Lok Sabha passes Citizenship Bill amidst Opposition outcry

[Ashwin]

When I compare with China, you go "Be idealistic!" "We should not take a non-democratic dictatorship or theology as our yardstick!".
When I compare with modern DEMOCRATIC USA, you go all "Be realistic!", "Dont compare with a super power!" etc etc etc.

Reread what you just replied to.

The point was not to compare more

No diplomacy is based on some comparison. It's usually negotiations to get the most out for us according to our interests and values. It is depended on our position in the world.

Here is a simple fact. Before 1971, India always used to own up our "fault lines" and was always "better" than commies and Islamists. Well, in morality at-least. We were doing NAM, signing Panchsheel, finding ways to resolve conflicts all over the world. Beaurocrats were happy, they were being recognized by the west! Nehru was in seventh heaven. Then what happened? In 1962, China *censored*ed India hard. Nehru died of grief. In 1965, Pakistan bashed the hell out of Indian army. Shastri died of heart attack in Russia. Meanwhile, US and rest of democratic world was busy in bullying Cuba and supplying tanks to Pakistan.

A perfect example of Hindsight bias. You are evaluating decisions made then based on the information and other variables that later seems inevitable.

Pre 1971 india was piss poor, recurring famines and depended on aid, illiteracy, high population growth rate, boundaries were not settled, internal riots, lack of jobs etc. Every neighbor in the southeast was going through chaos. Be it a military coup or insurgency. Our priority was survival of the state and democracy for that matter. Projecting a muscular foreign policy was definitely not a priority. So get a little perspective when prescribing medicine for the past.

 

[Saaho]

Only UN SECURITY COUNCIL is of any standing and Consequence

EU people are SIMPLY JEALOUS
Of the fact that EU has no clout in the world today and that EU is America's poodle

Actually its more the question of EU Parliament. EU Parliament has less powers than student council of your present/past school.

No diplomacy is based on some comparison. It is negotiations to get the most out for us according to our interests and values. It is depended on our position in the world.

Well, my point was rather simple, incase it went missing.

There is real diplomacy which involves negotiation with real decision makers on real issues. This is what India did in 1960s and 1971. With USSR.

Then there is fluff diplomacy, all the resolutions, statements, respect from some arbitrary worthless institutions like EU Parliament and what not.

To me it seems you and certain folks confuse one for another. I showed that how EU Parliament is worthless and Indians who are so worried about it should rather learn from history. Its not that hard.

A perfect example of Hindsight bias. You are evaluating decisions made then based on the information and other variables that later seems inevitable.

No dear, its perfect example of RealPolitik vs Fluff diplomacy. Indira Gandhi had that vision. She chose to be real. Nehru on the other hand was all too idealistic. I can post his quotes before he even allowed Indian forces to enter Kashmir in 1947. Thats the diplomacy I find stupid.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Europeans who are lecturing us already have increasing Islamophobia in their countries

And in a few years time , this problem will
Explode in their face

Russia and China dont give a damn
Japan doesnt even visas to Muslims

US is quiet subdued

OIC has no business to comment given the
Rights enjoyed by Non Muslims in Muslim
Countries

Only Europe is barking

 

[Ashwin]

Actually its more the question of EU Parliament. EU Parliament has less powers than student council of your present/past school.


Well, my point was rather simple, incase it went missing.

There is real diplomacy which involves negotiation with real decision makers on real issues. This is what India did in 1960s and 1971. With USSR.

Then there is fluff diplomacy, all the resolutions, statements, respect from some arbitrary worthless institutions like EU Parliament and what not.

To me it seems you and certain folks confuse one for another. I showed that how EU Parliament is worthless and Indians who are so worried about it should rather learn from history. Its not that hard.


No dear, its perfect example of RealPolitik vs Fluff diplomacy. Indira Gandhi had that vision. She chose to be real. Nehru on the other hand was all too idealistic. I can post his quotes before he even allowed Indian forces to enter Kashmir in 1947. Thats the diplomacy I find stupid.

Yes , bias can be hard to fathom (So yeah Blame Nehru). I do not necessarily disagree with this, but history can't be that simple.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

And here is the funniest of all

EU distances itself from its lawmakers’ anti-CAA move: Not our official position

EU distances itself from its lawmakers’ anti-CAA move: Not our official position


So, it seems EU Parliament is not having enough clout over EU itself. WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT THAT!

@BlackOpsIndia I guess those lines are in order. LOL!
@Ashwin There you go.



Folks, ever wonder why such kind of weird dissonance happen? This is the live example of Fluff diplomacy hitting the Real one.

Lol, Did you even read the article or got your juices flowing just by headline? Read it and re read your own post where you called EU useless, if EU was useless why was Indian government engaging EU Nations and their diplomats and Om Birla writing letters?

Now read my first post again, use that wiki link to know about EU and than we will slowly graduate to Indian government and it's EU centric approach in various ministries.

BTW vote is on 30th January and as per last reports 626 MP's out of 751 members moved those 6 resolutions.

I don't even think any Indian government will mess up so badly that they will let resolution pass even when today's number show otherwise. But what are you celebrating? That someone slapped you and you dogged, pleaded and asked him not to do it in public?

I didnt see any 'real diplomacy' you fantasize in your whatsapp world but letters and prayers like moderates of congress do to britishers. Please don't say anything wrong about us, we have some respect, if you say anything wrong people will start talking.

That's what is happening in real, in public domain and it's not as rosy as in your lala land.

 

[Sulla84]

Actually its more the question of EU Parliament. EU Parliament has less powers than student council of your present/past school.

Dont be so sure... International relations is about momentum... Once the powerful blocks and countries in the world, feel that it is a good thing to spit at India's face, roast it in public... their cumulative effect leads to real world consequences like economic sanctions a few years later... And dont compare Brazilian amazon exploitation, with the prospect of millions of muslims who have exercised their vote in India's elections, being rendered stateless through nationwide NRC
That Om Birla wrote that love letter to EU, and India mobilized its diplomats..tells you how serious things are...

 

[Saaho]

Lol, Did you even read the article or got your juices flowing just by headline? Read it and re read your own post where you called EU useless, if EU was useless why was Indian government engaging EU Nations and their diplomats and Om Birla writing letters?

I said it yesterday and I will repeat again. EU Parliament is worthless (I have given ample proof of their worthless resolutions). Real diplomacy happens with real nations and not some odd beauracratic body like EU parliament. India is engaging with EU member (ie the real nations). Thats good and dare I say great!

Now read my first post again, use that wiki link to know about EU and than we will slowly graduate to Indian government and it's EU centric approach in various ministries.

Lemme ask you this : Do you think EU is same as EU Parliament (a worthless beaurocratic body)?

BTW vote is on 30th January and as per last reports 626 MP's out of 751 members moved those 6 resolutions.

And what will it achieve? Read what happened in case of Brazil. I won't even say China and USA.

I don't even think any Indian government will mess up so badly that they will let resolution pass even when today's number show otherwise. But what are you celebrating? That someone slapped you and you dogged, pleaded and asked him not to do it in public?

I am merely asking this : What are REAL (as in trade and commerce) consequence of being named and shamed by EU Parliament?
Brazil had none. Japan (yes they were also named and shamed by EU Parliament for ... whale hunting LOL!) had none.

I didnt see any 'real diplomacy' you fantasize in your whatsapp world but letters and prayers like moderates of congress do to britishers. Please don't say anything wrong about us, we have some respect, if you say anything wrong people will start talking.

None of my references are WhatsApp texts. All were from EU Parliament website or UK-based NGOs. Your own posts are devoid of any facts and read like quintessential whatsapp messages.

That's what is happening in real, in public domain and it's not as rosy as in your lala land.

Come tell me when EU Parliament is able to stop a million dollar worth of trade with India.

 

[Saaho]

Dont be so sure... International relations is about momentum... Once the powerful blocks and countries in the world, feel that it is a good thing to spit at India's face, roast it in public... their cumulative effect leads to real world consequences like economic sanctions a few years later... And dont compare Brazilian amazon exploitation, with the prospect of millions of muslims who have exercised their vote in India's elections, being rendered stateless...
That Om Birla wrote that love letter to EU, and India mobilized its diplomats..tells you how serious things are...

`Have you read resolutions of EU Parliament? Read them here :

Home | Delegations | European Parliament

Choose the individual delegations. Read the individual resolution. And then go and look what countries have done after getting those stupid resolution.

Oh, and for love of God, EU-members, EU and EU Parliament are THREE very different things.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

The members who are WORRIED about EU
Resolutions are perhaps young and have NOT SEEN the international pressure on
INDIA post POKHRAN 2 in 1998

That was some real problem that had the attention of the Entire country , media , economic experts

This is BS

 

[Sulla84]

`Have you read resolutions of EU Parliament? Read them here :

Home | Delegations | European Parliament

Choose the individual delegations. Read the individual resolution. And then go and look what countries have done after getting those stupid resolution.

Oh, and for love of God, EU-members, EU and EU Parliament are THREE very different things.

I think you get what the broad consensus about the new India, among the countries that comprise the West looks like. Once that consensus about India's direction hardens, there will be material costs that India would have to pay. The exact price will depend on what BJPs end game is, and the amount of human suffering it renders...

The members who are WORRIED about EU
Resolutions are perhaps young and have NOT SEEN the international pressure on
INDIA post POKHRAN 2 in 1998

That was some real problem that had the attention of the Entire country , media , economic experts

This is BS

It's so much more than just EU resolutions.. The game of Citizenship has just begun... Let's see how it unfolds..

 

[Saaho]

The members who are WORRIED about EU
Resolutions are perhaps young and have NOT SEEN the international pressure on
INDIA post POKHRAN 2 in 1998

That was some real problem that had the attention of the Entire country , media , economic experts

This is BS

Actually I am more worried about Trump's India visit. He has an axe to grind. It is his election year. He will like to pressure India in entering unfavourable trade deals with US. And he has muscles and a history of actually sticking his guns. I guess India should give him a visible victory, like lowering duties on low volume visible goods. Cheaper Harleys Davidsons anyone?

I think you get what the broad consensus about the new India, among the countries that comprise the West looks like. Once that consensus about India's direction hardens, there will be material costs that India would have to pay. The exact price will depend on what BJPs end game is, and the amount of human suffering it renders...

Except it never works that way. When India tested nukes in 1998, US, UK, Japan went ballistic. Germany had a guarded opinion. Russia supported. So did France.

 

[Saaho]

It's so much more than just EU resolutions.. The game of Citizenship has just begun... Let's see how it unfolds..

And that game is India's game. Any outsider can fluff off.

 

[Saaho]

Read it and re read your own post where you called EU useless, if EU was useless why was Indian government engaging EU Nations and their diplomats and Om Birla writing letters?

The same reason any Indian government does it always. To defend against PR barrage from opposition. The PR image has no consequence in real terms as far as trade, commerce, economy goes. It does have a domestic impact. Many Indians are rather image conscious bunch. Especially when it comes from anything that has the word "European" in it. Does not matter if it is even "European Sex Worker's Parliament". If it says Europeans, Indians will pay absolute attention to it. As if it is pantheon ordaining the lowly humans about how they should behave in their bedrooms.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

I said it yesterday and I will repeat again. EU Parliament is worthless (I have given ample proof of their worthless resolutions). Real diplomacy happens with real nations and not some odd beauracratic body like EU parliament. India is engaging with EU member (ie the real nations). Thats good and dare I say great!


Lemme ask you this : Do you think EU is same as EU Parliament (a worthless beaurocratic body)?


And what will it achieve? Read what happened in case of Brazil. I won't even say China and USA.


I am merely asking this : What are REAL (as in trade and commerce) consequence of being named and shamed by EU Parliament?
Brazil had none. Japan (yes they were also named and shamed by EU Parliament for ... whale hunting LOL!) had none.


None of my references are WhatsApp texts. All were from EU Parliament website or UK-based NGOs. Your own posts are devoid of any facts and read like quintessential whatsapp messages.


Come tell me when EU Parliament is able to stop a million dollar worth of trade with India.

You seems to have some difficulty in understanding basic structure of multi nation organizations. Members of such orgs does not surender their sovereignty to them, neither to UN nor to EU and not to SCO or whatever.

These organizations provides the guidelines to members states that maybe binding or non binding. There is no need to go into binding as it's pretty self explanatory but the non binding resolutions are not as useless as you think, for example UN Resolution 47 was non binding but have been used as cover not just by Pakistan but every other country that want to poke India or humiliate us. Do we want more such resolutions in world where big multi national groups condemn us?

Coming back to EU Parliament, it is 2nd largest Parliament of world (by number of voters) after India and have pretty strong indirect influence on member states via various committees and hearings. Not to mention army of journalists that will degrade you, heckle you and create anti India hysteria in Europe.

The damage it will do to India's cause of promoting tourism, exports and investment can not be easily measured. The soft image we are able to cultivate after long rich cultural heritage will be in tatters and it will become a favorite tool to beat us. There are organizations that issue boycott calls and protest for chump change and have good following they will be there every Independence day and Republic day to irritate us.

Any EU state gets angry, invite Pakistan and insert the resolution in joint declaration. It will be a constant headache and for what? Lets say let's be indifferent let all the hard work go down the drain to give a message that we don't care but for what? CAA? It's not even a bill, it's 4-5 line amendment which facilitates, protects vulnerable population from neighbouring Violent Theocratic States.

EU could have been great asset as they claim to stand for persecuted, weak and vulnerables instead they are standing against you and censuring you!

Guess the genius that achieved this.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

The same reason any Indian government does it always. To defend against PR barrage from opposition. The PR image has no consequence in real terms as far as trade, commerce, economy goes. It does have a domestic impact. Many Indians are rather image conscious bunch. Especially when it comes from anything that has the word "European" in it. Does not matter if it is even "European Sex Worker's Parliament". If it says Europeans, Indians will pay absolute attention to it. As if it is pantheon ordaining the lowly humans about how they should behave in their bedrooms.

EU is vital for India's trade needs, if it want to stand in league of big nations. Nobody said Europeans are saints, they are highest level hypocrites, how else will they pretend to be liberal after the kind of past they had?! I don't care what they are, we need that market, we need them buying Indian and a negative PR hurts alot.

Now before you give example of China remember we are not as competitive as China, even after so much baggage we too buy Chinese products because there isn't any value for money alternative. We want to be alternative to China in EU, since we can't match them in price we use our charm, more China assert itself better for us. But our charm, 'goodness', democratic credentials losses it's value if there is a barrage of misreporting on daily news.

"Look what is happening in India" that's not a customer that will buy our products happily. They are hypocrites and gullible, can be used as an asset to reach the ultimate goal or we can have warriors like you who will make sure we turn them against us because after all we are a force to reckon with.

 

[Saaho]

but the non binding resolutions are not as useless as you think, for example UN Resolution 47 was non binding but have been used as cover not just by Pakistan but every other country that want to poke India or humiliate us. Do we want more such resolutions in world where big multi national groups condemn us?

Good that you brought non-binding resolutions and good that you brought 47 resolution. You DO know that Resolution 47 has been superseded, right? In 1950 resolution 80 was passed in UN which superseded resolution 47.

Security Council Resolution 80 - UNSCR

This resolution changed position of UNSC from earlier resolution (47). While 47 demanded Pakistan to first withdraw and AFTER that India should. This resolution essentially rebuked India and Pakistan EQUALLY. And asked both to withdraw forces in five months.

Needless to say, such action never materialized. But that is not even the point of discussion here. The point here is, India herself approached UN and :

1. Proposed (via Mounbatten and Nehru) a referendum in Kashmir to resolve their status. It is noteworthy that Jinnah rejected this in 47.
2. Jinnah said (with respect to Junagard) that "these states are sovereign and they (ie their rulers) will decide whom to join".

Even with instrument of accession, UN basically treated Pakistan (the invading party, who invaded even with a standstill agreement in place) same as India who actually went to UN to peacefully settle the matter. And not just that, "UN" CHANGED its opinion in face of ALL the atrocities done by invading non-professional Push-toons.

Why am I telling you this all? Simply, to IMPRESS upon you the basic fact that diplomacy works on interest. When interest align, diplomatic statements do as well and all these UN/EU etc are not even worth mentioning. Indian interest can NEVER align with left leaning groups dominant in EU Parliament who are pushing these worthless resolutions.

Do you know when most of UNSC resolution were passed against India? During 1960s. After 1971? None! None AT ALL! Why?

1. India had alliances with USSR and later France to veto such resolutions.
2. Most importantly, India STOPPED bothering about UNSC resolutions.

Non-binding resolutions are excuses. When someone has to mess with India they start citing non-binding resolutions. The point is not the presence of these resolutions, the point is that someone is messing with India.

EU is vital for India's trade needs, if it want to stand in league of big nations. Nobody said Europeans are saints, they are highest level hypocrites, how else will they pretend to be liberal after the kind of past they had?! I don't care what they are, we need that market, we need them buying Indian and a negative PR hurts alot.

Now before you give example of China remember we are not as competitive as China, even after so much baggage we too buy Chinese products because there isn't any value for money alternative. We want to be alternative to China in EU, since we can't match them in price we use our charm, more China assert itself better for us. But our charm, 'goodness', democratic credentials losses it's value if there is a barrage of misreporting on daily news.

"Look what is happening in India" that's not a customer that will buy our products happily. They are hypocrites and gullible, can be used as an asset to reach the ultimate goal or we can have warriors like you who will make sure we turn them against us because after all we are a force to reckon with.

One more, EU members (with whom you do trade) ARE NOT SAME AS EU and even that is NOT SAME AS EU Parliament.

EU members =/= EU =/= EU Parliament.

Now before you give example of China remember we are not as competitive as China

Oh I am now citing Brazil. That works right?

 

[Saaho]

But our charm, 'goodness', democratic credentials losses it's value if there is a barrage of misreporting on daily news.

I live in Canada. Indian products that are on shelves are mostly cotton "wares", food items, spices. No one for a moment looks at the place of manufacturing. They just buy the cheapest. Just like India. Fluff vs Real.

Canadian businesses? Well lets say India is not even the most evil partner they deal with. A certain fruit company operating from Africa comes to mind.

"Look what is happening in India" that's not a customer that will buy our products happily. They are hypocrites and gullible, can be used as an asset to reach the ultimate goal or we can have warriors like you who will make sure we turn them against us because after all we are a force to reckon with.

Customer buy because of price and wares. India or China becomes a footnote somewhere on the box. Just to fulfill the legal requirement. It is actually very hard these days to find where the good or service was sourced from. I vividly remember a commercial which informed people about why they should buy baby food which originate from Europe and not USA due to inadequate FDA standards for arsenic levels.

You know what Nestle did? They bought rights from Gerber, a swiss owned brand. They sell their products with Gerber label. And it is impossible to find "Made In" part on their packaging.

I am sure that ingredients are sourced from somewhere in China or Latin America.

 

[screambowl]

People are already fed up in europe regarding muslim refugees, Poland has already made it clear they will not entertain any of them. They have been cooking stuff in pork fat and selling wine every where to keep them away.

There is a refugee politics going on in Germany. France has not forgotten Charlie hebedo and recently London saw the knife attack.

Had it been some other issue regarding women empowerment, gays right etc, these countries would have had some stand. Now They themselves are going through the problem who would think that they will say, well India should take the refugees too.

And who are refugees? There is a proper definition to it before these people allow asylum. Syrians have been fleeing war, what Pakistani Muslims and Bangladeshi Muslims be fleeing?

I am happy that this debate in EU will become milestone that India has taken some step and defined some guidelines. EU should follow. You just wait and watch how this resolution will be accepted and backfire.

Pakistani lobbyst have doomed the Muslim refugees as a whole by taking this debate to EU parliament.

 

[Saaho]

I am happy that this debate in EU will become milestone that India has taken some step and defined some guidelines. EU should follow. You just wait and watch how this resolution will be accepted and backfire.

Actually that is true to an extent. If India takes a hard stance on Muslim immigration, it will be harder for European politicians to tell their own public that allowing more Muslim immigrants was a Good Thing(TM). It will come back and bite in their "*censored*". Already it has happened in UK. In a major way.

 

[fyodor]

You seems to have some difficulty in understanding basic structure of multi nation organizations. Members of such orgs does not surender their sovereignty to them, neither to UN nor to EU and not to SCO or whatever.

These organizations provides the guidelines to members states that maybe binding or non binding. There is no need to go into binding as it's pretty self explanatory but the non binding resolutions are not as useless as you think, for example UN Resolution 47 was non binding but have been used as cover not just by Pakistan but every other country that want to poke India or humiliate us. Do we want more such resolutions in world where big multi national groups condemn us?

Coming back to EU Parliament, it is 2nd largest Parliament of world (by number of voters) after India and have pretty strong indirect influence on member states via various committees and hearings. Not to mention army of journalists that will degrade you, heckle you and create anti India hysteria in Europe.

The damage it will do to India's cause of promoting tourism, exports and investment can not be easily measured. The soft image we are able to cultivate after long rich cultural heritage will be in tatters and it will become a favorite tool to beat us. There are organizations that issue boycott calls and protest for chump change and have good following they will be there every Independence day and Republic day to irritate us.

Any EU state gets angry, invite Pakistan and insert the resolution in joint declaration. It will be a constant headache and for what? Lets say let's be indifferent let all the hard work go down the drain to give a message that we don't care but for what? CAA? It's not even a bill, it's 4-5 line amendment which facilitates, protects vulnerable population from neighbouring Violent Theocratic States.

EU could have been great asset as they claim to stand for persecuted, weak and vulnerables instead they are standing against you and censuring you!

Guess the genius that achieved this.

The soft image has earned India the tag of one of the least visited country(it was 30 something when I checked last) after being such a big place. The soft image has also made India vulnerable with an attack dog like Pakistan barking almost everyday. Whereas China, one of that commie sinkhole as we like to describe is one of the world's most visited country and also one of the most powerful and well poised to be a global leader. And that is after all the negative publicity they deal: 10x more than India.

I think what people forget is that we cannot avoid the confrontation we are getting now. We should get used to it. Remember that no country likes some other country to be in competition for power struggle. As India grows stronger and assertive, the eye of the world will be on us. No one will let us take the seat at the high command. India will have to snatch it and they will fight.

So its time we get accustomed to such barrages and learn how to play our own cards.

As far as the EU drama is concerned, we already seeing "balancing":
EU distances itself from European Parliament’s anti-CAA resolution