MMRCA 2.0 - Updates and Discussions

[randomradio]

An unpopular opinion, I am still a big critic of LCA mk1 & mk1a ,the though it's just trainer jet equivalent (of course it's on steroid) that program gonna yeild a knowledge pool & expertise to the domestic industry many fold than any MRFA program going to bring.

That's one of the main reasons the IAF did go for LCA Mk1A. But also 'cause it suffices for air defense and some strike roles relative to the capabilities of our two main adversaries. Both our main adversaries have 4th gen jets as the biggest components of their forces and it will stay that way until the 2060s, and the LCA has a lot of advantages against their much older designs due to its small RCS, high serviceability and low turnaround time. Considering these advantages coming in at such a low cost, and the obvious benefit to the industry which even you agree with, it's obviously a good decision.

Due to its lower lifespan, the upgrade cycle is much faster. By 2045-50 it will receive AMCA tech.

 

[randomradio]

???
Not sure early Rafale will be able to deal with UAV.
As the UAV price and perf is not known, difficult to anticipate the number of UAV a Rafale can deal with.

Yeah, it says "man-in-the-loop," so either RPV or semi-autonomous.

If it's RPV, 1 or 2 are the max. With semi, a few more at best. With fully autonomous drones, the numbers don't matter.

The Russians are planning on supplying fully autonomous drones someday based on pilot ranks. So the lowest ranked pilot gets 2, the highest ranked gets 16. Things could change though.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Is it interesting?​

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Two respected former AIF officers (Air Marshal Anil Chopra and Sqnd Ldr Sameer Joshi) have spoken of the Rafale's good stealth, at least in the forward quarters. It's much better than anything India currently has.

On the other hand, Sqnd Ldr Sameer Joshi clearly states that the PLAAF represents a considerable threat.

He mentions 1,000 fourth-generation fighters and 200 J-20s at present, and a target of 500 J-20s by 2030.

He makes it clear that without a massive increase in fighter numbers, there is no way the IAF can withstand a sustained PLAAF assault.
The introduction of Super Sukhoi or Tejas Mk1As (if they are introduced on schedule) will simply keep the IAF at its current strength of 29 or 31 squadrons.

Without another type of aircraft being built in India by another company (which is in no way HAL), there will be no increase in strength.
I have the greatest doubts about the timetables proposed by ADA or HAL, including for the Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA. The solution is no longer to put all your eggs in HAL's basket.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

How well do you assume Praetorian DASS stacks up against Spectra? With the British & Italian Typhoons more likely to receive the ECRS MK2 radar ahead of French receiving RBE2-XG, combined with Praetorian EVO the Typhoon looks set to receive a much-needed tech boost right before MRFA heats up.

UK to fly Eurofighter ECRS Mk 2 E-Scan radar ‘in coming weeks'​

Among the various U.K.-specific AESA development projects leading to the ECRS Mk 2 was one known as Bright Adder, itself developed from the Advanced Radar Targeting System (ARTS) that was developed for a potential Tornado GR4 upgrade. After being tested on the Tornado, hardware was adapted as Bright Adder, now intended for the Typhoon, but which was only ever tested on the ground.

The prototype ECRS Mk 2 now fitted in a British Typhoon (specifically, test aircraft BS116), reportedly includes the Bright Adder’s antenna with the ‘back end’ of an ECRS Mk 0.

I believe that the British don't want to throw away the developments they made for the Bright Adder, which was initially designed for the Tornado and which added science fiction EA (Electronic Attack) functions, such as frying the components of the opposing radar.

So they went back to this antenna and the ECRS.Mk 0 back-end, but combined with the antenna, which physically has additional capabilities.

There is software to use these capabilities, and it's not trivial. So if you take the ECRS MK 0 hardware and integrate your special Bright Adder software into the operational software, that's already an achievement. What's more, I notice that the Tornado didn't have a repositioner and that the ECRS Mk 0 doesn't have one either...

Bearing in mind that the ECRS Mk 0 back-end that it uses doesn't have the new multi-channel digital receiver and the new LRI transmitter/receiver of the ECRS Mk 1, and that I'd be surprised if the antenna of the Bright Adder technology demonstrator had GaN modules because it was developed a long time ago (2010), so we've got a makeshift prototype that will be upgraded to its final configuration as and when it falls into service.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Is it interesting?​

He's giving an explanation on the F-5 upgrades & addressing questions on whether the older versions especially the ones equipped GaA AESA radars are obsolete apart from the fact that Rafales are perceived to be expensive.

 

[YoungWolf]

the ECRS Mk 0 doesn't have one either...

I'm surprised that the ECRS Mk0 doesn't have a repositioner, as the Captor-M is definitely mounted on one. I was reasonably confident that ECRS MK2 will be on a repositioner too, because not having it would be illogical while upgrading from Captor-M. So I did some digging and came across this:

In terms of technology, the ECRS MK2 has a swashplate repositioner, an articulated mounting that means the antenna can be swung to face at far greater angles off the centreline. This allows a much wider field of regard, with a significant boost in angular (azimuth) coverage.
Eurofighter claims that the repositionable array provides a field of regard that is "some 50% wider than traditional fixed-plate systems".

The above excerpt is from an article by The War Zone British Eurofighter Finally Gets Advanced Swashplate AESA Radar

The ECRS MK2 development certainly looks interesting and I definitely need to read up on the Bright Adder. By the way, will the RBE2-XG be mounted on a swashplate or will it remain fixed?

 

[Rajput Lion]

I'm surprised that the ECRS Mk0 doesn't have a repositioner, as the Captor-M is definitely mounted on one. I was reasonably confident that ECRS MK2 will be on a repositioner too, because not having it would be illogical while upgrading from Captor-M. So I did some digging and came across this:

In terms of technology, the ECRS MK2 has a swashplate repositioner, an articulated mounting that means the antenna can be swung to face at far greater angles off the centreline. This allows a much wider field of regard, with a significant boost in angular (azimuth) coverage.
Eurofighter claims that the repositionable array provides a field of regard that is "some 50% wider than traditional fixed-plate systems".

The above excerpt is from an article by The War Zone British Eurofighter Finally Gets Advanced Swashplate AESA Radar

The ECRS MK2 development certainly looks interesting and I definitely need to read up on the Bright Adder. By the way, will the RBE2-XG be mounted on a swashplate or will it remain fixed?

RBE2 XG will be fixed array. However, Rafale F5 is supposed to have conformal arrays on its cheeks and all-across its frame, which shall provide 360° radar coverage(like we conceived for our FGFA project).

PS: Eurofighter Consortium have learned from their past MMRCA mistake and this time they are really fighting hard. Everyone knows that both IAF & GOI want more Rafale. But Dassault doesn't want to share Rafale's manufacturing tech with any Indian company. This is where the Euro Consortium is willing to go whole distance and are offering Typhoon at a much better price and much better tech/TOT sharing with Indian firms. Clearly if the French don't come down from their high-ground, then they're up for a rude awakening when India selects Typhoon for MRFA despite Rafale being the best jet of its generation. It'll be sad as for us Rafale is far better and versatile than Typhoon. But if it happens, then all blame is upon the French. Period.

 

[_Anonymous_]

RBE2 XG will be fixed array. However, Rafale F5 is supposed to have conformal arrays on its cheeks and all-across its frame, which shall provide 360° radar coverage(like we conceived for our FGFA project).

PS: Eurofighter Consortium have learned from their past MMRCA mistake and this time they are really fighting hard. Everyone knows that both IAF & GOI want more Rafale. But Dassault doesn't want to share Rafale's manufacturing tech with any Indian company. This is where the Euro Consortium is willing to go whole distance and are offering Typhoon at a much better price and much better tech/TOT sharing with Indian firms. Clearly if the French don't come down from their high-ground, then they're up for a rude awakening when India selects Typhoon for MRFA despite Rafale being the best jet of its generation. It'll be sad as for us Rafale is far better and versatile than Typhoon. But if it happens, then all blame is upon the French. Period.

Yeah , we can induct the Eurofighter & spend the next few decades training our future batches of aeronautical scientists engineers & technicians on the intricacies of it developing a new iteration of DARIN upgrades just like we did the Jaguars.

The ACM himself let the cat out of the bag & there're old scores to be settled with Dassault.

Meanwhile availablity during actual war fighting - what's that ?

 

[_Anonymous_]

Two respected former AIF officers (Air Marshal Anil Chopra and Sqnd Ldr Sameer Joshi) have spoken of the Rafale's good stealth, at least in the forward quarters. It's much better than anything India currently has.

On the other hand, Sqnd Ldr Sameer Joshi clearly states that the PLAAF represents a considerable threat.

He mentions 1,000 fourth-generation fighters and 200 J-20s at present, and a target of 500 J-20s by 2030.

He makes it clear that without a massive increase in fighter numbers, there is no way the IAF can withstand a sustained PLAAF assault.
The introduction of Super Sukhoi or Tejas Mk1As (if they are introduced on schedule) will simply keep the IAF at its current strength of 29 or 31 squadrons.

Without another type of aircraft being built in India by another company (which is in no way HAL), there will be no increase in strength.
I have the greatest doubts about the timetables proposed by ADA or HAL, including for the Tejas Mk2 and the AMCA. The solution is no longer to put all your eggs in HAL's basket.

I think both you @Rajput Lion & you know who , ought to see this podcast. It gives you as close a picture of reality as the speakers can without opening all their cards on our air warfare options.

Of particular interest of the 3 speakers is what AVM Subramaniam & Dr Tewari have to say. It should temper your optimism particularly the now hopelessly insane optimism of RST.

 

[Hydra]

RBE2 XG will be fixed array. However, Rafale F5 is supposed to have conformal arrays on its cheeks and all-across its frame, which shall provide 360° radar coverage(like we conceived for our FGFA project).

PS: Eurofighter Consortium have learned from their past MMRCA mistake and this time they are really fighting hard. Everyone knows that both IAF & GOI want more Rafale. But Dassault doesn't want to share Rafale's manufacturing tech with any Indian company. This is where the Euro Consortium is willing to go whole distance and are offering Typhoon at a much better price and much better tech/TOT sharing with Indian firms. Clearly if the French don't come down from their high-ground, then they're up for a rude awakening when India selects Typhoon for MRFA despite Rafale being the best jet of its generation. It'll be sad as for us Rafale is far better and versatile than Typhoon. But if it happens, then all blame is upon the French. Period.

Blame Indian attitude of being cheap during negotiation if Rafale is not selected ,France or Dassault cannot take responsibility. EF,I don't think it's EW is upto the mark as compares to Rafale or even F15EX.

People like @vstol Jockey @Picdelamirand-oil @randomradio can tell hiw advance or inferior is EFT over Rfale. Do EFT have any meaningful air to ground capabilities compares to all other western aircrafts participating the tender.

I will pick F15EX anyday over EFT.

 

[randomradio]

RBE2 XG will be fixed array. However, Rafale F5 is supposed to have conformal arrays on its cheeks and all-across its frame, which shall provide 360° radar coverage(like we conceived for our FGFA project).

PS: Eurofighter Consortium have learned from their past MMRCA mistake and this time they are really fighting hard. Everyone knows that both IAF & GOI want more Rafale. But Dassault doesn't want to share Rafale's manufacturing tech with any Indian company. This is where the Euro Consortium is willing to go whole distance and are offering Typhoon at a much better price and much better tech/TOT sharing with Indian firms. Clearly if the French don't come down from their high-ground, then they're up for a rude awakening when India selects Typhoon for MRFA despite Rafale being the best jet of its generation. It'll be sad as for us Rafale is far better and versatile than Typhoon. But if it happens, then all blame is upon the French. Period.

It will require an extraordinary feat for Rafale to lose to the Typhoon at this point considering the future of both programs.

Typhoon is possibly on its last legs with the Tranche 4, whereas Rafale is still in its mid-life modernization 'cause of F5. While the Rafale's unit price could end up higher than Typhoon's, it will still beat it in LCC, never mind tthe more obvious technology, industrial participation, global logistics etc, what with all these new Rafale customers in the Middle East and ASEAN.

Anyway, Dassault seems to be fine with sharing tech with Indian partners. I mean, they want to build Falcons in India already.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I think both you @Rajput Lion & you know who , ought to see this podcast. It gives you as close a picture of reality as the speakers can without opening all their cards on our air warfare options.

Of particular interest of the 3 speakers is what AVM Subramaniam & Dr Tewari have to say. It should temper your optimism particularly the now hopelessly insane optimism of RST.

This is what I said last year, Feb. month in your India-China war scenario thread:

Now the problems for us:

1. With 36 Rafale we're seriously outgunned against J-20 and J-16. We should immediately order 2/3 more Rafale squadrons ASAP.

2. The real battle won't be one on one. AWACS, Jammers, Drones and multiple fighter combos would work together. It's much tougher to beat J-20/J-16 combo than any one type.

Our primary Air Superiority fighter is completely outclassed against both J-20 and J-16 in terms of Radar/IRST/BVR.

Su-30UPG with cutting edge GaN based EW(upcoming next year) QWIP IRST and AESA radar(coming in next 2-3 years), Astra2/3(operational in next few years) is a must to take on China.

Where was the optimism and how different was my analysis v/s ex-IAF pilots?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I'm surprised that the ECRS Mk0 doesn't have a repositioner, as the Captor-M is definitely mounted on one. I was reasonably confident that ECRS MK2 will be on a repositioner too, because not having it would be illogical while upgrading from Captor-M. So I did some digging and came across this:

In terms of technology, the ECRS MK2 has a swashplate repositioner, an articulated mounting that means the antenna can be swung to face at far greater angles off the centreline. This allows a much wider field of regard, with a significant boost in angular (azimuth) coverage.
Eurofighter claims that the repositionable array provides a field of regard that is "some 50% wider than traditional fixed-plate systems".

The above excerpt is from an article by The War Zone British Eurofighter Finally Gets Advanced Swashplate AESA Radar

The ECRS MK2 development certainly looks interesting and I definitely need to read up on the Bright Adder. By the way, will the RBE2-XG be mounted on a swashplate or will it remain fixed?

Yes the final ECRS MK2 will be with a repositioner, but for the moment the prototype is without. This show how long the development will be.

 

[_Anonymous_]

This is what I said last year, Feb. month in your India-China war scenario thread:

Where was the optimism and how different was my analysis v/s ex-IAF pilots?

2. The real battle won't be one on one. AWACS, Jammers, Drones and multiple fighter combos would work together. It's much tougher to beat J-20/J-16 combo than any one type.

Our primary Air Superiority fighter is completely outclassed against both J-20 and J-16 in terms of Radar/IRST/BVR.

Su-30UPG with cutting edge GaN based EW(upcoming next year) QWIP IRST and AESA radar(coming in next 2-3 years), Astra2/3(operational in next few years) is a must to take on China.

Not adequate numbers in the first instance. MKI UPG due in 2032.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Not adequate numbers in the first instance. MKI UPG due in 2032.

True. But as I said in the other thread, MKI has been very silently upgraded for the last few years since Swift Retreat. Against PAF, IAF validated the flight-performance, training, tactics and our ECM in a real hot-environment when 5 AIM-120C5 were coming for MKI's life. MKI defeating 5 AMRAAMs opened the eye of IAF towards MKI's true capabilities.

Thanks to new SDR, new weapons(Astra, Derby ER, ASRAAM et al), and new EW warfare suit with DR118 and upgraded ECM pods, MKI is in far better position now than what it was few years ago. MKI UPG. will be far far capable, though is some time away.

What Sameer Joshi and AVM sirs said was in-line with what I've said over the years. We hold an advantage over PLAAF because of our training/tactics and that advantage will remain with us for quite some time.

They also talked about quantity(the point you're alluding to as well). Well, Tejas MK1A/MK2 are exactly that. They'll give us quantity over the upcoming years. Yes, the path is very painful. But we won't be able to match the PLAAF in numbers without Tejas. The path towards 40+ squadrons goes through induction of more Tejas airframes. Period.

Now about IAF vs PLAAF: I've said this before and will say this again now. IAF is fully capable of taking on PLAAF even now and in the upcoming years with MK1A, MK2, MKI UPG., more jets via MRFA/gov-to-gov deal with a foreign OEM, AMCA(and hopefully Su-60MKI) our numbers shall substantially increase too.

Sameer Joshi sir also talked about PL-15. Well, we've Meteor, MICA, Derby-ER and Astra as its counter now. Our BVR missile arsenal as-of-now is formidable, no two ways about it. And with Astra MK2 going operation within next 2-3 years, we'll achieve parity with PLAAF even in this domain.

Needless sabre-rattling and all 'doom & gloom' is not necessary. Both IAF & GOI take the Chinese threat very highly. So do most of us.

 

[_Anonymous_]

True. But as I said in the other thread, MKI has been very silently upgraded for the last few years since Swift Retreat. Against PAF, IAF validated the flight-performance, training, tactics and our ECM in a real hot-environment when 5 AIM-120C5 were coming for MKI's life. MKI defeating 5 AMRAAMs opened the eye of IAF towards MKI's true capabilities.

Thanks to new SDR, new weapons(Astra, Derby ER, ASRAAM et al), and new EW warfare suit with DR118 and upgraded ECM pods, MKI is in far better position now than what it was few years ago. MKI UPG. will be far far capable, though is some time away.

I'd just say PLAAF isn't PAF & those upgrades may be good enough for the latter for the former we need what we'd be getting post 2030 which is late to begin with.

What Sameer Joshi and AVM sirs said was in-line with what I've said over the years. We hold an advantage over PLAAF because of our training/tactics and that advantage will remain with us for quite some time.

They also talked about quantity(the point you're alluding to as well). Well, Tejas MK1A/MK2 are exactly that. They'll give us quantity over the upcoming years. Yes, the path is very painful. But we won't be able to match the PLAAF in numbers without Tejas. The path towards 40+ squadrons goes through induction of more Tejas airframes. Period.

Now about IAF vs PLAAF: I've said this before and will say this again now. IAF is fully capable of taking on PLAAF even now and in the upcoming years with MK1A, MK2, MKI UPG., more jets via MRFA/gov-to-gov deal with a foreign OEM, AMCA(and hopefully Su-60MKI) our numbers shall substantially increase too.

Sameer Joshi sir also talked about PL-15. Well, we've Meteor, MICA, Derby-ER and Astra as its counter now. Our BVR missile arsenal as-of-now is formidable, no two ways about it. And with Astra MK2 going operation within next 2-3 years, we'll achieve parity with PLAAF even in this domain.

Needless sabre-rattling and all 'doom & gloom' is not necessary. Both IAF & GOI take the Chinese threat very highly. So do most of us.

Needless doom & gloom ??! Those Mk-1a's you're talking about given the current situation , we'd be lucky to feature half of them by 2030 & I mean the 83 nos we've contracted not the 97 nos where the deal is pending , leave aside the rest which even otherwise aren't projected to feature in the IAF before 2030 & that includes the MKI UPG.

Please spare us the leaps of imagination RST style what with the Su-60 etc . Isn't he insufferable enough on his own that you insist on joining him ?

Besides what offensive role do you expect the Tejas to play given they're short legged to begin with , hence Point Defence role . Ditto with the Jaguars. Haven't we had this debate last year as well ?

 

[Rajput Lion]

I'd just say PLAAF isn't PAF & those upgrades may be good enough for the latter for the former we need what we'd be getting post 2030 which is late to begin with.

MKI with the aforementioned upgrades is good enough to take on PLAAF. Of course, UPG. would be whole lot more capable.

Needless doom & gloom ??! Those Mk-1a's you're talking about given the current situation , we'd be lucky to feature half of them by 2030 & I mean the 83 nos we've contracted not the 97 nos where the deal is pending , leave aside the rest which even otherwise aren't projected to feature in the IAF before 2030 & that includes the MKI UPG.

If a war breaks out now, IAF can take on PLAAF. But since they're rapidly increasing numbers of J-20/J-16/J-10C, we need numbers to counter them. Over 300 Tejas(MK1A + MK2) would be our counter. If not in outright quality then at least in terms of quantity; which as they has a quality of its own

Please spare us the leaps of imagination RST style what with the Su-60 etc . Isn't he insufferable enough on his own that you insist on joining him ?

Fringe of imagination? Nope. Russia patented this few months back. It's coming and is essential for future MUM-T CCA operations. Take a look:

Here is the link of the full article: Russia Patents 2-seater Su-57 Stealth Fighter Jet

Besides what offensive role do you expect the Tejas to play given they're short legged to begin with , hence Point Defence role . Ditto with the Jaguars. Haven't we had this debate last year as well ?

Yes we indeed had! But maybe we need to discuss more regarding this topic. MK1A is good enough to play 'hide and seek' against PLAAF jets over the Himalayas terrain and thanks to its low RCS, good weapons package(Derby ER, Astra, ASRAAM), agility and GaN EW suite.......it will hold its own against them. Being single-engined jet, its sortie generation rates also would be much high than heavy-weights like MKI. Even if we deem it's not fit for the Chinese theater, we would keep it on the Pak front to stop any unwarranted incursions and keep the heavies on the Eastern side. In-short, MKIA is very good for what it was designed for, i.e , giving us numbers and being an advance interceptor.

MK2 would be as capable as current Rafale, as per our new ACM. So, even deep strikes within Tibet/China would be possible with it.

 

[_Anonymous_]

MKI with the aforementioned upgrades is good enough to take on PLAAF. Of course, UPG. would be whole lot more capable.

If a war breaks out now, IAF can take on PLAAF. But since they're rapidly increasing numbers of J-20/J-16/J-10C, we need numbers to counter them. Over 300 Tejas(MK1A + MK2) would be our counter. If not in outright quality then at least in terms of quantity; which as they has a quality of its own

Fringe of imagination? Nope. Russia patented this few months back. It's coming and is essential for future MUM-T CCA operations. Take a look:

View attachment 37111

Here is the link of the full article: Russia Patents 2-seater Su-57 Stealth Fighter Jet


Yes we indeed had! But maybe we need to discuss more regarding this topic. MK1A is good enough to play 'hide and seek' against PLAAF jets over the Himalayas terrain and thanks to its low RCS, good weapons package(Derby ER, Astra, ASRAAM), agility and GaN EW suite.......it will hold its own against them. Being single-engined jet, its sortie generation rates also would be much high than heavy-weights like MKI. Even if we deem it's not fit for the Chinese theater, we would keep it on the Pak front to stop any unwarranted incursions and keep the heavies on the Eastern side. In-short, MKIA is very good for what it was designed for, i.e , giving us numbers and being an advance interceptor.

MK2 would be as capable as current Rafale, as per our new ACM. So, even deep strikes within Tibet/China would be possible with it.

I personally feel I've said what I wanted to on this issue. No point going over the same repeatedly especially when there's been no welcome development to prompt such a reappraisal .

Besides my cut off date for a war has been / is / will be 2029-2031.

Anything after that is really immaterial to the discussion. They fall under the long term perspective plan or the IAF doctrine RST was orgasming about this morning. That's a separate discussion.

 

[Sathya]

I personally feel I've said what I wanted to on this issue. No point going over the same repeatedly especially when there's been no welcome development to prompt such a reappraisal .

Besides my cut off date for a war has been / is / will be 2029-2031.

Anything after that is really immaterial to the discussion. They fall under the long term perspective plan or the IAF doctrine RST was orgasming about this morning. That's a separate discussion.

Second Mk1 A seems to be out of factory.
Tiny beginning.. with big plans to follow..

Couple of months back, many news mentioned, forthcoming deals by December 2024.

Even without that, we seem to be doing whole lot on surveillance spectrum..

53 Space assets, 31 predator, on & off small quantity of radars, Awacs mk1a atleast will be functional by 2030.

Drone & loitering munitions news are often seen every month.

Artillery shell and ammo manufacturing in public + private companies are at full go.. .

Rocket forces are building up..

Cyber forces are getting formed..

Border infrastructure getting built.

C 295 getting delivered..

Awacs killer ( air - air brahmos)
Carrier killer ballistic missile ( ?? )
Submarine killer ( torpedo attached shaurya?)
Satellite killer missile ..

Air defense systems are also building up. .

I am not sure how much quantity of above mentioned will inducted by 2029-30 time.