Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[randomradio]

No, Why would IAF order enough mk2 if AMCA is near? The timelines are too close now for LCA mk2 and AMCA Mk1. If they get project approval next year then the difference will be just few years.

ORCA will not exist. Its pointless.

About 350 LCAs are necessary at the minimum. So about 6 squadrons are guaranteed.

The original plan was 270 MKIs + 126 Rafales + 127 FGFA + 140 AMCA + 123 LCA Mk1/A + 201 LCA Mk2 = 987 jets. Remove some of the oldest MKIs and a handful of crashed jets to get to the 45x21 = 945 jets we need.

And then, more Rafales (63) and FGFA (48 two-seaters) would replace the oldest MKIs before the next replacement cycle commences.

Now, with numbers skewed more towards LCA Mk1/A (220), it leaves room for at least 7 Mk2 squadrons to get to the final number.

And, with FGFA gone, it frees up a massive amount of jets. So it's very easy for LCA Mk2 to climb back to 201 jets.

So, 270 MKIs + (36+114) Rafales + 140 AMCA + 220 LCA Mk1/A + 201 LCA Mk2 = 981 jets. Pretty much where we were the first time. And this time, more Rafales and AMCA can replace the oldest MKIs (like the 84 MLUs), 2 squadrons each. Plus, at this time, the LCA Mk1s will also be leaving service. That's another 32 jets, 2 more squadrons.

 

[TARGET]

About 350 LCAs are necessary at the minimum. So about 6 squadrons are guaranteed.

The original plan was 270 MKIs + 126 Rafales + 127 FGFA + 140 AMCA + 123 LCA Mk1/A + 201 LCA Mk2 = 987 jets. Remove some of the oldest MKIs and a handful of crashed jets to get to the 45x21 = 945 jets we need.

And then, more Rafales (63) and FGFA (48 two-seaters) would replace the oldest MKIs before the next replacement cycle commences.

Now, with numbers skewed more towards LCA Mk1/A (220), it leaves room for at least 7 Mk2 squadrons to get to the final number.

And, with FGFA gone, it frees up a massive amount of jets. So it's very easy for LCA Mk2 to climb back to 201 jets.

So, 270 MKIs + (36+114) Rafales + 140 AMCA + 220 LCA Mk1/A + 201 LCA Mk2 = 981 jets. Pretty much where we were the first time. And this time, more Rafales and AMCA can replace the oldest MKIs (like the 84 MLUs), 2 squadrons each. Plus, at this time, the LCA Mk1s will also be leaving service. That's another 32 jets, 2 more squadrons.

I would like to add two SU-57 or F-35 squadrons before AMCA induction, as AMCA development is nowhere on the horizon. Once the IAF operates 5th generation fighters, they will have a basic idea of a 5th generation fighter and can set better parameters for AMCA.

If we are worried about TOT rights for the Fighter engine, we should take a clear stand on joint development of the engine and buy GE414, directly with whatever TOT from the US. Anyway, we are already buying the GE404 in large numbers.

We should go with MFRA, as it will be an employment generator if we get a good amount of TOT from France, as France will move to the 5th generation. India can offer maintenance and spare parts to all the nations who have previously purchased Rafale aircraft.

 

[Ashwin]

About 350 LCAs are necessary at the minimum. So about 6 squadrons are guaranteed.

The original plan was 270 MKIs + 126 Rafales + 127 FGFA + 140 AMCA + 123 LCA Mk1/A + 201 LCA Mk2 = 987 jets. Remove some of the oldest MKIs and a handful of crashed jets to get to the 45x21 = 945 jets we need.

And then, more Rafales (63) and FGFA (48 two-seaters) would replace the oldest MKIs before the next replacement cycle commences.

Now, with numbers skewed more towards LCA Mk1/A (220), it leaves room for at least 7 Mk2 squadrons to get to the final number.

And, with FGFA gone, it frees up a massive amount of jets. So it's very easy for LCA Mk2 to climb back to 201 jets.

So, 270 MKIs + (36+114) Rafales + 140 AMCA + 220 LCA Mk1/A + 201 LCA Mk2 = 981 jets. Pretty much where we were the first time. And this time, more Rafales and AMCA can replace the oldest MKIs (like the 84 MLUs), 2 squadrons each. Plus, at this time, the LCA Mk1s will also be leaving service. That's another 32 jets, 2 more squadrons.

My point is not about funds or numbers, but rather the incentive for ADA to deliver AMCA when mk2 is still dragging on.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I would like to add two SU-57 or F-35 squadrons before AMCA induction, as AMCA development is nowhere on the horizon. Once the IAF operates 5th generation fighters, they will have a basic idea of a 5th generation fighter and can set better parameters for AMCA.

If we are worried about TOT rights for the Fighter engine, we should take a clear stand on joint development of the engine and buy GE414, directly with whatever TOT from the US. Anyway, we are already buying the GE404 in large numbers.

We should go with MFRA, as it will be an employment generator if we get a good amount of TOT from France, as France will move to the 5th generation. India can offer maintenance and spare parts to all the nations who have previously purchased Rafale aircraft.

Absolutely agree on all your points except one. Just watch this video from 1:15:00 onwards and then tell me do you really want IAF to procure the biggest fvcked up fighter program/plane ever:

PS: Mike 'Pako' Benitez is an ex F-15E WSO and an insider of NGAD program. So he knows what he is talking about.

PS2: Sorry mods for going OT, but couldn't help myself

 

[Ginvincible]

There is not much differences between two. Most things will be reused in the AMCA mk1. However late, LCA Mk2 will be a reality. No question about it.

Doesn't this just support the argument against the mk2? If it's just a cheaper, less capable, AMCA why invest into it? Especially if the time tables are similar. Use the mk2 as a tech demonstrator and go more into AMCA and buddy drones to offset any gaps.

You cant just push AMCA timelines like that. A stealth aircraft is an absolute necessity.

A medium weight general purpose fighter has been absolutely necessary for the better part of the past 20 years, yet here we are still talking about delays to the mk2.

Just because there is a need for a stealth aircraft doesn't mean it will be competently delivered on time .

Given the track record its safer to assume delays.

 

[TARGET]

Absolutely agree on all your points except one. Just watch this video from 1:15:00 onwards and then tell me do you really want IAF to procure the biggest fvcked up fighter program/plane ever:

PS: Mike 'Pako' Benitez is an ex F-15E WSO and an insider of NGAD program. So he knows what he is talking about.

PS2: Sorry mods for going OT, but couldn't help myself

We can't comment on any of the 5th generation because the focus isn't on flight characteristics but rather on stealth and computing power. American machines are reliable, but in terms of agility, you will have concerns compared to Russian designs. With the hardware design of decision-making systems, you will get unparalleled computing power in American machines, and it will be difficult to beat these machines.

IAF will look into the cost factor, but if you see MQ 9 is not cheaper, we are going to buy it in bulk. The main concern is that we don't like to use the American offensive platform due to the multiple strings attached to the machine, not in the case of surveillance and transport aircraft.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

We can't comment on any of the 5th generation because the focus isn't on flight characteristics but rather on stealth and computing power. American machines are reliable, but in terms of agility, you will have concerns compared to Russian designs. With the hardware design of decision-making systems, you will get unparalleled computing power in American machines, and it will be difficult to beat these machines.

The problem is that the Americans are swindlers:

• They use bullshit to make you believe that their system works, or that it will work next year, when in fact it will work in 20 years' time.
• They sell it to you for less than the competition, even though it costs twice as much
• But they charge you 3 times as much for maintenance
• And availability is so low that you'd need 5 times as many planes in the event of war.

 

[randomradio]

I would like to add two SU-57 or F-35 squadrons before AMCA induction, as AMCA development is nowhere on the horizon. Once the IAF operates 5th generation fighters, they will have a basic idea of a 5th generation fighter and can set better parameters for AMCA.

If we are worried about TOT rights for the Fighter engine, we should take a clear stand on joint development of the engine and buy GE414, directly with whatever TOT from the US. Anyway, we are already buying the GE404 in large numbers.

We should go with MFRA, as it will be an employment generator if we get a good amount of TOT from France, as France will move to the 5th generation. India can offer maintenance and spare parts to all the nations who have previously purchased Rafale aircraft.

Except for the Su-57 or F-35 option, everything else you mentioned is the plan. Any decision made in this regards can only be done after MRFA. In fact, the IAF will ensure that the MRFA has progressed quite a bit before they make their future plans known.

 

[randomradio]

My point is not about funds or numbers, but rather the incentive for ADA to deliver AMCA when mk2 is still dragging on.

ADA has every incentive to finish development as fast as possible so the IAF doesn't exercise foreign options. The IAF is already very close to it, considering AMCA is most definitely delayed. Digital simulations have reduced development time and the need for flight testing, so now AMCA has a more aggressive schedule than before but that doesn't mean anything without demonstration in the real world. So if others end up demonstrating AMCA's expected capabilities, then the IAF will bite. Additional orders meant to go to AMCA or MRFA could end up going to the Russians or Americans due to the need for inducting a proven jet.

LCA Mk2 has nothing to do with AMCA. Delays with AMCA won't translate into more orders for it. AMCA will have its own assembly line and production infrastructure with significant IAF and private player involvement. Although HAL's hoping the IAF will rather opt for Ozar over Sulur, quite unlikely.

 

[randomradio]

Doesn't this just support the argument against the mk2? If it's just a cheaper, less capable, AMCA why invest into it? Especially if the time tables are similar. Use the mk2 as a tech demonstrator and go more into AMCA and buddy drones to offset any gaps.


A medium weight general purpose fighter has been absolutely necessary for the better part of the past 20 years, yet here we are still talking about delays to the mk2.

Just because there is a need for a stealth aircraft doesn't mean it will be competently delivered on time .

Given the track record its safer to assume delays.

LCA Mk2 is necessary for missions that AMCA is way too expensive for. Plus we need Mk2 inducted in large numbers to make the F414 contract viable.

 

[Saaho]

Folks you people are too optimistic.

First flight of MK.2 will happen Around 2040 and induction will begin around 2047, just around 100 anneversity of Indian independence.
First flight of AMCA will have in 2098 and induction in 2155.

By 2355 Someone will claim that India is now Atmnirbhar in fighter jets even though all the engines will still be imported.

 

[randomradio]

The problem is that the Americans are swindlers:

• They use bullshit to make you believe that their system works, or that it will work next year, when in fact it will work in 20 years' time.
• They sell it to you for less than the competition, even though it costs twice as much
• But they charge you 3 times as much for maintenance
• And availability is so low that you'd need 5 times as many planes in the event of war.

Honestly, everybody, including the French (Scorpene) have swindled us. It happens whenever we go for operationally unproven systems. Scorpene was a very good example of that. So the lessons learned were put to use in the P-75I, so no more French in the program. Similarly, no more Russians. But in MMRCA, Dassault showed us what they had, so they got the contract.

Now, pretty much all our import programs are about operationally proven systems. So if the Americans want to sell us F-35s, they have to physically prove everything they have in front of IAF experts. The same goes for the Russian Su-57, this is one of the primary reasons why we didn't go for it. They wouldn't let us fly the jet or provide technical documentation, so, "Show us once it's ready."

Folks you people are too optimistic.

First flight of MK.2 will happen Around 2040 and induction will begin around 2047, just around 100 anneversity of Indian independence.
First flight of AMCA will have in 2098 and induction in 2155.

By 2355 Someone will claim that India is now Atmnirbhar in fighter jets even though all the engines will still be imported.

You are closer to the ADA's dates than they are.

 

[randomradio]

We can't comment on any of the 5th generation because the focus isn't on flight characteristics but rather on stealth and computing power. American machines are reliable, but in terms of agility, you will have concerns compared to Russian designs. With the hardware design of decision-making systems, you will get unparalleled computing power in American machines, and it will be difficult to beat these machines.

IAF will look into the cost factor, but if you see MQ 9 is not cheaper, we are going to buy it in bulk. The main concern is that we don't like to use the American offensive platform due to the multiple strings attached to the machine, not in the case of surveillance and transport aircraft.

From the Americans, we will only buy stuff that's operationally proven or ideally combat proven. Styker is one of them. The drones of course.

 

[Saaho]

You are closer to the ADA's dates than they are.

Since you gave me the :Haha: reaction, I will give you the real joke here.

Turdkey, who can not tell bird from a fish and who have much smaller defence budget than we do will have a fifth gen fighter before we deliver MK1A.

India defence production is some kind of paradox. It produces slower more money you put in.

In 1987, US was producing 284 F-16 per year. India in 2023 can barely manage to produce 8 per year.... With Engine, Nose cone, seat and a host of parts essentially imported....
It must be some kind of record. How not to develop and produce fighters. Just how do they do it?

 

[randomradio]

Since you gave me the :Haha: reaction, I will give you the real joke here.

Um... The reaction means what you said was funny, 'cause I show the same amount of disdain to ADA's schedules.

Turdkey, who can not tell bird from a fish and who have much smaller defence budget than we do will have a fifth gen fighter before we deliver MK1A.

India defence production is some kind of paradox. It produces slower more money you put in.

In 1987, US was producing 284 F-16 per year. India in 2023 can barely manage to produce 8 per year.... With Engine, Nose cone, seat and a host of parts essentially imported....
It must be some kind of record. How not to develop and produce fighters. Just how do they do it?

As per Trappier, the Turks will likely fail.

Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

100-200 was French wishful thinking? Though with Russia out of the picture and CAATSA. France is doing very well with the scraps. 100 -200 was a preliminary indiscretion at a time when Saudi Arabia thought it would order a sufficient number of Rafales to justify production of the planes at...

www.strategicfront.org

What to think of the Turkish combat aircraft project?

The Turks have capabilities, they have an industry. It is a country which, in certain aspects, is very westernized. They know how to do industry, they have demonstrated it and there is a level. They make small drones which were seen a lot in the Ukrainian war. Now, between making small drones and making a combat plane, there is a very big difference. I don't see them, but I could be wrong, being capable of making a combat plane.

They have problems, what the Americans want to sell them or not. After the F-35, the F-16, not the F-16? Are they going to buy the Eurofighter? Will the Germans authorize exports to Turkey? I read you all so I only know what you write, as usual... They will want to be in a team, but what team could they be in? And I don't see them developing a combat aircraft on their own, at least at the level that American or French aircraft could be.

We have a successful space program and nuclear program. We even have a successful SSBN program. So any judgment on our aerospace industry can be passed only around 2030-32, 'cause that's the culminating point of our aerospace endeavors. That's when we will have developed and deployed everything necessary to be considered an air power; a fighter jet, a stealth drone and an air liner. We have already achieved helicopters.

 

[Saaho]

We have a successful space program and nuclear program. We even have a successful SSBN program. So any judgment on our aerospace industry can be passed only around 2030-32, 'cause that's the culminating point of our aerospace endeavors. That's when we will have developed and deployed everything necessary to be considered an air power; a fighter jet, a stealth drone and an air liner. We have already achieved helicopters.

The point being, TIA has a revenue of 1.3 billion dollar. HAL 3.6 billion dollars. Almost THRICE! HAL employs TWICE the number of people. HAL has been in existance for 83 years, more than one and a half times of 50 odd years TAI has been in existance!

HAL has a history of developing two fighter jets from scratch. Marut and Tejas. AMCA started same time as TAI GAND, in 2010 and yet we will have it flying in just few days while AMCA is only a paper plane and not even a prototype. AMCA will not fly for another 10-15 years minimum while I think it can not fly before 2050 in honesty... and who knows how many decades after that.

I dont see how and what will happen in 2030 or so.

 

[Ashwin]

ADA has every incentive to finish development as fast as possible so the IAF doesn't exercise foreign options

Really? Is that what you learn from past ?

They have zero incentive towards that. Its not a private entity surviving on success of a project.

As you said, there is no shortage of requirement numbers. Even if imports there is enough space for late comers.

 

[randomradio]

The point being, TIA has a revenue of 1.3 billion dollar. HAL 3.6 billion dollars. Almost THRICE! HAL employs TWICE the number of people. HAL has been in existance for 83 years, more than one and a half times of 50 odd years TAI has been in existance!

HAL has a history of developing two fighter jets from scratch. Marut and Tejas. AMCA started same time as TAI GAND, in 2010 and yet we will have it flying in just few days while AMCA is only a paper plane and not even a prototype. AMCA will not fly for another 10-15 years minimum while I think it can not fly before 2050 in honesty... and who knows how many decades after that.

I dont see how and what will happen in 2030 or so.

HAL has nothing to do with the IAF's main R&D programs. That's done by ADA, it's a wholly different lab connected to DRDO. HAL just produces, and their revenues are bigger than TAI because their customer is bigger.

While HAL does some R&D, mostly out of their own pockets, it's all their own, nothing to do with the IAF. They then market it to the IAF hoping they bite, like the LCA Mk1A and HTT-40. They are pushing for an upgrade program called Jaguar MAX, and they also have some new simple air teaming system called CATS.

And TAI's fighter is quite modest, the same with Korea's KAI. Neither of them match up to AMCA. TAI is also working out of desperation, 'cause all other sources have been cut off.

 

[randomradio]

Really? Is that what you learn from past ?

They have zero incentive towards that. Its not a private entity surviving on success of a project.

As you said, there is no shortage of requirement numbers. Even if imports there is enough space for late comers.

Look, ADA only develops planes, they don't care how many LCA Mk2s are manufactured, whether it's 1 or 1000 or even none. 'Cause it's as you said, they don't make a profit. To them, it's all about making a concept design, paper design, construction and flight testing. After that they move on to the next program while the manufacturer takes over everything else. For example, ADA has nothing to do with LCA Mk1A.

So their raison d'etre is to keep the technology line moving. Originally, the 90s, there was no MMRCA or MRFA, there was only MKI, LCA, Mirage 2000 (MRCA) and MCA. Had ADA kept to their original schedule, the IAF would have finished LCA induction a long time ago, and would even be nearing the end of MCA production and would be preparing to move on to the next iteration of MCA today, or a whole new design.

But this plan was ruined because they couldn't finish LCA. And because the govt/IAF realized back then that LCA will not be ready in any meaningful period that they started MMRCA in 2004-07. And AMCA is now an entirely new thing 'cause FGFA failed, or the plan was to develop a slightly more advanced model of MCA in parallel to FGFA.

So, if ADA delays AMCA, then history will repeat, the IAF will just focus on a new import tender. How on earth does delaying AMCA benefit ADA if the IAF hands over the MKI replacement project to an FOEM? And if the IAF selects French again, even HAL will not benefit.

Both TEDBF and AMCA are extremely critical to the survival of ADA. If they keep failing, then the private sector will catch up and displace them. In the next 15 years, LCA replacement will be handed over to private companies. If ADA screws up, then whatever happened to CVRDE and OFB via FICV and FRCV will happen to ADA and HAL. The IAF is not gonna wait 'cause the security environment has completely changed.

 

[Rajput Lion]

So an aerospace giant like Lockheed Martin can screw up America's biggest fighter program but here we are bitchin, pissin and moaning about timelines of our future fighters(when we don't have a ready engine of our own), lmfao

Folks, people doubted Tejas and criticized it to no end, but now very soon we're going to have over 200 Tejas in MK1/A configuration. Single engine medium-light weight high end plane like Gripen-E is also required by us. So Tejas MK2 is coming by next decade, whether we like it or not.

Those who believed that we are going to have hordes of MK2 before 2030. Well...you were just being too naive.