21 capable up to 33 degrees.

Tejas final AoA will be 28 degrees. This AoA is for IOC certification. Things will be refined later. Risks are avoided in IOC. By the way, there is no lock of 8G. The certification of MiG21 is at Indian conditions or standard conditions? The Tejas G limits is at Indian conditions which is tougher than standard conditions.

 

[zebra7]

Hey Guys First tell what is the limit of the Pilot's G Limit according to your experience.

 

[zebra7]

I read very long back Bars to be upgraded in 2 two step. First antenna later back end ..

I guess the time flew , now we can do both simultaneously.

Both parts makes 25%, now what about the Rest 75% the Software ????

 

[zebra7]

https://twitter.com/zone5aviation/statu ... 2791014402

On the IAF's Su-30MKI upgrade — Rosoboronexport has received the list of requirements and has agreed to almost everything. Upgrade can be synced to overhaul cycles or even new builds, if ordered in time. Either entirely executed by HAL or with some Irkut involvement.

Credits : BR

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