Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion


Indigenously developed liquid-fueled ramjet technology is planned for ground and ship-based launching systems with a maximum range of 175 km. Future variants will be for anti-AWACS and anti-radiation missiles launched from LCA Tejas.
 
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The mind-boggling range mentioned by DRDO is 190 to 340km with different altitudes. After the acquisition of this missile, the IAF will completely dominate this region, that's for sure. Interesting time for DRDO :cool:
 
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TARGET said:

The mind-boggling range mentioned by DRDO is 190 to 340km with different altitudes. After the acquisition of this missile, the IAF will completely dominate this region, that's for sure. Interesting time for DRDO :cool:
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Doesn't mean much in actual combat. A decent mass produced cheaper AAM with superior seeker, better battery higher g endurance and a decent no escape zone of like 50-60km is all that is needed.

There's a reason Americans aren't exactly rushing to create a 200km A2A missile, nor the Russians are.

You can have 150km long range missile but you will need to turn on the radar and keep it on a lock untill the missile travels half the distance, so that it can start its own seeker, saving the battery on board.

And that time is long enough for the targetted aircrafts rwr to come into action. And because the seeker head doesn't really have very wide fov , the targetted aircraft will 9/10 times escape. Unless the aircraft is ready to maintain the radar lock for entire duration. That puts the aircraft itself in other dangers , because it's not going to be 1 vs 1 fight.

So all this talk of long range a2a missile is useless trash by people having no idea of how actual combat happen.

And no, the missiles were not ordered after Balakot. It was ordered because the 10-15 year shelf life of previous batch was coming to an end.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Doesn't mean much in actual combat. A decent mass produced cheaper AAM with superior seeker, better battery higher g endurance and a decent no escape zone of like 50-60km is all that is needed.

There's a reason Americans aren't exactly rushing to create a 200km A2A missile, nor the Russians are.

You can have 150km long range missile but you will need to turn on the radar and keep it on a lock untill the missile travels half the distance, so that it can start its own seeker, saving the battery on board.

And that time is long enough for the targetted aircrafts rwr to come into action. And because the seeker head doesn't really have very wide fov , the targetted aircraft will 9/10 times escape. Unless the aircraft is ready to maintain the radar lock for entire duration. That puts the aircraft itself in other dangers , because it's not going to be 1 vs 1 fight.

So all this talk of long range a2a missile is useless trash by people having no idea of how actual combat happen.

And no, the missiles were not ordered after Balakot. It was ordered because the 10-15 year shelf life of previous batch was coming to an end.
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You seem to be very certain that long-range anti-aircraft missile systems are useless, but I'm not sure how sure you are of that. In that case, the S400 48N6 missile system is totally useless. What about simultaneously launching numerous missiles at the same target? You'll admit that you were wrong if the Americans come with a brand-new, long-range A2A missile.
 
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TARGET said:
You seem to be very certain that long-range anti-aircraft missile systems are useless, but I'm not sure how sure you are of that. In that case, the S400 48N6 missile system is totally useless. What about simultaneously launching numerous missiles at the same target? You'll admit that you were wrong if the Americans come with a brand-new, long-range A2A missile.
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That's a 2 Ton missile. Ofcourse it is able to store enough big battery to take out targets like a fighter jet at 150-200km range. Plus it's has to be illuminated too.

You cannot fire a 2 Ton a2a missile to take out a target at 200km. And keep your Aircrafts radar illuminating the target.
 
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ASTRA-MK1-VS-VLSRSAM.jpg
I would like VL - SRSAM Mk1 and Mk2 based on the analogous Astra Mk1 and Mk2.

The Mk2 based on a dual pulse motor will give a longer range to VL SRSAM of upto 25km. Then we could in future replace the Shtil1 system from Talwars, Delhi's and Shivaliks with something better.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Doesn't mean much in actual combat. A decent mass produced cheaper AAM with superior seeker, better battery higher g endurance and a decent no escape zone of like 50-60km is all that is needed.

There's a reason Americans aren't exactly rushing to create a 200km A2A missile, nor the Russians are.

You can have 150km long range missile but you will need to turn on the radar and keep it on a lock untill the missile travels half the distance, so that it can start its own seeker, saving the battery on board.

And that time is long enough for the targetted aircrafts rwr to come into action. And because the seeker head doesn't really have very wide fov , the targetted aircraft will 9/10 times escape. Unless the aircraft is ready to maintain the radar lock for entire duration. That puts the aircraft itself in other dangers , because it's not going to be 1 vs 1 fight.

So all this talk of long range a2a missile is useless trash by people having no idea of how actual combat happen.

And no, the missiles were not ordered after Balakot. It was ordered because the 10-15 year shelf life of previous batch was coming to an end.
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SFDR based missile is meant to take out AWACS, aerial tankers and other slow moving support aircrafts.
Against fighter Astra mk1, mk2 will be used and hopefully 3 pulsed missile is in development as reported by some.
 
Arpuism said:
SFDR based missile is meant to take out AWACS, aerial tankers and other slow moving support aircrafts.
Against fighter Astra mk1, mk2 will be used and hopefully 3 pulsed missile is in development as reported by some.
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The problem at targetting something say 100km inside enemy airspace will always be Identification.

That thing inside enemy airspace can well be an armed Su30MKI. You don't have much options to see a 10m^2 signature and decide who is it.

Ofcourse in certain conditions extra long range a2a missiles will be extremely useful. No doubt. But its overall utility is being exaggerated imo.
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
The problem at targetting something say 100km inside enemy airspace will always be Identification.

That thing inside enemy airspace can well be an armed Su30MKI. You don't have much options to see a 10m^2 signature and decide who is it.

Ofcourse in certain conditions extra long range a2a missiles will be extremely useful. No doubt. But its overall utility is being exaggerated imo.
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Bombers, awacs, tankers, transport aircraft etc have much bigger rcs than even Su 30 sized fighters and they are quiet slow so can be identified & targeted. Moreover, such platforms in Chinese inventories are mostly copies of older Soviet origin platforms so IAF will not have much problem identifying them.
If IAF fighters can identify J-20 exercising deep inside tibet from inside our territory than certainly identifying bigger older platforms is not going to be a issue for them.
SFDR will be a great asset against JH-7, H-6, Y-9, Y-20 etc.
 
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Arpuism said:
Bombers, awacs, tankers, transport aircraft etc have much bigger rcs than even Su 30 sized fighters and they are quiet slow so can be identified & targeted. Moreover, such platforms in Chinese inventories are mostly copies of older Soviet origin platforms so IAF will not have much problem identifying them.
If IAF fighters can identify J-20 exercising deep inside tibet from inside our territory than certainly identifying bigger older platforms is not going to be a issue for them.
SFDR will be a great asset against JH-7, H-6, Y-9, Y-20 etc.
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Now you are talking about something which happened but the possible causes were actually different. I won't go into that.

Simply stating that very long range a2a missile (not Sam) has very limited practical use, because even with a powerful bars radar, just identification of a possible threat is not enough. The radar needs to provide a firing solution, means calculate the possible place the target should be when the a2a missile will be close enough to engage its own seekers. Now that level of illumination can now be easily picked up by rwr of even the oldest and slowest moving transport aircraft. What it means it that the Su30 while illuminating the slower moving big aircraft, will give away it's position. And that is a thread to it. Serious threat. And usually it doesn't play out this way.

Again I say that in certain specific conditions the long range a2a missile will be extremely useful. I do not deny that. But those situations are going to be extremely rare. While we may need 6000-7000 Astra Mk1/mk2. We will hardly need 50-100 SFDR based...
 
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Ankit Kumar said:
Now you are talking about something which happened but the possible causes were actually different. I won't go into that.

Simply stating that very long range a2a missile (not Sam) has very limited practical use, because even with a powerful bars radar, just identification of a possible threat is not enough. The radar needs to provide a firing solution, means calculate the possible place the target should be when the a2a missile will be close enough to engage its own seekers. Now that level of illumination can now be easily picked up by rwr of even the oldest and slowest moving transport aircraft. What it means it that the Su30 while illuminating the slower moving big aircraft, will give away it's position. And that is a thread to it. Serious threat. And usually it doesn't play out this way.

Again I say that in certain specific conditions the long range a2a missile will be extremely useful. I do not deny that. But those situations are going to be extremely rare. While we may need 6000-7000 Astra Mk1/mk2. We will hardly need 50-100 SFDR based...
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Got to be ready for even specific cases which can define battles. In future net centric warfare the targeting fighter may not need to reveal its position. Even psychological advantage of having certain weapons play a huge role on enemy planning. nuclear weapons are meant to be not used at all but it’s necessary.
Anyway huge rcs of Su 30mki gives its position easily so better put long range weapons on it so it may operate from safer distances while other smallers rcs fighters do the riskier job.
 
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TARGET said:

The mind-boggling range mentioned by DRDO is 190 to 340km with different altitudes. After the acquisition of this missile, the IAF will completely dominate this region, that's for sure. Interesting time for DRDO :cool:
Click to expand...

Generally when people look at those figures they think of range

I think of its NEZ

SFDR whole point is energy management which in turn leads to a expanded NEZ

If any unfortunate aircraft gets into the NEZ , it's escape probability will be low , because the missile will possess enough reserve to generate the kinematics performance required to defeat any attempts at out maneuvering

To think in terms of range for a AAM is a frutile effort of sorts because of the ambiguity in terms of the associated parameters
 
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The seeker of a bvraam is turned on generally 20-30 kms or thereabouts

It is not turned on previous to that unless it is fired in LOBL or in mad dog mode

INS with the GNC logic implemented (generally 2 types + modifications ) and subsequently the mid course updates ensures that the missile ends up in the calculated interception path to target , at a certain point in the interception path close to estimated target cross over the seeker actives which generally is within range to achieve lock on post search
 
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Arpuism said:
SFDR based missile is meant to take out AWACS, aerial tankers and other slow moving support aircrafts.
Against fighter Astra mk1, mk2 will be used and hopefully 3 pulsed missile is in development as reported by some.
Click to expand...

No

SFDR will be more potent than Astra mk1 mk2 in terms of kinematic performance and NEZ
 
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warmonger said:
Can't the target be fed through the network of radars rather than from the fighter?
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Ground based radars will have limitations against a target beyond Himalayas. Will have to depend on awacs. Operating well within our airspace.

But yes in that ideal scene when we have a relatively integrated air defence Command, that is possible. By integration I don't simply mean plug and play, there needs to be true sensor fusion.
 
Also there is IFF onboard all fighters , it's for a specific purpose - to determine (identification) friend or foe , in case no response SOP is it is hostile
 
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hellbent said:
Generally when people look at those figures they think of range

I think of its NEZ

SFDR whole point is energy management which in turn leads to a expanded NEZ

If any unfortunate aircraft gets into the NEZ , it's escape probability will be low , because the missile will possess enough reserve to generate the kinematics performance required to defeat any attempts at out maneuvering

To think in terms of range for a AAM is a frutile effort of sorts because of the ambiguity in terms of the associated parameters
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The total time where it's motors and batteries both are simultaneously functional. That's the range we should keep in mind. Will give us fairly accurate idea.
 
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