MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[Hydra]

You have written a paragraph of 10 lines but mixed up so many themes

1 Strong and Weak Nations

2 Offensive weapons for Uncivilized people

3 Money diverted from defence to social welfare and Research And Development

4 LCA and Arjun being bad and being " panned " in the same sentence

If I have hurt you inadvertently then I apologize

1) pakistan navy invested money mainly money on sub to tackle much strong & superior IN till recently. Chinese & Russian did the same thing to tackle USN, in past. And now we started talking about subs over surface fleets after seeing the recent advancement of Chinese navy. Same thing goes to SAMs,only the country which lacks superior platform ( exception israel) only investing heavily on SAMs.

2) if you have offensive weapons with reach, you can hurt your enemy's infrastructure. Thats the only language countries like china will count.

3) our defense spending is decreasing ever year w. r. t our economy ,i dont think i need to explain anything further.

4)Oh really, i will stand with IAF & IN, not some keyboard warriors.

 

[Hydra]

OEM will agree to assemble just 1 aircraft even, if we are ready to pay the costs. They need to produce the CKDs and send it off. India Airforce Pays for import duty, GST and foreign OEM staff.

A 90 million USD jet will end up costing 150mil USD.

If the report is true, then i am interpreting like this "Conditions are in such way that only Mig29 with make up will made in to IAF". Which country will be ready to set up assembly line for mere 36 units? Only Russia . Which country will be ready to take payment in INR? Only Russia."

If they are really made these requirment with an intention to buy Rafale or F15EX, then that person/personals are either d*ck heads or they they seriously beleive that Dassault & Boeing were run by d*ck heads like HAL negotiating teams, who were desperate enough to sell an engineering product for palm oil.

I dont think Dassault & Boeing or any other oem will be ready to take payment in INR instead of dollars. Only Russia will be agreeing for that, and a shitty Russia twin engine aircraft gonna make in to IAF.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

If the report is true, then i am interpreting like this "Conditions are in such way that only Mig29 with make up will made in to IAF". Which country will be ready to set up assembly line for mere 36 units? Only Russia . Which country will be ready to take payment in INR? Only Russia."

If they are really made these requirment with an intention to buy Rafale or F15EX, then that person/personals are either d*ck heads or they they seriously beleive that Dassault & Boeing were run by d*ck heads like HAL negotiating teams, who were desperate enough to sell an engineering product for palm oil.

I dont think Dassault & Boeing or any other oem will be ready to take payment in INR instead of dollars. Only Russia will be agreeing for that, and a shitty Russia twin engine aircraft gonna make in to IAF.

MMRCA and P75I are jokes now. I would suggest not to fret too much untill some solid development happens.

 

[vstol Jockey]

It is my hunch that the IN will go for over 60 SH F-18blk3 in two stages, First stage they will come for only IAC-2 and in the second stage, all Mig-29Ks will be transferred to IAF to be replaced by F-18s.

 

[Sathya]

It's nice to break 114 into half + half.
Otherwise by the time 60 + aircraft were built, F5 would be in production, we ll be still producing F4.2 for another 5 years.

Upgrades will be expensive, 4 + billion dollars can be saved by breaking the 114 deal into 2.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

It's nice to break 114 into half + half.
Otherwise by the time 60 + aircraft were built, F5 would be in production, we ll be still producing F4.2 for another 5 years.

Upgrades will be expensive, 4 + billion dollars can be saved by breaking the 114 deal into 2.

Not really. A single commitment needs to be signed. If Upgrade is that important then include that in the deal. Because without the commitment the first batch will become so expensive that any possible savings will vanish.

 

[Sathya]

Not really. A single commitment needs to be signed. If Upgrade is that important then include that in the deal. Because without the commitment the first batch will become so expensive that any possible savings will vanish.

Should be included only, much more smarter deal than before.
Otherwise even Rafale won't be able to make, despite 36+18 = 54 outright import.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Should be included only, much more smarter deal than before.
Otherwise even Rafale won't be able to make, despite 36+18 = 54 outright import.

A big confirmed commitment upfront will break the cost of setting up an assembly line (which will be upwards of 2 billion USD) over a larger order.

Producing a smaller order faster will mean the assembly line will not have the capability to sign a contract with technicians for say like 8 years.

And a short contract means technicians are harder to find and more costly to higher.

Understand this, we are not going to pay 114 cost upfront, it's going to be phased.

Therefore it's better to order everything at once. The best way out is all 114 to be assembled in India. Bring down overall cost.

 

[Sathya]

A big confirmed commitment upfront will break the cost of setting up an assembly line (which will be upwards of 2 billion USD) over a larger order.

Producing a smaller order faster will mean the assembly line will not have the capability to sign a contract with technicians for say like 8 years.

And a short contract means technicians are harder to find and more costly to higher.

Understand this, we are not going to pay 114 cost upfront, it's going to be phased.

Therefore it's better to order everything at once. The best way out is all 114 to be assembled in India. Bring down overall cost.

We ll see how they take the deal.

We should add all theses deal together and see how it went.. From initial 36 Rafales.

 

[kor4116]

French Dassault vs US Boeing — Mega fighter deal for IAF & Indian Navy could be split

114 to 57... now 54. But there is a second order.

It seems almost certain that the IAF has plans to procure the fighters in two deployments. Batch 1's quantity is now 54 fighters. 18 are procured overseas, the rest are manufactured in India. The quantity of batch 2 is unknown.

The article sees the business as a match between Dassault and Boeing, but weights Rafale as the ultimate winner.
According to the article, the IAF already has two air force facilities that can accommodate a total of 144 Rafales.

 

[Hydra]

French Dassault vs US Boeing — Mega fighter deal for IAF & Indian Navy could be split

114 to 57... now 54. But there is a second order.

It seems almost certain that the IAF has plans to procure the fighters in two deployments. Batch 1's quantity is now 54 fighters. 18 are procured overseas, the rest are manufactured in India. The quantity of batch 2 is unknown.

The article sees the business as a match between Dassault and Boeing, but weights Rafale as the ultimate winner.
According to the article, the IAF already has two air force facilities that can accommodate a total of 144 Rafales.

"Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency"

Mig 35 going to win this tender, nobody except Russians will be ready to take the payment in INR.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

"Asked what happens to the subsequent need for the IAF, the sources said that a follow-on order will be placed to the joint venture and this deal would be in Indian currency"

Mig 35 going to win this tender, nobody except Russians will be ready to take the payment in INR.

Lack of functional AESA kind of ensures that no Russian system is bought but then again you can argue that maybe we are delaying the MMRCA so that Russians can get their systems ready.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

A big confirmed commitment upfront will break the cost of setting up an assembly line (which will be upwards of 2 billion USD) over a larger order.

Producing a smaller order faster will mean the assembly line will not have the capability to sign a contract with technicians for say like 8 years.

And a short contract means technicians are harder to find and more costly to higher.

Understand this, we are not going to pay 114 cost upfront, it's going to be phased.

Therefore it's better to order everything at once. The best way out is all 114 to be assembled in India. Bring down overall cost.

There are no problems with the employees at Dassault. In France, contracts with employees are " indefinite " which means that you can't fire an employee for a simple economic reason unless there is an exceptional authorisation from the government.

One of the company's social goals is to retain its employees: Dassault's model of producing both military and civilian aircraft with employees able to switch from one type to the other makes it easier to achieve this goal. Indeed, the cycles of these two types of production are generally opposite.

In addition, the Rafale order book is sufficiently full to carry out part of the production in India, in addition to the Indian aircraft, without major inconveniences for the French chain. For example, if we had a production rate of 2 in France and 1 in India, it would be better than 3 and 0 because it would allow us to produce more Falcon aircraft in France and would give us production margins for the Rafale if new export contracts came in.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

There are no problems with the employees at Dassault. In France, contracts with employees are " indefinite " which means that you can't fire an employee for a simple economic reason unless there is an exceptional authorisation from the government.

One of the company's social goals is to retain its employees: Dassault's model of producing both military and civilian aircraft with employees able to switch from one type to the other makes it easier to achieve this goal. Indeed, the cycles of these two types of production are generally opposite.

In addition, the Rafale order book is sufficiently full to carry out part of the production in India, in addition to the Indian aircraft, without major inconveniences for the French chain. For example, if we had a production rate of 2 in France and 1 in India, it would be better than 3 and 0 because it would allow us to produce more Falcon aircraft in France and would give us production margins for the Rafale if new export contracts came in.

Now add if the political class will be willing to do it in France? Won't it be seen as taking away potential jobs ?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Now add if the political class will be willing to do it in France? Won't it be seen as taking away potential jobs ?

I don't think Dassault will want to create a second Rafale assembly line in France, and the first one is already saturated, so the chances of a line in India are quite high. Of course we need an order as a trigger event so that it is not seen as a net loss of jobs. But in fact Dassault is a private company and the political class has nothing to say.
After that, it's a matter of management, the fact of producing Falcons in India should facilitate sales in your country, and we are sufficiently proud of the Rafale to think that the IAF will do everything to get more of them.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I don't think Dassault will want to create a second Rafale assembly line in France, and the first one is already saturated, so the chances of a line in India are quite high. Of course we need an order as a trigger event so that it is not seen as a net loss of jobs. But in fact Dassault is a private company and the political class has nothing to say.
After that, it's a matter of management, the fact of producing Falcons in India should facilitate sales in your country, and we are sufficiently proud of the Rafale to think that the IAF will do everything to get more of them.

These all points work if the facility in India is a Dassault facility or will it be valid for a Indian partner led facility too?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

These all points work if the facility in India is a Dassault facility or will it be valid for a Indian partner led facility too?

It's valid for DRAL but not for HAL...

 

[Ankit Kumar]

It's valid for DRAL but not for HAL...

Say a new facility with a less controversial company in India ? Maybe Mahindra or Tata ?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Say a new facility with a less controversial company in India ? Maybe Mahindra or Tata ?

No, Dassault's philosophy is that small is beautiful. Dassault is only 11000 employees and the military part of Dassault is only 3500 people, moreover Dassault has already invested in DRAL in particular for the training of the employees, if one imposes to him another company than DRAL that will add several years to the delays.

 

[Hydra]

Lack of functional AESA kind of ensures that no Russian system is bought but then again you can argue that maybe we are delaying the MMRCA so that Russians can get their systems ready.

Tell who will take payment in INR? Neither Boeing or Rafale or even EF is not that much desperate to sell the jet to India.

@Picdelamirand-oil are you willing to take payment in INR instead of dollar or Euro, post 2030 for 57 jets?