Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Have you ever considered that that 'holier than thou attitude' is exactly the way you come across sometimes? And it certainly extends to more than that with the likes of randomradio and jetray.

I think if China invaded India outright, as Russia has with Ukraine, the Western world would cease co-operation with China though, so maybe it's not as equivalent as you think. And they would definitely condemn the action at the UN, rather than abstaining.
We don't, what we say as holier than the thou is, we don't do our selves, we give it as example of Europe/US system. As we generally say, for example...

If China invaded India, India wouldn't demand US / Europe to do anything on our behalf, that's the difference when it comes to Indian people's living philosophy. Jio aur jine do (Live and let others live).

What US /Europe do on their own behalf is for them to decide, not us. Most of historical blunders have happened for the zeal to somehow become a party to a dispute when not required. To have patience & self belief is the gold standard.
 
Home made drone:

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We don't, what we say as holier than the thou is, we don't do our selves, we give it as example of Europe/US system. As we generally say, for example...

If China invaded India, India wouldn't demand US / Europe to do anything on our behalf, that's the difference when it comes to Indian people's living philosophy. Jio aur jine do (Live and let others live).

What US /Europe do on their own behalf is for them to decide, not us.
You think you don't do it yourselves but you do, that's the problem. Your accusations of hypocrisy are hypocrisy themselves.

It's not a matter of demanding it, nobody can demand such things, but you would probably like it and ask for it, AND you would get it. Not direct intervention, but certainly sanctions and a condemnation at the UN as a minimum, as has been the case in previous Chinese wars with India, even during times when relations were worse.
 
The UN isn't a co-operation of any sort, since all nations are present.

Given Putin's position and goals, there is no diplomatic solution, anymore than there would be if China wanted to steal half of India. People suggesting diplomatic solutions are living in cloud cuckoo land, it's like suggesting a diplomatic solution with Hitler in 1942. I think their real goal is simply to avoid taking a realistic position, because they know it involves picking a side.
That's what Europe was doing to India when China had captured gray zone lands in Ladakh region.
 
You think you don't do it yourselves but you do, that's the problem. Your accusations of hypocrisy are hypocrisy themselves.

It's not a matter of demanding it, nobody can demand such things, but you would probably like it and ask for it, AND you would get it. Not direct intervention, but certainly sanctions and a condemnation at the UN as a minimum, as has been the case in previous Chinese wars with India, even during times when relations were worse.
Refer to post 16105 where we didn't want, still Europe was giving advice that we need to trade with PRC China instead of banning their business interests, and that was the key to reducing the tensions. And Europe was giving the feelers that somehow we were responsible if Indo-Chinese relations were to deteriorate further, reason being India banning Chinese business interests. Where did that knowledge pool go when Russia attacked Ukraine?
 
You think you don't do it yourselves but you do, that's the problem. Your accusations of hypocrisy are hypocrisy themselves.

It's not a matter of demanding it, nobody can demand such things, but you would probably like it and ask for it, AND you would get it. Not direct intervention, but certainly sanctions and a condemnation at the UN as a minimum, as has been the case in previous Chinese wars with India, even during times when relations were worse.
Again what you think as Indians calling Europe as Hippocrates is not what we say originally. What we say is an example where we show Europe fitting perfectly in past and present.
That's what Europe was doing to India when China had captured gray zone lands in Ladakh region.
"When rules-based order was under challenge in Asia, the advice we got from Europe is - do more trade. At least we are not giving you that advice...," the minister was quoted by ANI as saying.
 
Again what you think as Indians calling Europe as Hippocrates is not what we say originally. What we say is an example where we show Europe fitting perfectly in past and present.

"When rules-based order was under challenge in Asia, the advice we got from Europe is - do more trade. At least we are not giving you that advice...," the minister was quoted by ANI as saying.
What incident is he referring to? China LOAC? Yeah, they should have condemned China, but with respect to that, the exact border position between the countries isn't that clear cut historically, so it's not really directly comparable to Russia vs Ukraine, where Russia in >100km inside Ukraine's borders, and has been even further in an all out invasion. It would only be equivalent if China had been outside Delhi, shelling it and was firing dozens of cruise missiles at you every few days.
Will wait for the clarity on the new world order which everybody nowadays keep harping about.

When he says 'Russian interests', he really means is the interests of Putin's regime.
 
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What incident is he referring to?

When he says 'Russian interests', he really means is the interests of Putin's regime.
When China invaded gray areas few years back, European diplomats had been advising Delhi to not militarily engage China or ban of Chinese interests in India. Rather they were advising India to increase trade with China & enter in economic negotiations with China which as per their information was better than armed conflict considering there were global slowdown affecting European economy (& global) due to COVID.

Hence Indian foreign minister replied publicly that when roles were reversed, we weren't advising Ukraine to forget piece of their land & engage in trade with Russia.

You have been to this forum for so long and you don't know minister's said remarks video?
 
When China invaded gray areas few years back, European diplomats had been advising Delhi to not militarily engage China or ban of Chinese interests in India. Rather they were advising India to increase trade with China & enter in economic negotiations with China which as per their information was better than armed conflict considering there were global slowdown affecting European economy (& global) due to COVID.

Hence Indian foreign minister replied publicly that when roles were reversed, we weren't advising Ukraine to forget piece of their land & engage in trade with Russia.

You have been to this forum for so long and you don't know minister's said remarks video?
It's bad that they didn't condemn China, but it's not really an equivalent comparison. China never conducted a flat-out invasion of India, pushing over 100km inside its border, while shelling its capital and firing dozens of cruise missiles at it every day. As regards exact border lines, it's complicated there historically and TBH I don't fully understand all the ins and outs of it even replying to you now. Ukraine however, is a massive and total invasion across well established borders.
 
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The Molotov Ribbentrop Pact followed the Munich pact. It didn't precede it but then what's new in this propaganda? After all the entire thread is littered with it. In fact the entire thread itself is one propaganda thread. One more or less hardly makes a difference.
The Molotov Ribbentrop Pact was not the first pact Soviet Union signed to enable German rearmament, though previous pacts were mostly prior to Nazis coming to power.
 
It's bad that they didn't condemn China, but it's not really an equivalent comparison. China never conducted a flat-out invasion of India, pushing over 100km inside its border, while shelling its capital and firing dozens of cruise missiles at it every day. As regards exact border lines, it's complicated there historically and TBH I don't fully understand all the ins and outs of it even replying to you now. Ukraine however, is a massive and total invasion across well established borders.
Changing borders using force isn't against rules/value based order? And here we are thinking if European capitals are choosy in what attack can be categorised against value based order and what not!

And for the record, nobody agrees where the perception of LAC or border is, that doesn't mean countries start using force to capture land. That's lame logic.
 
A French analysis of Russian air power in action in Ukraine that I translate:

Air power with non-determining effects

The war in Ukraine remains primarily a land confrontation in which naval and air power are "adjuvants" but are not in themselves decisive on the fate of the weapons. At first sight, with more than 300 combat aircraft and as many helicopters deployed, often quite modern, the Russian aerospace forces (the VKS) had the resources to weigh in the conflict, facing a Ukrainian air force with barely a hundred aircraft and AD systems that were not only well known to the Russians but also ageing. This was not the case, except for the salvos of stand-off missile strikes, which had no coercive effect.

In fact, despite occasional peaks of 200-300 sorties per day during the siege of Mariupol or the push against Donbass in May, Russian air activity averaged 140 sorties/day from late February to October (or 34,000 sorties, a volume equivalent to the Russian air campaign in Syria). According to Tom Cooper, an air warfare specialist, they even fell to 120 in December 2022 and would stagnate today at around 100 despite the launch of the Russian offensive. According to the estimate given by the RUSI in a remarkable study of November 2022, this is just the number needed to cover Ukrainian space in one day. Knowing that part of the sorties counted are necessarily dedicated to close support and interdiction, the VKS are therefore far below the minimum activity required. Their posture is in fact very largely defensive, even passive or anaemic.

1. Russians fail to establish air superiority

For a year, the air environment has been the object of an active and relentless confrontation between the two belligerents, a fragile balance that the Ukraine has managed to achieve by its intelligent challenge of the overwhelming Russian numerical and technical advantage in this area. Dispersal of means, "shoot and scoot" procedures for DA batteries, low-level and night flights below radar coverage, summary but effective strikes on Russian air bases, courage, innovation and tenacity...: the Ukrainians exploited to the maximum all known procedures to make their fighter and anti-aircraft systems a credible threat to the precious modernised aircraft of the Russian fleet. The Ukrainian air force is too weak to defeat its adversary, but it was able to take it by surprise, inflict constant attrition, restrict its freedom of action and finally dissuade it from engaging too deeply in its airspace, thus repeating the concept of "Fleet in being" dear to the sailors.

As described by RUSI, at the beginning of the war, the VKS ventured up to 300 kilometres into Ukrainian territory, managing to neutralise Ukrainian defences through electronic warfare and hit around 100 targets. However, by March 2022, they were forced to retreat behind their front line and even to operate only within the Federation's borders. The attrition of the Russian air superiority fleet appears negligible (less than ten Su-30SM and Su-35S shot down out of a fleet of about 250 aircraft of these types) to justify such a withdrawal. These losses, which affected the most modern Russian fighters, took the VKS, who considered their opponents incapable of mounting any resistance, by surprise. After the initial disappointment, the Russians demonstrated a capacity for tactical adaptation, in terms of aircraft armament, composition of their formations (introduction of Mig-31BMs and formation of pairs of Su-30SMs and Su-35Ss for the neutralisation of anti-aircraft defences (Suppression of Enemy Air Defence, SEAD) and flight profiles (night, low altitude), but they were never able to increase their power significantly to establish real air superiority.

How can such an inability be explained? In fact, this posture seems to be the product not only of the effects of the Ukrainian resistance but also of a very imperfect modernisation of the Russian air arm, which has only partially succeeded in upgrading its material capabilities, and which has above all failed to reform its modes of action, its procedures, and its thinking itself.

The withdrawal of the VKS to a safe distance denotes a return by default to a position of comfort, i.e. to the Soviet conception of air operations. In this scheme, air superiority is understood as fire superiority achieved in the air. The difference is not only semantic. It implies that aviation is only an additional strike vector, which certainly has specific characteristics and its own techniques, but which does not in itself justify that it be considered in an autonomous way in relation to the whole of the operations or to the rules of the operational art which are above all terrestrial. In this way, air superiority is first and foremost a joint effort that does not necessarily fall primarily to the air forces themselves, and, consequently, it is not justified as an attempt to control a manoeuvring space ("Master of the Air") but as an effort to saturate and envelop the adversary by fire. From this perspective, air superiority, and air interdiction in particular, is akin to counter-battery action against similar adversary capabilities. The air force is therefore, on the one hand, only a complementary firepower to the ballistic arsenal for deep strikes against C2s, airfields, strategic anti-aircraft systems, an arsenal considered more reliable and penetrating than the air force; on the other hand, it is a complement to the Russian anti-aircraft defences, whose protection must be ensured and whose dead spots must be compensated. Concretely, in hierarchical terms, the air and anti-aircraft armies did not have their own theatre of operations but were part of the Military District plan, whose command was in fact, if not in law, a land-based one. In fact, despite great ambitions before the war, especially in a strategic role, the Russian air force did not succeed in overcoming this condition of airborne artillery, having to evolve strictly at a safe distance within the 'firing range' or 'bastion' that the ground-air defence provided.

Such a design has made the VKS structurally unprepared for classic Western air power missions. This is the case of the SEAD. In the Russian logic, it appears contradictory to oppose anti-aircraft systems with aircraft against which they were designed. The Russians therefore prefer to use gun and rocket artillery, the missile arsenal as well as electronic warfare to pierce "air corridors" allowing the introduction of aviation. The purely air dimension of the Russian SEAD thus appears as a last resort, either from a safe distance in addition to the ground salvo (which presupposes good integration), or in a tactical and ad hoc manner, to ensure the self-protection of the aircraft once they have been engaged and to enable them to reach their objectives. The Russians have therefore not developed a specific concept of operations for SEAD nor have they developed complex training to conduct it, the latter consisting mainly of reactive SEAD and defensive aircraft countermeasures.

Finally, technically, the Russians have never designed specialised aircraft for this mission. They have favoured the development of high-performance missiles for stand-off firing from their heavy carriers (Tu-160, Tu-95, Tu-22), allowing them to upgrade these (old) platforms and to maintain a large stock of unguided and less expensive bombs and rockets for the Su-27 derivatives (Su-30, 35, 34). Admittedly, the Russians have responded by arming their Su-30SM and Su-35S with powerful Kh-31P and Kh-58 anti-radar missiles, which have caused serious losses among Ukrainian tactical air defence systems, but the aircraft themselves were primarily designed for an interception role. They do not have sufficiently capable target designation systems to complement their radar to hit moving targets. This situation makes the Su-34 the only aircraft that is sufficiently modern and versatile, in terms of sensors, night capabilities and arsenal carried (bombs and missiles) to carry out SEAD but also interdiction missions and even close air support. Its status as a "Swiss Army knife" forces the Russians to use it primarily to make up for the deficit in ground firepower rather than devoting it to air superiority. As a result, it suffered significant losses (twenty aircraft, 15% of the fleet), caused in particular by its indiscriminate use at very low altitude to replace the Su-25.

Indeed, these shortcomings paradoxically force these aircraft to fly at lower altitudes, within range of the Ukrainian short-range ground-air defence. Alternatively, they force the VKS to over-consume their ballistic and cruise missile arsenal as they do now. Reports of Ukrainian anti-aircraft batteries being destroyed by Toshka-U and Iskander surface missiles thus appear credible: lacking aviation and artillery range, they are the only means sufficiently responsive, accurate and powerful to strike in tactical and operational depth.
 
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2. Ineffective close air support

Despite this inability to establish air superiority, one would have thought that Russian forces would be able to support their force. However, with some 29 Su-25s destroyed (15% of the fleet) and, more importantly, 32 Ka-52 helicopters (20% of the fleet) and 11 Mi-28s (9-12%) neutralised, the impact of the Ukrainian ban was far more severe on the frontline aviation. This attrition led to a halt in helicopter penetrations from April onwards and caused the Su-25s to operate at very low altitude (less than 100 metres), finally forcing these aircraft to adopt a 'bell-shaped' firing pattern with little accuracy behind their line.

Beyond the performance of the aircraft, which is itself open to question, it is the very process of air-to-surface integration (ASI) that is deficient because it is over-centralised, over-hierarchical and under-equipped. The structure of this ASI, its procedures, and the qualification of its personnel have only been marginally developed and improved since the Chechen war, with some Russian authors even pointing to a regression, as the close support manuals have not even been updated according to the Syrian experience. On paper, this integration would look quite similar to that of the West, with an air control chain interfaced with the ground fire control chain, resulting in 'air control points' (PUANs) equivalent to our Joint Terminal Attack Controllers (JTACs), integrated into the supported unit and responsible for controlling the strike. According to the Russians, in theory, such an organisation would take between 20 and 70 minutes to identify, validate and strike a target, depending on whether the air asset is already 'attached' to the command of the supported army. However, this is purely theoretical and impossible to achieve. The personnel of these NAPUs would be too few in number, the areas of responsibility too large and not well defined. The material equipment of these teams would also be very inadequate, especially in terms of the indispensable means of communication, which are obsolete and vulnerable to electronic warfare. Finally, the method of designating targets is laser pointing, which is known to have its advantages but also its limitations: short range, vulnerability of the designator, etc. Coordinate strikes are therefore not practised. UAVs could have corrected this situation, as envisaged by the Russians, but there are not enough of them and the systems that would allow them to be integrated into the NAPUs do not yet exist.

More seriously, the ASI requires excellent airspace management, 3D coordination between support aviation and air defence. However, that of the Russians would be problematic, to say the least: lack of means of identifying friend or foe, of joint training, and laborious, overly vertical system architectures. The drastic rules of engagement that forced the use of Russian AD systems at the beginning of the invasion, based on the presumption that all detected aircraft were Russian, bear witness to this. This was the only way to prevent too much fratricide. When these systems were more widely used, it is likely that staffs came up with spatial deconfliction measures that prohibited either of these means, as in the Ukrainian case.

However, these failures do not fully explain why the volume of Russian activity has dropped significantly since the beginning of the campaign.

3. Lack of pilots and uncertain availability of aircraft

Finally, the lack of qualified pilots remains one of the VKS's biggest Achilles' heels. According to RUSI, Ukrainian assessments concluded that due to the limited number of flying hours and the practice of unit training, the VKS entered the conflict with less than 100 fully trained and active pilots. Coupled with a military culture that assigns the most dangerous missions to the most experienced crews, attrition within the VKS disproportionately affected this cadre, reducing the force's overall effectiveness and its ability to train new pilots. The lack of a source makes the assertion unverifiable, but it is credible. The volume of flying hours, a classic metric for understanding - albeit imperfectly - the level of competence of the air force, will have generally been around 100 hours for combat aircraft crews, far from the 180-hour standard of NATO forces. The figure in fact masks great disparities between the military districts: pilots in the Western District were the most favoured but those in the Central District flew, on average, no more than 50 hours in 2020. The aeronautical specialist Guy Plopsky estimated before the war that the quality of Russian training was difficult to assess but he insisted on the weakness of exercises using guided munitions. However, the 66 helicopters and 67 aircraft shot down (according to Oryx) resulted in the deaths of at least 127 aircrew, including 105 officers, according to the BBC/Mediazone team.

The maintenance of the fleet is also undoubtedly a challenge. First of all, the aircraft, especially their engines, are complex to maintain. It is known that the Su-30MKIs have a fairly high MCO cost and that the availability of the fleet acquired by New Delhi is struggling to exceed 50%. An article in Armeyskiy Sbornik, the Russian Army newspaper, discusses the shortcomings of the maintenance and repair system for aeronautical equipment: lack of spare parts, inconsistent outsourcing, lack of qualification and downsizing, and obsolete documentation. The authors recognise that "the transition of the maintenance system to warfare mode within the timeframe [...] is too complex". However, at the same time, VKS aircraft are stored in the open air on their bases. Their equipment, in particular their electronics, is not protected from the rigours of the climate (it is estimated that the proper MCO of a Rafale requires its storage in an air-conditioned hangar). These conditions of use must logically lead to a very (too) important MCO effort on the part of the VKS to maintain a satisfactory operational availability rate. Is this effort sustainable over time at this high intensity (e.g. in terms of spare parts stocks, replacement engines)? The answer is uncertain, but it would be logical that the decrease in the number of sorties is partly attributable to this factor.
 
4. A strategic air campaign exhausting missile inventories for ill-conceived and ultimately limited effects

From this double failure, in air superiority as well as in close support, it appears that the Russian strategic strike campaign on Ukrainian cities and critical infrastructures is the result of a frustration, a lack of imagination and an incapacity of the Russians to really be able to articulate their air power at the end of the ground operations. They are therefore reduced to striking static and imposing targets. The VKS have never practised large-scale targeting like the West. Admittedly, they have demonstrated mastery of deliberate targeting on fixed targets at a technical level - although the process is reportedly not very unified. However, the frequent changes of priority target systems (fuel, communication lines, etc.) or the dispersal of strikes that characterised their campaign up to the efforts to destroy the Ukrainian power system indicate a clear lack of mastery of an effects-based interdiction air strategy. Such a strategy would have been necessary given the size of the country, the amount of infrastructure to be targeted and the Ukrainian capacity to repair and regenerate destroyed equipment.

Nor do the Russians have the ISR capabilities to target relocatable targets of opportunity (e.g. tactical HQs) or linked to infrastructure activities. Given the significant ground-to-air defences on both sides, airborne sensors, such as the forty or so Il-20s (ELINT) and Il-22s (EW), do not constitute the main ISR resource. Space-based intelligence, on the other hand, is decisive. In this respect, the Russians are largely blind and deaf. It is very likely that Moscow does not have a "sovereign core" - i.e. its own governmental means - of image-based intelligence capabilities (ROIM), given the obsolescence or even the end of activity of its Persona satellites (the last one was launched in 2015), The failure of the Razbeg mini-satellites to be deployed and the delay of the two major replacement programmes, the Razdan, which is supposed to provide an equivalent to the famous American KH-11 (the world's most sophisticated reconnaissance satellite), and the Berkut mini-satellite constellation.
The commercial constellations Resurs-P and Canopus only have a resolution of more than one metre, allowing for example the detection of vehicle clusters but not their characterisation. As for the radar ROIM, it is fed by a single Kondor-E, also of metric resolution. The ROEM situation would be somewhat better, but the perception capabilities of the LOTOS-S satellites would not be much better than those of their Cold War Tselina predecessors.

This strike campaign does not seem tenable with the arsenals Russia has. It requires Russia to maintain its salvos over time in the hope of achieving cumulative effects on Ukrainian will and industrial potential, if it cannot bring about its collapse through systematic and extensive targeting. Since mid-May, their rate of fire has dropped drastically, from an average of twenty-four shots per day in the first months of the war to still powerful but jerky salvos (about every fortnight).

The Russians were thus forced early on to resort to a 'mix' of salvos by combining old ballistic missiles (Toshka-U), several thousand Iranian Shahed-136 and Mohajer-6 drones, and anti-ship (Kh-22, Kh-32, P-800), and anti-aircraft (5V55 of the S300V1) missiles. In this respect, it is the 5V55 stockpile, with its powerful warhead but low accuracy in ground-to-ground firing, that seems to embody the "safety mattress" of Russian salvos, since the Russians still have several thousand of them. Here again, however, it remains to be seen how well Russia was able to preserve these missiles. They have been preserved for ten years, although they have sometimes used warhead-less or completely outdated delivery systems, presumably to saturate the Ukrainian defence.

With regard to the sustainability of such a campaign, two major constraints exist. The first is the dual nature of its most modern systems (Iskander, Kh-101, Kalibr). Russia generally believes that they are part of its deterrence against NATO and therefore cannot be totally exhausted. However, some strikes show that this is not an intangible principle. For example, the use of Kh-47 Kinzhal hypersonic missiles to strike electrical stations seems inconsiderate in view of their rarity (about ten used out of fifty) and their centrality in piercing and disorganising NATO's anti-aircraft and anti-missile defences. The second constraint is of course the rate of production and the state of stocks. In this area, industrial data compiled by Pavel Luzin, an expert on Russian military issues at the Jamestown Foundation, indicates an annual production of about 225 missiles (50 Iskander, 50 Oniks, 20 Kh-32 and about a hundred Kalibr, Kh-101, 9M729, the last three being constrained by the availability of the same engine, the TRDD-50). The RUSI, for its part, mentions a production of 72 Iskanders per year (six per month). Another approach is that of the CAR (Conflict Armament Research Group), and particularly John Hardie, for the Long War Journal, who have compiled the serial numbers found on Kh-101 missile wrecks to deduce production sequences. From April 2018 to November 2022, Russia would have produced 402 Kh-101s, or about 1 missile every four days, about 80-90 missiles produced per year. Let us also note the Russian pre-war communiqués, establishing a production of Kalibr around 100 per year, which the Ukrainians seem to confirm with the statement of General Skibitsky (intelligence), estimating the production at 240 Kh-101 and 120 Kalibr for the year 2022. In this area, the Ukrainians are both more optimistic about pre-war stocks (only 144 Kh-101, 500 Kalibr, 900 Iskander for a total of 1,887 'modern' missiles for surface strike) and more pessimistic about the ramp-up of Russian production: 30 Kh-101 and 20 Kalibr in one month. A major unknown is the volume of TRDD-50 engines produced and the trade-off that Moscow makes between air (Kh-101) and naval (Kalibr of different qualifications) cruise missiles. The fact remains that with more than 3,000 missiles fired in Ukraine in barely a year, it is certain that the Russian arsenal is under extreme strain. Stockpiles of old missiles and the intensification of production rates will not reduce this tension, but simply prolong the engagement at the current intensity.
 
It's bad that they didn't condemn China, but it's not really an equivalent comparison. China never conducted a flat-out invasion of India, pushing over 100km inside its border, while shelling its capital and firing dozens of cruise missiles at it every day. As regards exact border lines, it's complicated there historically and TBH I don't fully understand all the ins and outs of it even replying to you now. Ukraine however, is a massive and total invasion across well established borders.
hyprocrisy as usual , west will mollycoddle with china as long their interests are not affected but they expect others to do what they want.

Let west impose complete sanctions on china like they have done on russia, they should practice what they preach.
 
hyprocrisy as usual , west will mollycoddle with china as long their interests are not affected but they expect others to do what they want.

Let west impose complete sanctions on china like they have done on russia, they should practice what they preach.
Changing borders using force isn't against rules/value based order? And here we are thinking if European capitals are choosy in what attack can be categorised against value based order and what not!
It is, but if I asked them, they'd probably argue the border was always there. How much did they come over the line?
And for the record, nobody agrees where the perception of LAC or border is, that doesn't mean countries start using force to capture land. That's lame logic.
That's my point really. I don't condone the use of force, but it isn't the same as Ukraine, where the borders were agreed and well recognised, and were breached by >100km from several directions.

If China does anything close to what Russia has done to Ukraine to India, we will definitely condemn them, but a border skirmish just isn't the same as a full-blown invasion.

You forget that Russian invaded Crimea in 2014, even that was a much larger breach of territorial sovereignty, but we didn't appeal to India then, and many of you lot harped on righteously as if Russia had done no wrong as usual. Ditto for Georgia in 2008. The Ladakh incident is far less than either of those by any measure.
 
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hyprocrisy as usual , west will mollycoddle with china as long their interests are not affected but they expect others to do what they want.

Let west impose complete sanctions on china like they have done on russia, they should practice what they preach.
Nope, it just isn't equivalent. if China does anything close to what Russia has done to Ukraine to India, we will definitely condemn them, but a border skirmish just isn't the same as a full-blown invasion.

You forget that Russian invaded Crimea in 2014, even that was a much larger breach of territorial sovereignty, but we didn't appeal to India then, and many of you lot harped on righteously as if Russia had done no wrong as usual.
 
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