MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions
- Thread starter Picdelamirand-oil
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@Picdelamirand-oil I heard that past 2012 all Rafale airframe are equipped with M-88-4E.
How correct is it?
Yes, as the reactor is modular (21 modules) and the modifications concerned the high-pressure compressor and the high-pressure turbine, it was easy to retrofit all the M88s to extend their operational life.
Does it mean Indian Rafael have M88-4E?
Also I heard M88-4Es have higher output rating. At 90 KN.
We have a two-phased plan for the air fight. One to put up a fight, the other to defeat.
The first bit is well on its way, we just have a few more years to get through in some cases, like the HPR and satellites.
By 2029-30, we will have established everything necessary to fight China, even the form we will see in 2030 and beyond.
The second bit will require another decade, 'cause we are short of jets and tech.
Nope. Just longer life and better SFC with the same thrust rating. M-88-3 was the version with higher dry/wet(60KN/90KN) power. But it was slightly wider and required bigger air intakes on Rafale for better/higher air-flow. So far, no one has taken this offer though UAE was quite interested in it.
Yes, this means that the Indian Rafales have M88-4Es.
No, the thrust of the M88-4E is not 90 KN. There was a technological improvement in 2010. With this improvement we could do two different things: either increase the thrust of the M88 without changing its maintainability and service life, or keep the same thrust and improve its maintainability and increasing its service life by 60%. France chose the second option, and that's what we're selling.
A prototype M88 with 9t thrust was developed to demonstrate its feasibility to the UAE, but this engine absorbs a greater mass of air than the conventional M88 and requires a slight modification to the air intakes. The current air intakes allow the M88 to be pushed up to 8.3 t. For the Téjas, the M88 can be pushed much further because the diameter of the M88 is only 69 cm whereas that of the F-404 is 89 cm, and the length of the M88 is 50 cm shorter than that of the F-404. The M88 was designed as a family of engines with a core that could be used without changing from 7.5t to 11.5t. It is a modified M88 that will power the NGF prototype with 11t of thrust until the definitive engine is developed.
By NGF do you mean FCAS ? And if your requirements are met by a higher iteration delivering 11.5 ton thrust why do you need to develop a definitive TF ?
The engine of the NGF (which is the piloted aircraft of the FCAS programme) will be more technologically advanced than the M88, and will also have a variable cycle, which will improve its range by 30%.
Sounds similar to choice of EPE or EDE upgrade of F414.
Very much possible.
F-404IN flown by tejas is also an uprated variant of F404 having 85 KN thurst. Typically F404 has 75KN. It was done by increasing compression ratios in high pressure chamber and letting in higher airflow.
I believe same can be done with M88-4E. Higher pressure works against durability in engines but if engine life is already high, it is compensated.
Also M88-4E is about 180 KG lighter than F404 so having a little lesser thurst is compensated by having less weight to carry around.
HAL should investigate use of M88 variants for Mk1A variant of tejas. I think that can be done right away. Then AMCA which is some time away can also benefit from 11.5 tonne variant.
Having one common engine across a number of your jets save a lot of headache. India has requirement for 1000 engines or so may be a common manufacturing plant can also be considered.
AMCA being a stealth FA , would require major modifications in the profile of existing tech assuming we go in for a variant of the M-88 which the French members here are suggesting would happen in case DRDO / GTRE opts for a JV with SAFRAN.
Whether it is possible or if we're pursuing that line is a question mark for I've a feeling we're more interested in what SAFRAN's developing for their FCAS / SCAF project .
Now we know the French won't commit to parting with tech of their crown jewels but whether elements of it can be shared for a cost is possibly a line MoD would be exploring .
Otherwise it makes no sense for the JV not to have materialised till date.
What's your opinion on the above post ? @Picdelamirand-oil
You will never be able to get a fifth gen engine unless you make one yourself. Ask China. What you need is an engine with W/T ratio of 10+, nozzels to control heat signature and thermal management technology.
You can use 11.5 t M88-4e as a spring board to develop an engine fit for AMCA. May not be as good as western engines but it will be a good start.
Dassault was ready with HAL, but they refused to give a warranty on jest built by HAL witout any possibility to check the HAL quality measures.... Anyone else would have had the same reaction, including Eurofighter.
No, Rafale is not so costly. The 12 on option for Qatar were selled 92$ million/unit (1.1 billions for 12 jets).
Stop dreaming IAF purchasing another medium range west fighter, specially when they already have the best, and with Indian Navy purchasing it.
I'm not involved in the negotiations, but I have the impression that something is stalling. From my point of view, I can see that we're making efforts on our side, and I even remember a slide on which we proposed transferring 100% of the ToT + the know-how + the knowledge of why.
When we tried to revive the Kaveri, our proposal to replace the core by taking the M88 core, which was a cheap solution, was rejected. So we proposed correcting the defects with you, but Indian rules stipulate that the foreign share cannot exceed 49%, no doubt to preserve IP rights, so we proposed a package in which DRDO had 51%, but DRDO refused because it thought it was too expensive. Now we're trying to make a new engine together (and not a derivative of the M88) but I don't know if it will work.
With the various improve in the M88 (best engine monitoring, returns from the field, improvements in materials and manufacturing process) the french air force had (and always have) the choice between :
More thrust with the same life span.
Or
Most life span with the same thrust. French air force choose that option. M88-4E is also called M88 CGP (Cout Global de Possession = Overall Cost of Ownership)
Such a M88 can probably have a 85 to 90Kn Thrust, with reduced life.
At the beginning (saying duringthe late 80's or the very early 90's) there was 3 M88 in the pipe :
The 7.5T one, M88-2
The 9T one, M88-3
The 11T one, M88-4.
The first is integrated on Rafale and is regularly modernized (consumption, cost, life span).
At least a prototyp of the second one was built and tested.
The last one, 11T with the then technological level may probably deliver 12T or more, but remains a paper project. Unless if it is this engine or a direct derivative that will be used to power the SCAF prototyp....
Yes, Dassault never wanted to work with HAL. That's a fact. But do they even want to work with any private player? That's the question both Dassault and GOI need to address.
Earlier, maybe yes! But now, they are doing their best to win this MRFA tender. The stakes are high, so never say never
We know the exact cost of Rafale. But Euro Consortium may offer a better deal with better TOT. So, let's wait and watch.
I have always said that Rafale is the best option for us. Have you seen me saying otherwise? However, there are two conditions for this new MRFA tender:
1. Work with an Indian private entity for fighter jet manufacturing in a 50:50 JV. Dassault don't look to be ready for that.
2. Share the source code of radar/mission computers with IAF, so that they could upgrade the jet/integrate any weapon on the fly at BRD level aka the 'Jaguar model".
Euro Consortium is looking for aggressive and more tantalizing offer for us. Dassault's complacency may come to bite then in their backside. Don't take MRFA 2.0 for granted.
If I'm not mistaken some time back you wrote that SAFRAN had earlier developed a TF with a thrust nearing 110 or 120 KN & in all probability it's that TF which would be what the proposed JV will be all about . Now you say it'd be a new engine.
Yes, Dassault never wanted to work with HAL. That's a fact. But do they even want to work with any private player? That's the question both Dassault and GOI need to address.
Earlier, maybe yes! But now, they are doing their best to win this MRFA tender. The stakes are high, so never say never
We know the exact cost of Rafale. But Euro Consortium may offer a better deal with better TOT. So, let's wait and watch.
Frankly I don't think Dassault will share what GoI wants . The Eurofighter at this moment is an orphan with zero future as all the partner countries have hitched themselves to the F-35 bandwagon.
Perhaps GoI sees an opportunity there to get rights to the entire program & make it it's own like the Jaguar which is the reason I wrote the ACM let the cat out of the bag earlier.
The only issue is whether Germany complies with what we want. I don't see an issue with the UK and Italy who know this program is headed nowhere & may want to recover whatever they can by way of investment.
Excellent post
. This is exactly what I'm trying to allude to our esteemed French members. But I don't think they're quite getting what I want to convey! Thanks for being so explicit