Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[Parthu]

As per some rumours MRFA will come with a clause that OEMs should bear the cost of integrating Indian weapons and systems by themselves. IAF doesn't want to do it by themselves and increase their expenditure. Which means Rafale-C F4.2/3 with integrated Astra series, RudraM series and even MUM-T. Does it now make MRFA look viable to you?

Weapons integration is a given - it has to be. Especially now that we're coalescing around Astra & NGCCM (ASRAAM) which have to be integrated fleet-wide in IAF. It's mandatory now, even for Russian-origin platforms.

The problem with the MRFA is the overall cost however.

PS: RuAF has only 2 engine jets and they've beem sustaining high tempo operations in Ukraine for the last 2+ years. So @randomradio does have a point, IMO.

High tempo? Dude, the Russians have failed to establish air dominance over a country that doesn't even have a proper Air Force.

IUSAV. Rafale will come with IUSAV or its own drone.

It's likely we'll be fielding multiple types of Loyal wingmen. Each tailored to the type of fighter it'll be MUM-teaming with.

But some drone companion is going to be a given.

There are two drones planned. IUSAV and FUFA. Both are official IAF programs. FUFA dogfights.

FUFA is too far in the distant future to worry about now. More than likely it'll be coalesced into a 6th gen optionally-manned fighter program.

CATS is a simple design.

It's an evolving design as of yet - but the intent is clear.

All of this is just secondary to a fighter jet. A missile is fired and its done. But for repeated assaults you need a fighter jet. And for a long war as well, a fighter jet is necessary.

Loyal wingmen aren't meant to be kamikaze.

It doesn't matter. IRF and wingmen can alleviate the need for LCA, but not the DPS role.

For DPS, TE jets are necessary. The F-35 hasn't been designed for deep strike. The FB-22 and LRS-B were supposed to fulfill those roles. Now it will be NGAD and B-21. The USAF will continue using the F-15E for deep strike for the next 2 decades as well.

US is going full bore with PrSM & GL-Tomahawks in the Pacific. That should tell you something.

We are increasing Mk1As because Mk2 has been delayed and our fighter fleet is getting old.

Rafales are not for DPS alone, they will perform all missions. Even if Mk1A is increased to 1000, those 200 Rafales will still be necessary to perform all missions, from recce to DCA to OCA to DPS.

Mk-1A was originally an afterthought - one which is now becoming an increasingly crucial part of the IAF's backbone.

After the 170 Mk-1A, we might very well see additional numbers under a new Mk-1B config with further iterative improvements.

This is our IP. We can build as many as we want.

Rafale ToT will come with 100% airframe and engine. It's not screwdrivergiri. Even if it is, it's necessary 'cause a large and important country like India can't be beholden to a PSU. In any case, the Rafale M will be assembled in India. France plans to set up a production line on their own in Nagpur. We can't keep dealing with a monopolistic PSU forever, it will make us extremely weak in the long run.

India won't be beholden to a PSU - it's the PSU that's beholden to the GoI. Because it's GoI that cuts the cheques.

Sure a Pvt sector competitor capable of building fighters would be great to have, but building Rafale under ToT isn't necessary to achieve that. They can build Mk-1A/Mk-2 Tejas as well. We'll be needing additional production lines anyway - make one under Pvt sector.

Most of the individual component production of Tejas has been outsourced to Pvt sector anyway. It's just a question of carrying out the final assembly now.

 

[Ashwin]

So, if we start with the first flight of the first prototype in the middle of next year, then we will follow up with one every six months. By the end of 2027, all of them will be flying, hopefully. If there are no mishaps, then realistically by 2029-30, we can be hopeful of a commitment by the IAF.

The HAL chairman said that the rollout will only happen next year, with certification expected by 2029.

 

[randomradio]

It's likely we'll be fielding multiple types of Loyal wingmen. Each tailored to the type of fighter it'll be MUM-teaming with.

But some drone companion is going to be a given.

For now, there are two drones types for weapons missions. These drones will be part of LCA, MKI and AMCA. Rafale's drones could be different. CATS Warrior is still not an official IAF program. If HAL fails to sell it to the IAF, they plan to offer it to the international market, 'cause I don't believe IUSAV and FUFA are meant for exports right now.

FUFA is too far in the distant future to worry about now. More than likely it'll be coalesced into a 6th gen optionally-manned fighter program.

It will enter development in a few years. IUSAV will need 3 years of flight testing, so FUFA prototype will need to be produced in parallel, which could happen by 2026 or 2027.

Loyal wingmen aren't meant to be kamikaze.

Yeah, so a fighter jet is necessary to use the wingman. But missiles are one-use systems.

US is going full bore with PrSM & GL-Tomahawks in the Pacific. That should tell you something.

It's in parallel to their 2500 fighter-jet plan.

Missiles are secondary to a fighter fleet.

Mk-1A was originally an afterthought - one which is now becoming an increasingly crucial part of the IAF's backbone.

After the 170 Mk-1A, we might very well see additional numbers under a new Mk-1B config with further iterative improvements.

This is our IP. We can build as many as we want.

Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it can't meet Rafale's standards.

India won't be beholden to a PSU - it's the PSU that's beholden to the GoI. Because it's GoI that cuts the cheques.

Sure a Pvt sector competitor capable of building fighters would be great to have, but building Rafale under ToT isn't necessary to achieve that. They can build Mk-1A/Mk-2 Tejas as well. We'll be needing additional production lines anyway - make one under Pvt sector.

Most of the individual component production of Tejas has been outsourced to Pvt sector anyway. It's just a question of carrying out the final assembly now.

You obviously do not know how PSUs work. India is always beholden to PSUs, not the other way round. Or socialism would have worked.

The problem with PSUs is they cannot carry out large scale independent research. For example, Elon Musk can wake up tomorrow and sign for a new project at Spacex overnight. He doesn't need to go to DoD or USG for permission. And look how far ahead he's gone compared to any other govt-owned space company. We see the same advantages with secretive aerospace labs within the ambit of Boeing and LM, like Skunkworks. Since they do not need permission, they keep working on new concept designs all the time, and this keeps them ahead of anybody else.

A PSU is simply incapable of doing that. They need to wait for the MoD's green signal. Their only go-to options are these small projects like CATS or Tank-Ex. They can't do next gen research like GE did with the F-35's engine on their own. It's also why IA wants to get rid of PSUs for their needs in the long term.

In India, DRDO is fine. But the minute a project goes from DRDO to a PSU, it goes to sh!t. It's the reason why we are still importing rifles. PSUs aren't able to increase standards beyond what DRDO's set in the beginning, meaning they are largely incapable of innovation. HAL is somewhat of an outlier 'cause of the level of funding they receive, but it's not enough. We need private companies that can do hardcore research to the same level as DRDO.

 

[Parthu]

It's in parallel to their 2500 fighter-jet plan.

Missiles are secondary to a fighter fleet.

They are diversifying just like we are. They know their procurement can get botched as well. They may not face the same kind of problems we might (like financial), but tech uncertainty is a thing when you are at the cutting edge.

And then there's F35-like mismanagement to worry about.

Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it can't meet Rafale's standards.

We'll be buying additional Rafales anyway. Maybe not exactly as many as we wanted, but we sure as hell aren't gonna stop at 36.

But I doubt it will be through MRFA or any such tender.

You obviously do not know how PSUs work. India is always beholden to PSUs, not the other way round. Or socialism would have worked.

The problem with PSUs is they cannot carry out large scale independent research. For example, Elon Musk can wake up tomorrow and sign for a new project at Spacex overnight. He doesn't need to go to DoD or USG for permission. And look how far ahead he's gone compared to any other govt-owned space company. We see the same advantages with secretive aerospace labs within the ambit of Boeing and LM, like Skunkworks. Since they do not need permission, they keep working on new concept designs all the time, and this keeps them ahead of anybody else.

A PSU is simply incapable of doing that. They need to wait for the MoD's green signal. Their only go-to options are these small projects like CATS or Tank-Ex. They can't do next gen research like GE did with the F-35's engine on their own. It's also why IA wants to get rid of PSUs for their needs in the long term.

In India, DRDO is fine. But the minute a project goes from DRDO to a PSU, it goes to sh!t. It's the reason why we are still importing rifles. PSUs aren't able to increase standards beyond what DRDO's set in the beginning, meaning they are largely incapable of innovation. HAL is somewhat of an outlier 'cause of the level of funding they receive, but it's not enough. We need private companies that can do hardcore research to the same level as DRDO.

There's nobody in India, public or private, that can carry out major aerospace R&D of their own accord without any Govt sanction or funding.

The problem is we're in a capital-poor environment. And aerospace is the most capital-intensive sector there can possibly be.

That's why a small company like SSS can decide to build their own small arms, but even the Tatas with huge resources at hand do not dare venture into their own aircraft design.

Building a Rafale under ToT isn't going to change that, just like building C295 under license isn't going to make Tata a competitor to Airbus.

 

[marich01]

HAL CMD on LCA AF Mk2:Certain parts being manufactured. HAL expects first prototype to roll out by end of 2025. Expects to deliver first aircraft by 2029.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779389129283002525

 

[randomradio]

They are diversifying just like we are. They know their procurement can get botched as well. They may not face the same kind of problems we might (like financial), but tech uncertainty is a thing when you are at the cutting edge.

And then there's F35-like mismanagement to worry about.

Incorrect. They were not allowed to due to the INF Treaty. With China's rise, the treaty became useless.

Regardless, if the USAF is given a choice between missiles and fighter, they will obviousl choose fighters.

We'll be buying additional Rafales anyway. Maybe not exactly as many as we wanted, but we sure as hell aren't gonna stop at 36.

But I doubt it will be through MRFA or any such tender.

MRFA is going through. We don't have a choice. Anything else has a risk of being hijacked. I'd prefer skipping a tender, but the IAF wants the tender. I guess it's 'cause they believe that's the best way to get the best tech, forcing OEMs to compete.

There's nobody in India, public or private, that can carry out major aerospace R&D of their own accord without any Govt sanction or funding.

The problem is we're in a capital-poor environment. And aerospace is the most capital-intensive sector there can possibly be.

That's why a small company like SSS can decide to build their own small arms, but even the Tatas with huge resources at hand do not dare venture into their own aircraft design.

Building a Rafale under ToT isn't going to change that, just like building C295 under license isn't going to make Tata a competitor to Airbus.

That's only for now. It will change in the future. But for that to happen, they need to start somewhere. TATA, Reliance and maybe Mahindra and L&T will start with business jets or similar. But a fighter jet deal is necessary due to the guaranteed nature of tech transfer expected. As the production program nears its end, the private companies will have enough experience to move up to the next level.

You gave the example of SSS, look how quickly they came up with their products versus what OFB's been doing for decades. And there's also Tonbo Imaging. PSUs simply cannot compete.

If MRFA doesn't go through, the next opportunity is somewhere around the 2070-80s, ie, the beginning of the next replacement cycle. Can you imagine how far we will fall behind by then? Otoh, Rafale production by the private sector today means there will be at least one or two new private sector competitors to HAL when the MKI replacement program happens. HAL is incapable of giving us a lead, they are too slow.

You will see the result with FICV pretty early on. OFB is coming up with crap versus the private sector.

 

[randomradio]

HAL CMD on LCA AF Mk2:Certain parts being manufactured. HAL expects first prototype to roll out by end of 2025. Expects to deliver first aircraft by 2029.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1779389129283002525

It's quite ambitious. It's not even in assembly. Rollout by end 2025 means actual rollout is mid 2026. Then 6 months to a year of ground testing. Add some delays and that's mid-end 2027 first flight. So 2029 production, no chance. People need to ask when the first squadron will be raised instead of when the first serial production jet will hit the line, 'cause producing the first jet can start even before the certification process is complete, like they did with Mk1, where the first 2 jets aren't even IOC standard.

 

[Parthu]

Incorrect. They were not allowed to due to the INF Treaty. With China's rise, the treaty became useless.

All the same - the amount of ordnance delivered via ground launched precision strikes is going to increase exponentially as a proportion of the total ordnance expended in a given theatre.

Regardless, if the USAF is given a choice between missiles and fighter, they will obviousl choose fighters.

Anyone would. The problem is, those choices have a cost associated with them. If that cost becomes too much, you have to adjust your procurement accordingly.

MRFA is going through. We don't have a choice. Anything else has a risk of being hijacked. I'd prefer skipping a tender, but the IAF wants the tender. I guess it's 'cause they believe that's the best way to get the best tech, forcing OEMs to compete.

Meh, we'll talk about MRFA when & if it happens.

That's only for now. It will change in the future. But for that to happen, they need to start somewhere. TATA, Reliance and maybe Mahindra and L&T will start with business jets or similar. But a fighter jet deal is necessary due to the guaranteed nature of tech transfer expected. As the production program nears its end, the private companies will have enough experience to move up to the next level.

As I said, producing Rafale is not necessary to achieve this, they can do it via producing Tejas Mk1A/Mk2 as well.

Even in terms of technology, there's nothing you can learn from assembling a Rafale that you can't learn from building a Tejas Mk2.

If at all inculcating a Pvt sector final assembly line for fighters is what you want, it's much less expensive to do so via indigenous IP aircraft rather than foreign.

If we want additional Rafales in the meantime, we can go for G2G batch orders.

You gave the example of SSS, look how quickly they came up with their products versus what OFB's been doing for decades. And there's also Tonbo Imaging. PSUs simply cannot compete.
If MRFA doesn't go through, the next opportunity is somewhere around the 2070-80s, ie, the beginning of the next replacement cycle. Can you imagine how far we will fall behind by then? Otoh, Rafale production by the private sector today means there will be at least one or two new private sector competitors to HAL when the MKI replacement program happens. HAL is incapable of giving us a lead, they are too slow.

You will see the result with FICV pretty early on. OFB is coming up with crap versus the private sector.

Obviously...but we're talking about aircraft here. Any company with a machine shop & AutoCAD can design & prototype firearms.

Designing & building an aircraft is a whole other league. And license-building components does nothing to help you understand the know-why of aircraft design.

Tata has been building Pilatus PC-12s for a long while, yet are nowhere near to designing their own turboprop 9-seater. That will only happen either when they actually make huge investments to that effect to educate & train staff and build infrastructure, or when they acquire an existing company with the required expertise & absorb their workforce.

Either of those avenues require significant capex infusion, which we can't commit because that degree of Private capital simply doesn't exist in India.

And neither of those avenues require you to have a pre-existing assembly line on hand. Actual design and R&D expertise can exist independently of production facilities. Like how ADA exists independently of HAL and Sukhoi exists independent of KnAAPO.

You are conflating two different things here.

 

[Ginvincible]

It's quite ambitious. It's not even in assembly. Rollout by end 2025 means actual rollout is mid 2026. Then 6 months to a year of ground testing. Add some delays and that's mid-end 2027 first flight. So 2029 production, no chance. People need to ask when the first squadron will be raised instead of when the first serial production jet will hit the line, 'cause producing the first jet can start even before the certification process is complete, like they did with Mk1, where the first 2 jets aren't even IOC standard.

the "ambitious timeline" would have been first flight in 2023 as was originally planned.

 

[Sathya]

I think MRFA will happen only if it's required to to done to get engine tech.

And this integration of indian weapons at their cost gives advantage to Rafale when we have paid for ISA. Making it difficult for others.

Even in Rafale we are yet to seen indian weapons integrated. Companies cannot take long time to integrate.

Are capable of integrating our own weapons into Rafale spectra for signal masking?

If we ask for source codes, then we ll have to tinker with spectra..

Then we are asking for Spectra and Engine tech if MRFA is going through. ..


Personally I don't see it happen in a time frame that ll benefit us..

It ll get delayed too long where it's usefulness will decrease for the amount spent.

Like the kamov deal against LUH.

If only TEDBF roll out happens as planned and IAF gets involved in it.

 

[randomradio]

All the same - the amount of ordnance delivered via ground launched precision strikes is going to increase exponentially as a proportion of the total ordnance expended in a given theatre.

So both are necessary.

Anyone would. The problem is, those choices have a cost associated with them. If that cost becomes too much, you have to adjust your procurement accordingly.

Even your opinion gives more importance to aircraft.

As I said, producing Rafale is not necessary to achieve this, they can do it via producing Tejas Mk1A/Mk2 as well.

Even in terms of technology, there's nothing you can learn from assembling a Rafale that you can't learn from building a Tejas Mk2.

If at all inculcating a Pvt sector final assembly line for fighters is what you want, it's much less expensive to do so via indigenous IP aircraft rather than foreign.

If we want additional Rafales in the meantime, we can go for G2G batch orders.

HAL is not interested in giving up LCA, TEDBF and AMCA production to the private sector, and that's the problem.

The private sector is not interested in competing with HAL on their own. Hence the need for a foreign OEM to kickstart the process.

Obviously...but we're talking about aircraft here. Any company with a machine shop & AutoCAD can design & prototype firearms.

Designing & building an aircraft is a whole other league. And license-building components does nothing to help you understand the know-why of aircraft design.

Tata has been building Pilatus PC-12s for a long while, yet are nowhere near to designing their own turboprop 9-seater. That will only happen either when they actually make huge investments to that effect to educate & train staff and build infrastructure, or when they acquire an existing company with the required expertise & absorb their workforce.

Either of those avenues require significant capex infusion, which we can't commit because that degree of Private capital simply doesn't exist in India.

And neither of those avenues require you to have a pre-existing assembly line on hand. Actual design and R&D expertise can exist independently of production facilities. Like how ADA exists independently of HAL and Sukhoi exists independent of KnAAPO.

You are conflating two different things here.

PC-12? Dude, seriously? It's too low tech, not to mention the fact that TATA is just a subcontractor, not a lead integrator. The difference between the two positions is like that of between a CEO and a middle rung manager. All a subcontractor has to do is obey.

You are the one conflating two different things here. There is currently no ownership of a program by a private enterprise in aerospace in India, it's all controlled by PSUs that are wholly inefficient. It's fine today, when we are a generation or two behind in global aerospace tech anyway. But that's not gonna cut it in just 15-20 years.

Capex infusion will come as the market matures. The US market is 3000 aircraft every single year. In just 10 more years, India's aviation market will also become extremely big, and we won't have a single domestic brand that can compete with the likes of Falcon and Gulfstream. It's practically impossible for a PSU to compete in such an environment, which is why the private sector has to take over.

And this is for the overall market. With LCA, TEDBF and AMCA going to HAL, we need MRFA for the private sector. HAL has already taken over the helicopter industry, so we are going to see imports for next gen helicopters in 20 years when the new Mi-17s come up for replacement. Right now, the govt is using money as an excuse to curb imports, but that won't be the case in the future.

 

[randomradio]

the "ambitious timeline" would have been first flight in 2023 as was originally planned.

"Realistic timeline" doesn't exist in the dictionary of PSUs.

Tracking The Tejas: How The Tejas Mk2 Design Became The Medium Weight Fighter | Delhi Defence Review

delhidefencereview.com

ADA is sanguine on first flight of MWF by end of 2021 or early 2022

 

[Parthu]

So both are necessary.

Yep. Never said we don't need DPSAs.

Even your opinion gives more importance to aircraft.

Which ensures we continue to buy batches of Rafales.

HAL is not interested in giving up LCA, TEDBF and AMCA production to the private sector, and that's the problem.

The private sector is not interested in competing with HAL on their own. Hence the need for a foreign OEM to kickstart the process.

HAL cannot give up something that doesn't yet exist. We won't be closing a HAL line to open a Pvt one. If GoI wants a line under Pvt ownership they can make it happen.

If HAL is capable of lobbying GoI to make sure they keep all the Tejas lines, they can lobby them for the Rafale line as well.

Whether we're building a ADA design or Dassault design has no bearing on this decision.

PC-12? Dude, seriously? It's too low tech, not to mention the fact that TATA is just a subcontractor, not a lead integrator.

They are going to be lead integrator for C295. Won't allow them to design their own aircraft. Otherwise Airbus is an idiot for creating a competitor.

At best, the infrastructure they're building will let them use it for testing their designs in the future, nothing more.

But then they can test them at NAL facilities as well, nothing stopping them.

You are the one conflating two different things here. There is currently no ownership of a program by a private enterprise in aerospace in India, it's all controlled by PSUs that are wholly inefficient. It's fine today, when we are a generation or two behind in global aerospace tech anyway. But that's not gonna cut it in just 15-20 years.

Capex infusion will come as the market matures. The US market is 3000 aircraft every single year. In just 10 more years, India's aviation market will also become extremely big, and we won't have a single domestic brand that can compete with the likes of Falcon and Gulfstream. It's practically impossible for a PSU to compete in such an environment, which is why the private sector has to take over.

And this is for the overall market. With LCA, TEDBF and AMCA going to HAL, we need MRFA for the private sector. HAL has already taken over the helicopter industry, so we are going to see imports for next gen helicopters in 20 years when the new Mi-17s come up for replacement. Right now, the govt is using money as an excuse to curb imports, but that won't be the case in the future.

So when the capital becomes affordable, our companies will naturally take up R&D investments.

What does having a pre-existing final assembly line have to do with it?

The amount of risk & sunk cost in an assembly line is miniscule, as you'd only build it if and when you have assured orders on hand.

Building Rafale (or Tejas) under ToT will help you create a Pvt-owned KnAAPO.

Not a Pvt-owned Sukhoi.

One has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Ashwin]

 

[noob]

View attachment 33228

Man tejas mk2 will look sexy af with those Cannards can't wait to see it fly in IAF colours

 

[Rajput Lion]

Man tejas mk2 will look sexy af with those Cannards can't wait to see it fly in IAF colours

Except kinematics and max payload, it's going to be even superior than Rafale F3R-I that we've got. Absolutely can't wait for its first flight and then quick induction into IAF.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Except kinematics and max payload, it's going to be even superior than Rafale F3R-I that we've got. Absolutely can't wait for its first flight and then quick induction into IAF.

Haven't you realised yet that the Rafale is a magicraft?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Except kinematics and max payload, it's going to be even superior than Rafale F3R-I that we've got. Absolutely can't wait for its first flight and then quick induction into IAF.

This statement wouldn't have been embarassing if Tejas Mk2 was actually flying today.

 

[Rajput Lion]

This statement wouldn't have been embarassing if Tejas Mk2 was actually flying today.

That statement was based upon the specs/avionics/EW we've planned for MK2. Of course, since we already have Rafale operational while MK2 still being a paper plane makes the point moot, but still.

In fact, I would say that specs of MK2 are even more advance than what Dassault has planned for Rafale F4.2/3. Only from F5 version onwards, Rafale will reach MK2 levels of avionics.

Haven't you realised yet that the Rafale is a magicraft?

Of course it's a great aircraft and that's why IAF is so enamoured with it. But the planned avionics for LCA MK2 like GaN radar, GaN EW suite etc. are more advance than Rafale F3R-I is also a fact. Rafale would need F5 variant just to draw level, IMO.

 

[Hydra]

Haven't you realised yet that the Rafale is a magicraft?

That fellow didn't get the sarcasm.