MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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It retains the aerodynamics of a ski racer in a snowplough.
It depends on what sort of requirements the IN expects MRCBF to fulfill though.
Do they want more payload and more electricity with the new engine or if they want performance. I think it's the former because they are not expecting the TEDBF to perform like the Rafale either, it will have more range, payload and electrical power than the Rafale's current configuration, but not the same top speed, G and turn performance.
Indranil and Satya are looking at the wrong places. A tender with a lot of competitors is a good way to ensure the MoD has the advantage. The more the better. Plus it gives us a proper roadmap to what pretty much everyone outside China and India are doing and planning to do over the next 20-30 years. Since we plan on operating single and twin engine jets, it's a good idea to get roadmaps for both types, including light, medium and heavy weight categories. The number of participants is deliberate.
Will the light or heavy win? Unlikely. Will the IAF and Indian MIC benefit from the information transfer? Definitely. People forget that a lot of private companies are going to be collaborating with foreign OEMs, so it makes sense to get as many companies as possible gain experience in this game.
DRAL will be the lead integrator, most of the production will be done through subcontractors. For example, if Rafale wins, we could see HAL as the main engine manufacturer.
www.safran-group.com
Under the terms of the MOU, HAL and Safran Aircraft Engines intend to explore opportunities to assemble the Safran M88 engine and manufacture components for the engine with HAL for additional batch of Rafale Aircraft for India and for any aircraft manufactured in India by HAL fitted with M88.
Will the light or heavy win? Unlikely. Will the IAF and Indian MIC benefit from the information transfer? Definitely. People forget that a lot of private companies are going to be collaborating with foreign OEMs, so it makes sense to get as many companies as possible gain experience in this game.
DRAL will be the lead integrator, most of the production will be done through subcontractors. For example, if Rafale wins, we could see HAL as the main engine manufacturer.
Safran and HAL sign MoU on military engine collaboration
Your TDEBF will be heavier than you expect and will have less range than the Rafale.
So let's get this right. IAF undertook a brochure collecting activity which lasted a good 6-7 yrs which ended around 2012.
10 yrs later they pretty much check out the same fighters for another brochure collection activity.
And the entire exercise is designed to give maximum exposure to different Indian vendors to, you said it, more brochures & how to curate them!
The assumption already is Rafale would be the winner & the rest of the competitors are expected to just go home & suck their thumbs.
Perhaps we forget if we get one disgruntled OEM who can always move the Courts which some have in the past jamming up the entire procurement process indefinitely, we're screwed indefinitely.
10 yrs later they pretty much check out the same fighters for another brochure collection activity.
And the entire exercise is designed to give maximum exposure to different Indian vendors to, you said it, more brochures & how to curate them!
The assumption already is Rafale would be the winner & the rest of the competitors are expected to just go home & suck their thumbs.
Perhaps we forget if we get one disgruntled OEM who can always move the Courts which some have in the past jamming up the entire procurement process indefinitely, we're screwed indefinitely.
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They have actually prepared for it going overweight, hence dry thrust of 75KN for an MTOW of 26T. And the empty weight specs also seem to be modest. Very likely to be 11.5T, which is already 1.2T more than Rafale-M.
Plus either Dassault or Boeing's help will become available, based on who wins MRCBF, long before TEDBF's design is frozen. As of 3 months ago, it's only finished concept design and has entered preliminary design. So I'm sure enough assistance will be provided during detailed design, flight testing and LSP for weight control.
For many of those thumb-sucking competitors, the IAF tender is still a gateway to other contracts in smaller countries that can't test to the same level as the IAF. You don't necessarily have to win India's Top Model to be recognised. Information from such tenders is also used as leverage when dealing with such countries. Once the shortlists are out, diplomats from across the world end up talking to the MoD and forces, plus inviting them to their countries to speak to their experts, and so on. It's the privilege of a major importer.
Plus 10 years is enough time for new technologies to come in. For example, in 2009 the Rafale had a roadmap until 2030-35, ie, F4.2, and we are now in that place. But now Dassault has a roadmap until 2045-50, which the IAF may not necessarily be aware of completely at this time. The information deficit gets worse with other countries where we have had limited contact after 2009. We may have some information about Russia and France, but very little about the rest of Europe and America. The tender will give us access to the information about those technologies.
We are the customer, they can go to court if they are not happy and if they want to embarrass themselves. Even Rafale has to win via merit. Betting on the Rafale is like betting on the winning horse, there's nothing to it, really. Other potential contenders are focused elsewhere, so it has no real competition.
Plus 10 years is enough time for new technologies to come in. For example, in 2009 the Rafale had a roadmap until 2030-35, ie, F4.2, and we are now in that place. But now Dassault has a roadmap until 2045-50, which the IAF may not necessarily be aware of completely at this time. The information deficit gets worse with other countries where we have had limited contact after 2009. We may have some information about Russia and France, but very little about the rest of Europe and America. The tender will give us access to the information about those technologies.
We are the customer, they can go to court if they are not happy and if they want to embarrass themselves. Even Rafale has to win via merit. Betting on the Rafale is like betting on the winning horse, there's nothing to it, really. Other potential contenders are focused elsewhere, so it has no real competition.
Which brings me back to my original contention that the whole MMRCA 2.0 / MRFA tender is a sham or a scam. There was never any need for a tender given that we've already paid Dassault for 2 bases to house a minimum 72 Rafales.
Proof of it was IAF being fast asleep at the wheel since 2015 - 16 waking up only towards the end of December '21.
All we need to do is order the remaining 36 or 54 & close the book on it till the end of the decade post which we can review our indigenous programs to see if an additional 36 is needed depending on how far our programs have slipped behind schedule.
There's a downside to spinning too fancy a story too. One often gets got in one's own labyrinthine plots.
Proof of it was IAF being fast asleep at the wheel since 2015 - 16 waking up only towards the end of December '21.
All we need to do is order the remaining 36 or 54 & close the book on it till the end of the decade post which we can review our indigenous programs to see if an additional 36 is needed depending on how far our programs have slipped behind schedule.
There's a downside to spinning too fancy a story too. One often gets got in one's own labyrinthine plots.
*yawn*
The IAF needs 200+ Rafales, not 36 or 54 more. This is something only people who have at least an inkling of geography and air power will get. People who absorb information concerning reality like it's a story without any analysis are only fit for staying in school rather than the real world.
www.livemint.com
114+57 through the tender will give us 171 jets right off the bat. If we are lucky, we will get another 36 jets before the tender delivers. And we will need another 10-20 jets to take care of attrition as production comes to an end. So anywhere between 217 jets (11 squadrons) at the minimum and a potential maximum of 263 (13 squadrons).
We need 6-7 bases at the minimum.
The IAF needs 200+ Rafales, not 36 or 54 more. This is something only people who have at least an inkling of geography and air power will get. People who absorb information concerning reality like it's a story without any analysis are only fit for staying in school rather than the real world.
India needs 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Arup Raha
Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha said India has enough of heavy weight fighters Su30 MKI to last for another 30-40 years
www.livemint.com
114+57 through the tender will give us 171 jets right off the bat. If we are lucky, we will get another 36 jets before the tender delivers. And we will need another 10-20 jets to take care of attrition as production comes to an end. So anywhere between 217 jets (11 squadrons) at the minimum and a potential maximum of 263 (13 squadrons).
We need 6-7 bases at the minimum.
There was a time , in Older Forum I think when myself and a few more filled with 200% optimism would talk about no less than 12 squadrons of Rafale for IAF.*yawn*
The IAF needs 200+ Rafales, not 36 or 54 more. This is something only people who have at least an inkling of geography and air power will get. People who absorb information concerning reality like it's a story without any analysis are only fit for staying in school rather than the real world.
India needs 200-250 Rafales to maintain edge: Arup Raha
Indian Air Force chief Arup Raha said India has enough of heavy weight fighters Su30 MKI to last for another 30-40 years
114+57 through the tender will give us 171 jets right off the bat. If we are lucky, we will get another 36 jets before the tender delivers. And we will need another 10-20 jets to take care of attrition as production comes to an end. So anywhere between 217 jets (11 squadrons) at the minimum and a potential maximum of 263 (13 squadrons).
We need 6-7 bases at the minimum.
Let's just hope that people in important positions realise the importance of time.
Rather you've lost patience over something that's basically taking the right amount of time. It's under SPM after all. And the choices are between it either happens or it doesn't. If it happens, it will happen in large numbers because that's how the tender system works. And we have known for 3 years now that it will happen.
There was a time in I D F , I remember clearly resident storyteller was spinning yarns that our total requirements for IAF + IN could well equal 350 + fighters . Incidentally that's identical to the number the IAF initially said they wanted for the Su-30MKI .
As you can plainly see above , resident storyteller's still hooked on to two fixations - IAF is in brochure collection mode
Cumulative requirements = 260 +
Why was the IAF asleep since 2015 -16 when the initial MMRCA tender was scrapped & the Modi government chose to go for a G2G deal for 36 nos with a follow on deal later on , only to wake up around Dec'21 to draft the SQRs for MMRCA 2.0 / MRFA ? Don't be surprised if the answer thrown right back at you is - coz the IAF was waiting for 2022 .
I kid you not . Apparently the IAF was flush with funds all through. Also apparently , it's not exactly - the IAF was flush with funds as they had quite a few big ticket deals to finance .
It's only after those deals were thru that the IAF which was flush with funds yet not exactly flush with funds would come out with a tender , scratch around for 6-7 yrs at least before being even more flush with funds yet not exactly flush with funds , before they'd conclude a contract for 114 nos MRFA then scratch around for another 3 yrs for the 1st MII fighter to come through before getting the whole complement by 2040-42 & being in a position of an embarrassment of riches by then courtesy those MRFA's , AMCA - Mk-1 + Mk-2 , Tejas - Mk-1 / Mk-1a / Mk-2 finally declare to PLAAF , GoI & thru it to the Indian people , that they're ready to face the Chinese.
The Chinese being equally pleased & chivalrous would then oblige.
For more such fascinating stories do tune in regularly . You'd learn a lot on GoI's procurement policies & if not for that , at least the art of storytelling from a master storyteller .
As you can plainly see above , resident storyteller's still hooked on to two fixations - IAF is in brochure collection mode
Cumulative requirements = 260 +
Why was the IAF asleep since 2015 -16 when the initial MMRCA tender was scrapped & the Modi government chose to go for a G2G deal for 36 nos with a follow on deal later on , only to wake up around Dec'21 to draft the SQRs for MMRCA 2.0 / MRFA ? Don't be surprised if the answer thrown right back at you is - coz the IAF was waiting for 2022 .
I kid you not . Apparently the IAF was flush with funds all through. Also apparently , it's not exactly - the IAF was flush with funds as they had quite a few big ticket deals to finance .
It's only after those deals were thru that the IAF which was flush with funds yet not exactly flush with funds would come out with a tender , scratch around for 6-7 yrs at least before being even more flush with funds yet not exactly flush with funds , before they'd conclude a contract for 114 nos MRFA then scratch around for another 3 yrs for the 1st MII fighter to come through before getting the whole complement by 2040-42 & being in a position of an embarrassment of riches by then courtesy those MRFA's , AMCA - Mk-1 + Mk-2 , Tejas - Mk-1 / Mk-1a / Mk-2 finally declare to PLAAF , GoI & thru it to the Indian people , that they're ready to face the Chinese.
The Chinese being equally pleased & chivalrous would then oblige.
For more such fascinating stories do tune in regularly . You'd learn a lot on GoI's procurement policies & if not for that , at least the art of storytelling from a master storyteller .
The only storyteller is the one claiming someone else is a storyteller.
The numbers I've predicted turned out to be correct, and we are now heading in that direction. The IAF requirement was for 200+ jets, and with 36+114+57, we get 207. The navy wanted up to 200 jets, their own words. With 45 Mig-29Ks, 57 MRCBF and a production contract for 100 MRCBF (their numbers), we would have reached 150-200 jets, alongside the retirement of the Mig-29K, and the death of 45 N-LCA. But then the production contract switched over to TEDBF, it became the successor to the N-LCA. So 26 (plus options) + as many as 100+ jets will give us 150+ jets.
So we have 200+ MRFA for IAF and 150+ MRCBF/TEDBF for IN. The numbers have stayed the same. I mean, literally no change. That's 350+ jets. Still the same. We are getting better jets that before, that's the only difference.
Silly Ignorants doesn't know it takes time to draft requirements, and it undergoes refreshes every few months until the forces are prepared to release it. When they are ready, the forces ask for AoN. SPM rules were prepared only in 2020 under the DAP 2020. So the first major RFP under DAP 2020 was the P-75I in 2021 and now the next big one will be MRFA in early 2022. NUH is expected to follow soon too. Things get simpler when one is not ignorant.
The numbers I've predicted turned out to be correct, and we are now heading in that direction. The IAF requirement was for 200+ jets, and with 36+114+57, we get 207. The navy wanted up to 200 jets, their own words. With 45 Mig-29Ks, 57 MRCBF and a production contract for 100 MRCBF (their numbers), we would have reached 150-200 jets, alongside the retirement of the Mig-29K, and the death of 45 N-LCA. But then the production contract switched over to TEDBF, it became the successor to the N-LCA. So 26 (plus options) + as many as 100+ jets will give us 150+ jets.
So we have 200+ MRFA for IAF and 150+ MRCBF/TEDBF for IN. The numbers have stayed the same. I mean, literally no change. That's 350+ jets. Still the same. We are getting better jets that before, that's the only difference.
Silly Ignorants doesn't know it takes time to draft requirements, and it undergoes refreshes every few months until the forces are prepared to release it. When they are ready, the forces ask for AoN. SPM rules were prepared only in 2020 under the DAP 2020. So the first major RFP under DAP 2020 was the P-75I in 2021 and now the next big one will be MRFA in early 2022. NUH is expected to follow soon too. Things get simpler when one is not ignorant.
PS: The IAF never said they wanted 350 MKIs.
The only one who peddled such a story was the actual storyteller PSG and his ignorant fanbase. Much, much later, HAL tried to add 4 more squadrons to the inventory in 2019, 72 more jets that would take the fleet to 344, and the IAF laughed them out the door. The story stuck because Ignorants will always remain Ignorants.
The only one who peddled such a story was the actual storyteller PSG and his ignorant fanbase. Much, much later, HAL tried to add 4 more squadrons to the inventory in 2019, 72 more jets that would take the fleet to 344, and the IAF laughed them out the door. The story stuck because Ignorants will always remain Ignorants.
Ah yes!! PKS the one & only original storyteller. It's funny how two storytellers relate to each other . Rather one of them does. The other may not even be aware of his cheaper counterfeit version. Why cheaper counterfeit version? For in my experience of reading PKS, he gets 7/10 or 8/10 of his predictions spot on. I assume I'm speaking on behalf of most members here who've followed PKS's Trishul with some regularity.
While cheap counterfeit version merely keeps postponing the date of reckoning. It's 2022 today. Tomm it's 2025 . From there to 2027 & on & on. Frankly I've yet to see one prediction from cheap counterfeit version to come true. The record stands 0/10 for every year since 2016. I'm happy to correct myself if proven wrong.
It is what it is.
Incidentally , Multiple Russian sources for some reason since the mid 2000s have been reporting the IAF had signed for / already had 350 MKIs. All of them had been reading Trishul even before it was launched. Just a few samples ( though these are from mid 2010s ) .
While cheap counterfeit version merely keeps postponing the date of reckoning. It's 2022 today. Tomm it's 2025 . From there to 2027 & on & on. Frankly I've yet to see one prediction from cheap counterfeit version to come true. The record stands 0/10 for every year since 2016. I'm happy to correct myself if proven wrong.
It is what it is.
Incidentally , Multiple Russian sources for some reason since the mid 2000s have been reporting the IAF had signed for / already had 350 MKIs. All of them had been reading Trishul even before it was launched. Just a few samples ( though these are from mid 2010s ) .
Лучше меньше: зачем России сверхзвуковая мини-ракета
Индийские ВВС получили первый истребитель Су-30МКИ вооруженный воздушной версией сверхзвуковой противокорабельной крылатой ракеты BrahMos-А. Это событие можно считать знаковым как для индийских, так и российских ВВС. Это в перспективе может стать главным ударным средством морской авиации обоих...
tvzvezda.ru
Delays have squandered options for joint Indo-Russian aircraft
Inordinate delays in executing joint aircraft production projects have meant that India and Russia have squandered their chances to become world...
www.rbth.com
Oh well it's now 36+57+114 . That makes it 200+ for the IAF ( why 57 ? It's 2022 ,silly chap. Hence the bonus, bonehead) & the original naval plan was for 100-200 . Hence a ballpark figure of 350 nos was offered presumably all of them Rafales. It's such simple mathematics. For some strange reason I was brushing up my knowledge of calculus.
Hence I've also just learned as many of you would have, that a re issuance of a tender scrapped in 2015-16 takes 5-6 yrs to refraft with pretty much most of the same participants as last time because it takes time to gather tech specs.
The numbers are apparently the same - 350 . But we'd be getting better fighters than before. In which case if we wait for a few more years in a supine state, we may get even better fighters.
I simply love this forum. BRF, Twitter & D F I fails before the infotainment provided here.
Hence I've also just learned as many of you would have, that a re issuance of a tender scrapped in 2015-16 takes 5-6 yrs to refraft with pretty much most of the same participants as last time because it takes time to gather tech specs.
The numbers are apparently the same - 350 . But we'd be getting better fighters than before. In which case if we wait for a few more years in a supine state, we may get even better fighters.
I simply love this forum. BRF, Twitter & D F I fails before the infotainment provided here.
Can't really make this up, folks...
Really, impossible... Like, literally impossible...
Ignorants: Post 3458...
Frankly I've yet to see one prediction from cheap counterfeit version to come true.
Ignorants: Post 911...
www.strategicfront.org
How come there's not much hype or articles by the usual suspects in the MSM or even discussions out here on what's probably the greatest push for MII or Atma Nirbharta in the last 2 decades if not more ??!
2022!!!
Really, impossible... Like, literally impossible...
Ignorants: Post 3458...
Frankly I've yet to see one prediction from cheap counterfeit version to come true.
Ignorants: Post 911...
Indian Defense Industry General News and Updates
2022!!!
