MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Mk1a is delayed
m2 is ridiculously delayed
And the greedy ADA/HAL needs to start work on TEDBF too. Only god knows when will be AMCA will role out. I am expecting at the time of AMCA role out it will be as irrelevant as MK1a is today, and only low tier tasks will be assigned to it.

The future of Air Combat is a combination of Manned and Unmanned Aircrafts

In our case we have begun work on
CATS and FUFA

The present Fifth Generation aircraft are the last of the Manned fighters

And finally more than Aircraft , Missiles will be more useful and destructive

What is the Harm or Disadvantage in spending the money saved from 57 MRFAs on missiles

 

[randomradio]

So the drop to 57 was fake news. It's still 114.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/iaf-to-vault-multi-role-fighter-aircraft-program-under-buy-global-make-india-114-aircraft-in-the-pipeline-intact/2548146/

 

[Parthu]

So the drop to 57 was fake news. It's still 114.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/iaf-to-vault-multi-role-fighter-aircraft-program-under-buy-global-make-india-114-aircraft-in-the-pipeline-intact/2548146/

This number will actually make meaningful ToT viable.

Buy Global & Make in India can actually work if this is true.

 

[Hydra]

The future of Air Combat is a combination of Manned and Unmanned Aircrafts

In our case we have begun work on
CATS and FUFA

The present Fifth Generation aircraft are the last of the Manned fighters

And finally more than Aircraft , Missiles will be more useful and destructive

What is the Harm or Disadvantage in spending the money saved from 57 MRFAs on missiles

Missiles and submarines are primary weapon of choice for weak nations, it give them a deterrence against civilized power,but not against a country like china. You need offensive weapons for such people.
And lastly, the entire money we saved for 57 rafales will not be utilized for some paper works,works, a huge chunks will be diverted to social welfare schemes, remaining will be used for R&D to make shits like LCA or Arjun.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Missiles and submarines are primary weapon of choice for weak nations, it give them a deterrence against civilized power,but not against a country like china. You need offensive weapons for such people.
And lastly, the entire money we saved for 57 rafales will not be utilized for some paper works,works, a huge chunks will be diverted to social welfare schemes, remaining will be used for R&D to make shits like LCA or Arjun.

You shouldn't drink in Daytime

But it is the weekend , so its Ok

 

[randomradio]

This number will actually make meaningful ToT viable.

Buy Global & Make in India can actually work if this is true.

We are on track for the 6+3 deal. Pretty much what the IAF wants. Now the question, as it was before, is the speed of induction. Whether it's gonna be 12-16 per year or 24 per year.

 

[john0496]

Behind all this story, I'm very curious to know what the IAF thinks about the Rafales since they have a few real ones in their hands....though the ISE could still missing for now (I don't remember well how the update was scheduled : after the last plane delivered, but when ?)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Behind all this story, I'm very curious to know what the IAF thinks about the Rafales since they have a few real ones in their hands....though the ISE could still missing for now (I don't remember well how the update was scheduled : after the last plane delivered, but when ?)

Normally it takes 3 Months after the last plane is delivered to retrofit the whole fleet and it has to be before September 2022 to be compliant with a 6 years delivery....

 

[randomradio]

Behind all this story, I'm very curious to know what the IAF thinks about the Rafales since they have a few real ones in their hands....though the ISE could still missing for now (I don't remember well how the update was scheduled : after the last plane delivered, but when ?)

We have nothing official from the IAF about the Rafale. All we know is they want more.

The last plane's probably being used to test the ISE. It is supposed to be completed by September.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Behind all this story, I'm very curious to know what the IAF thinks about the Rafales since they have a few real ones in their hands....though the ISE could still missing for now (I don't remember well how the update was scheduled : after the last plane delivered, but when ?)

In the Eastern air Command, they will need assets like AWACS and Tankers to actually realise their full potential.

 

[Hydra]

You shouldn't drink in Daytime

But it is the weekend , so its Ok

What prompt you to make this statement?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

What prompt you to make this statement?

You have written a paragraph of 10 lines but mixed up so many themes

1 Strong and Weak Nations

2 Offensive weapons for Uncivilized people

3 Money diverted from defence to social welfare and Research And Development

4 LCA and Arjun being bad and being " panned " in the same sentence

If I have hurt you inadvertently then I apologize

 

[Lolwa]

The future of Air Combat is a combination of Manned and Unmanned Aircrafts

In our case we have begun work on
CATS and FUFA

The present Fifth Generation aircraft are the last of the Manned fighters

And finally more than Aircraft , Missiles will be more useful and destructive

What is the Harm or Disadvantage in spending the money saved from 57 MRFAs on missiles

We just need to mass produce rustam 1 and tapas and arm it with helina, spike nlos, hell fire and other Israeli munitions. Half of our air requirements will be covered.
Rustam 1 is tb2 class
Rustam 2 is somewhere between the anka and akinci/heron in capability. Just mass produce them and arm them and improve their engine in iterations.

 

[Ashwin]

French Dassault vs US Boeing — Mega fighter deal for IAF & Indian Navy could be split

Instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go as planned earlier, govt looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for IAF. Navy looking at buying 26.

theprint.in

New Delhi: The Narendra Modi government is looking at splitting the mega deal for 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) into two separate orders, even as the Navy pursues its own fighter aircraft acquisition programme, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the Indian defence and security establishment said that instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go, as was planned earlier, the government is looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for the IAF.

This would involve 18 fighters being bought off-the-shelf from the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and 36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.

This would be an order that will be placed with the foreign OEM directly.

Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency.

While sources refused to speculate on whether there would be a global tender that will be issued, the main players for the IAF deal will be American firm Boeing, and Dassault Aviation of France.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.

Which Large Hearted Foreign OEM will agree to this proposal

 

[Ankit Kumar]

French Dassault vs US Boeing — Mega fighter deal for IAF & Indian Navy could be split

Instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go as planned earlier, govt looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for IAF. Navy looking at buying 26.

theprint.in

New Delhi: The Narendra Modi government is looking at splitting the mega deal for 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) into two separate orders, even as the Navy pursues its own fighter aircraft acquisition programme, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the Indian defence and security establishment said that instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go, as was planned earlier, the government is looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for the IAF.

This would involve 18 fighters being bought off-the-shelf from the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and 36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.

This would be an order that will be placed with the foreign OEM directly.

Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency.

While sources refused to speculate on whether there would be a global tender that will be issued, the main players for the IAF deal will be American firm Boeing, and Dassault Aviation of France.

Which Large Hearted Foreign OEM will agree to this proposal

OEM will agree to assemble just 1 aircraft even, if we are ready to pay the costs. They need to produce the CKDs and send it off. India Airforce Pays for import duty, GST and foreign OEM staff.

A 90 million USD jet will end up costing 150mil USD.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

OEM will agree to assemble just 1 aircraft even, if we are ready to pay the costs. They need to produce the CKDs and send it off. India Airforce Pays for import duty, GST and foreign OEM staff.

A 90 million USD jet will end up costing 150mil USD.

GOI is Re Defining the idiom
Tying Oneself in Knots

 

[Parthu]

French Dassault vs US Boeing — Mega fighter deal for IAF & Indian Navy could be split

Instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go as planned earlier, govt looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for IAF. Navy looking at buying 26.

theprint.in

New Delhi: The Narendra Modi government is looking at splitting the mega deal for 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) into two separate orders, even as the Navy pursues its own fighter aircraft acquisition programme, ThePrint has learnt.

Sources in the Indian defence and security establishment said that instead of acquiring 114 fighters in one go, as was planned earlier, the government is looking at going in for an initial order of 54 aircraft for the IAF.

This would involve 18 fighters being bought off-the-shelf from the foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) and 36 being built in India through a joint venture under Make In India.

This would be an order that will be placed with the foreign OEM directly.

Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency.

While sources refused to speculate on whether there would be a global tender that will be issued, the main players for the IAF deal will be American firm Boeing, and Dassault Aviation of France.

A production line for 36 jets - this is going from being a bad joke to a cruel joke.

The concept of 'assured orders' into the future is very shaky...MoD has no rationalized spending plan, as demonstrated over the last 15 years by their unwillingness to spend at a rate of about $2B/year to procure a new foreign fighter platform with full ToT.

It'll come down to whether Dassault can convince its shareholders to accept this much risk...at a time when Middle Eastern customers are buying 80 jets at a time off the shelf. Personally, I think it's a tall order, not gonna happen.

We're gonna have to be satisfied with batch orders off the shelf. At least another 36 is a given, chances of a 3rd batch of 36 are reduced (purely because we're looking too far into the future) but still likely. But a local production line is not happening with such piecemeal orders.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

A production line for 36 jets - this is going from being a bad joke to a cruel joke.

The concept of 'assured orders' into the future is very shaky...MoD has no rationalized spending plan, as demonstrated over the last 15 years by their unwillingness to spend at a rate of about $2B/year to procure a new foreign fighter platform with full ToT.

It'll come down to whether Dassault can convince its shareholders to accept this much risk...at a time when Middle Eastern customers are buying 80 jets at a time off the shelf. Personally, I think it's a tall order, not gonna happen.

We're gonna have to be satisfied with batch orders off the shelf. At least another 36 is a given, chances of a 3rd batch of 36 are reduced (purely because we're looking too far into the future) but still likely. But a local production line is not happening with such piecemeal orders.

I think they are creating conditions so that USA walks out on its own and then we can happily buy RAFALES

We will not buy F 18 because of the fear of Sanctions

US wants us to dump Russia immediately and that is not going to happen

So whenever Russia antagonizes the Americans , India will have to pay the price

Buying F 18s is like walking in a Trap

 

[Parthu]

I think they are creating conditions so that USA walks out on its own and then we can happily buy RAFALES

There is nothing stopping you from placing a repeat order under G2G terms if buying Rafales is all you want. Follow-on orders do not require tenders.

We have to sit through the whole drama of a tender purely because we want ToT clauses added in. But as Dassault itself has said, any order for <100 jets cannot make ToT viable. So the tender itself is unlikely to fructify, with or without Americans.

We will not buy F 18 because of the fear of Sanctions

Yet that doesn't seem to stop us from buying AH-64s, CH-47s, C-17s, C-130Js, P-8Is, MH-60Rs, MQ-9Bs,...and very possibly F/A-18s for Navy?

Not to mention engines for LCA Mk-1, Mk-1A, Tejas Mk-2, AMCA Mk-1 and let's not even start looking at the Navy and their US turbines for Frigates, Carriers etc.

If there was genuine fear of sanctions, we wouldn't entangle our indigenous programs with American suppliers.

US wants us to dump Russia immediately and that is not going to happen

Actually, they want us to dump Russians over a 10-15 year period.

Which is very likely to happen anyway, even without US insistence - purely because Russian platforms increasingly do not meet the qualitative requirements of Indian forces and in most cases where affordability takes precedence, indigenous solutions are becoming available. The only real areas where Russian involvement is likely to continue beyond 2035 is in strategic programs where they are no alternative suppliers for one reason or another i.e. nuclear submarine technologies.

But the US has always turned a blind eye to this field of cooperation between India & Russia - even though a lot of it is in violation of NPT. There is a good deal of understanding in a lot of strategic matters.