The F-35 has essentially penetrated the European market almost entirely.
Who else is left? Small countries in the Balkans and the Baltics, some late bloomers like Portugal?
Only Spain has maintained some European loyalty.
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
The F-35 has essentially penetrated the European market almost entirely.
Who else is left? Small countries in the Balkans and the Baltics, some late bloomers like Portugal?
Only Spain has maintained some European loyalty.
This could be a criterion for extending our nuclear umbrella: extension only for those who have not bought an F-35.
This could be a criterion for extending our nuclear umbrella: extension only for those who have not bought an F-35.
Germany has been offered French nukes though.
You need to fight an enemy having 6000 hydrogen bombs, and countless tactical nukes, and howmany nuke u have to defend Europe from Russia?This could be a criterion for extending our nuclear umbrella: extension only for those who have not bought an F-35.
The French do have decent nukes. It's the brits who are dependent entirely on american nukes for their nuclear delivery response which is the funniest ting
Its, less than 300 nukes. Its enough for France, but not enough for entire Europe
France's deterrent is calculated to kill 80 million people. For a country with a population of 143.8 million, that's something to take into account.
That's not what deterrent is, its about vaporisin the enemy fully, US can do that to Russia or china ,China can do that to India, india can do that to pak, Russia can do that to Europe for sure, and probably to US.
France or UK can't do that to Europe, India cannot do that China i fear, Pak cannot do that to India.
Nothing on the table for IAF :
ByHT Correspondent
Mar 09, 2025 07:02 AM IST
NEW DELHI India has not looked at the F-35 option, and no offer has been made by the US so far, the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh said on Saturday, pointing out that buying a fighter plane was not the same as “buying a washing machine or refrigerator”.
Air Chief Marshal AP Singh said the IAF will analyse the recommendations of a top government committee on capability enhancement of the IAF to chart out a road map. (ANI PHOTO)
“We have not looked at it [F-35]. We are not going to buy a washing machine or a refrigerator for home that we can just say let’s buy this or that as it looks good...We must analyse an aircraft fully, see what the requirements are and what comes along with it. We have not given it a thought. No offer has been made till now,” Singh said, speaking at the India Today conclave.
In February, US President Donald Trump said America was paving the way to provide India the F-35 stealth fighters. The statement came during PM Narendra Modi’s visit to the US. It came at a time when India is firmly pushing ahead with an ambitious plan to develop an indigenous fifth-generation stealth fighter, or the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Russia has offered to jointly produce its Su-57 stealth fighter in the country, and the Indian Air Force is scouting for 114 multi-role fighter aircraft.
Singh said the IAF will analyse the recommendations of a top government committee on capability enhancement of the IAF to chart out a road map.
Defence secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh presented the report of the empowered committee to defence minister Rajnath Singh on March 3, days after the IAF chief admitted that the air force was “very badly off in numbers”, adding that it must induct 40 fighter jets every year to stay combat ready.
The report has recommended a raft of short and long-term measures to boost the capabilities of the IAF, which is grappling with a shortage of fighter squadrons, and pointed out that it was critical to enhance self-reliance in the aerospace sector through increased participation of the private sector to fill critical gaps.
“We need to accelerate the process [of indigenisation]. Our processes are a little slow. And we need to be ready for failures. In research and development, if you are not ready for failures, you will never succeed in time. If you try something and you are not succeeding, change your track quickly,” the air chief said.
In February, the IAF chief questioned the ability of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to meet the air force’s critical requirements in the backdrop of a lingering delay in the supply of the new light combat aircraft (LCA-Mk-1A), saying he had “no confidence” in the plane maker. The remarks, made during an interaction with HAL officials, were recorded by someone.
“This is ridiculous... Somebody is sneaking into what you are talking about privately. It is wrong. I was talking to my colleagues from HAL... We have trained together. My intention was to get to their conscience --- you are sitting here, and you must push yourself to reach there. The way it came out was not right...It was a friendly chat with test crew and engineers who I have worked with,” the IAF chief said on Saturday.
No F-35 offer from US on the table so far, says IAF chief
ByHT Correspondent
Mar 09, 2025 07:02 AM IST
Air Chief Marshal AP Singh said the IAF will analyse the recommendations of a top government committee on capability enhancement of the IAF to chart out a road map.
NEW DELHI India has not looked at the F-35 option, and no offer has been made by the US so far, the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal AP Singh said on Saturday, pointing out that buying a fighter plane was not the same as “buying a washing machine or refrigerator”.
Air Chief Marshal AP Singh said the IAF will analyse the recommendations of a top government committee on capability enhancement of the IAF to chart out a road map. (ANI PHOTO)
“We have not looked at it [F-35]. We are not going to buy a washing machine or a refrigerator for home that we can just say let’s buy this or that as it looks good...We must analyse an aircraft fully, see what the requirements are and what comes along with it. We have not given it a thought. No offer has been made till now,” Singh said, speaking at the India Today conclave.
In February, US President Donald Trump said America was paving the way to provide India the F-35 stealth fighters. The statement came during PM Narendra Modi’s visit to the US. It came at a time when India is firmly pushing ahead with an ambitious plan to develop an indigenous fifth-generation stealth fighter, or the advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), Russia has offered to jointly produce its Su-57 stealth fighter in the country, and the Indian Air Force is scouting for 114 multi-role fighter aircraft.
Singh said the IAF will analyse the recommendations of a top government committee on capability enhancement of the IAF to chart out a road map.
Defence secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh presented the report of the empowered committee to defence minister Rajnath Singh on March 3, days after the IAF chief admitted that the air force was “very badly off in numbers”, adding that it must induct 40 fighter jets every year to stay combat ready.
The report has recommended a raft of short and long-term measures to boost the capabilities of the IAF, which is grappling with a shortage of fighter squadrons, and pointed out that it was critical to enhance self-reliance in the aerospace sector through increased participation of the private sector to fill critical gaps.
“We need to accelerate the process [of indigenisation]. Our processes are a little slow. And we need to be ready for failures. In research and development, if you are not ready for failures, you will never succeed in time. If you try something and you are not succeeding, change your track quickly,” the air chief said.
In February, the IAF chief questioned the ability of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to meet the air force’s critical requirements in the backdrop of a lingering delay in the supply of the new light combat aircraft (LCA-Mk-1A), saying he had “no confidence” in the plane maker. The remarks, made during an interaction with HAL officials, were recorded by someone.
“This is ridiculous... Somebody is sneaking into what you are talking about privately. It is wrong. I was talking to my colleagues from HAL... We have trained together. My intention was to get to their conscience --- you are sitting here, and you must push yourself to reach there. The way it came out was not right...It was a friendly chat with test crew and engineers who I have worked with,” the IAF chief said on Saturday.
Giving F-35 "NASCAR Upgrade" Can Deliver 80% Of F-47 Capabilities At Half Cost: Lockheed
Lockheed doubles down on the Joint Strike Fighter after its F-47 loss with plans to inject 6th generation capabilities into the F-35's 'chassis.'
www.twz.com
"but the general said and you can't disagree with the general!!" is not "technical discussion" its debate, its an attempt to shut down discussion because a "general said so". not only is it a fallacious appeal to authority which is logical fallacy, one general is not the ultimate authority on all things forever. That article has been debated to death and my point was that there is as much said as unsaid. American officers have a real glib way of speaking, its generalized and often exaggerated along with lots of lingo and comparison and analogies. by the USAF doctrine, remember there are other services and countries that use the F-35 and it is their air superiority choice. Remove the bombs and the F-35 does very well. Not like an F-22, but again there are more doctrines than just the USAF. are we really doing to say that India lacks an air superiority fighter because its not an F-22? by USAF doctrine that is true. they wouldn't count the Rafale either.
"but the IAF is different!" yes exactly . just like the US Navy is different and France is different. if General Hostage said the Rafale is "useless" would Randomradio go along with him or disagree? RR only uses these sources when they say things he wants to hear, and ignores the rest. If a general agrees he says "listen to the general!" if a general disagrees he ignores the general or "adds technical commentary" to contradict an authority figure he told us minutes before was the ultimate authority. The point still stands that the F-35 having "better" stealth is still open to interpretation. most of this boils down to what we choose to believe and believe to be important versus things we choose to ignore or downgrade because in our eyes its not as important
The F-35C to the navy is an air superiority fighter. it doesn't work like an F-14, but its not supposed to either. the USAF declaring everything but an F-22 to be "not air superiority" would seem to be an obvious rhetorical trap mixed with good old fashioned American smugness, and I am shocked that so many of you fall for it.
not to forget how many of these articles are poorly constructed and that the "pentagon" has many face and many facets and many disagreements and plenty of things that contradict one another.
that is exactly what I am saying. The F-15 is last generation. the F-35 is stealth. the F-15 is not. technology marches on and while the F-15 might have ruled the skies for decades it was never expected to kill fighters it cannot see, and meanwhile the F-35 can see the F-15 all along. Has nothing to do with "scripted exercise" and everything to do with yesterdays tech being replaced by aircraft that are newer and simply bound to replace them. please explain how an F-15 that can't detect an F-35 is expected to find and kill the F-35? and please explain how the F-15 which can't hide from the F-35 is expected to survive being hunted down? it is not complicated.
that is not "doctrine" by definition and there are more air arms than just the USAF. this is where none of this makes sense by "doctrine"
F-22 =Air superiority fighter
F-15= Air Superiority fighter but no EM dominance and no Super Cruise. (still defined as ASF!)
F-35= Stealthy and kills Blind F-15s = not air superiority!
So the F-35 is a not air superiority aircraft that kills air superiority F-15 that no longer fit the "doctrine" of air superiority
very confusing!!
ig we want to say F-35 is not air superiority no matter how effective it is at killing aircraft because of the above criteria then we need to acknowlegde that the F-15 is no longer air superioity either. in other words the "doctrines" or definition are basically just arbitrary inventions. sure an F-35 will kill an F-15 90 times out of 100, but by golly just because its "air superiority" doesn't mean its superior in the air! ok!
There aren't even 200 F-22s, and only one service in one country uses them. "deadly in BVR and highly survivable." is what makes the F-35 capable of air superiority. the question is not what the F-35 was "designed" to do, what can it do? only the American air force has F-22s so everyone else just sits there helplessly hoping the F-22s show up while their ships sink and airfields burn? or do they use the F-35 to control the skies?
"oh no! the air force book says we can't do the air superiority mission!" do we really think all 180+ F-22s are going to be in the right time and right place against China and no F-35s are going to end up having to sweep the skies? We already know there are tactics for F-35s what will have some aircraft in Strike mode and some only in Air to Air missile loadouts. Air superiority is a MISSION. it is not a set of requirements for pass/fail. if every F-22 broke and some sad *censored* CF-18 takes off, the CF-18 is doing the air superiority MISSION. And the point of the Air Superiority mission is to kill the enemy and control the skies -- not to Super cruise. super cruise is supposed to help faciliate kiling things and controlling the skies. but it is not an end onto itself, which is where the confusion comes in.
this is why we have people telling us that the F-15 is an "air superiority fighter" because of its kinematics, but it can't actually control or kill against an F-35 which everyone assures me is not an "Air superiority fighter"
A more accurate statement would be that the characteristics (not doctrine) of air superiority fighters typically include but are not necessarily required to be: "
an F-15 can't do air superiority when an F-35 is in the area hunting it, because the F-15 is fundamentally on the defensive against a threat it can't counter. meanwhile the F-35 can keep popping AMRAAMS (because all American fighters F-22 to F-18 use the same weapons) at the F-15 which has no choice but to REACT. if a fighter is REACTING, rather than ACTING it is in defensive mode and no longer in control of the airspace. in other words the F-15 may say "Air superiority fighter" on the title, but it is not so when going against "fat amy" and thus the entire notion of what is or is not air superiority is questionable. not because of what the USAF "says" but because of what the aircraft are and are not capable of.
hopefully this explains some things my answers are going to be shorter
You need to remember that the fanboy randomradio just talks ******
His opinions are at best, that of a disturbed schoolboy.
Also it needs to be remembered that the Rafale can't use the 2 way data link of the Meteor missile. So it is already at a disadvantage.
oh I disagree with the idea that he is a boy. Typically men when caught in a falsehood say "oh you have catched me, i will now tell the truth" it is usually Women who will lie in rapid fire even as they keep getting caught, digging the hole deeper and deeper and all the while convinced that it is working!
its not a matter of "Afterburner" you don't understand the subject, and no they can't super cruise "just like the F-22"
no the Rafale was not "designed"as an ASF". The Rafale is "omnirole" and was designed not as an ASF but as a multi-role fighter. if you would like to say "well a multirole fighter can do ASF" is exactly what I said
its a very large subject, and rather than just go with what Chip Berke pointed out (and that you agreed with) you had to go on the block 4 tirade.
design changes = its completely different because nothing on the yak 141 was useful for the JSF program.
not entirely true, yak 141 gave great lessons on what NOT to do. its like saying the SU-30MKI is just a copy of F-15 active "you can find some design changes..."
nothing special about the F-35, just go buy a production yak 141 theyre everywhere! just like F-35 clones. just go buy one take your pick.
Anything less than a block 4 F-35 is useless! awkward for all those air forces that buy anything else I suppose
I didn't realize that a stealthy F-16 was so useless!
you are splitting hairs over things that do not matter. the point is the F-35 can beat any F-15 variant. I don't need the rundown on the details.
true!
The F-35 has more in common with the F-22 than the Rafale or the Typhoon have with F-22. just look at them all and see if your eyes notice anything.
read that again very slowly...
I think at this point not even you can keep track of all you claims. what you continue to tell us and claim is that it is more important to define an ASF by these characteristics even when a Jaguar which has none of them can defeat these characteristics.
this is where we run into the crossroad that I keep trying to explain to not just you but others as well. I will try to keep it very simple.
Group 1 belives that an air superiority fighter is collection of listed characteristics and the EFFECTIVENESS of killing and winning in the air do matter
and Group 2 believes that killing and winning in the air is what defines Air Superiority by definition, and that the characteristics to achieve that are myriad.
by your and group 1s definition. if 100 F-15 die while getting no kills then F-15 is still air superiority because it meets criteria.
group 2 definition points out that if 100 F-15s are killed in the air while ATTEMPTING Air superiority mission, then it is not at all an actual air superiority machine. instead, whatever defeats the F-15 is actually the air superiority fighter. I will make a flowchart
Fighter X shoots down 10 F-15s for no losses. Is Fighter X an Air superiority fighter?
I
I
I
V
Is Fighter X an F-35?------------> then No Fighter X is not air superiority
Is Fighter X Anything besides an F-35? -----------> fighter X is air superiority!
=you confuse characteristics with effectiveness.
i think you missed the point. if you want to say the F-35 would be eaten up by Felon or F-22 by all means fine. my point is that the F-35 is still superior to a lot of aircraft that are considerd air superiority including the gneration 4.5 jets, and as far as INDIA is concerned. There is nowhere near enough SU-57 and the F-22 is verboten. despite your best efforts of changing definitions and altering history (The Rafale was designed to be ASF!)-- no it wasn't it was to be mult-role and land on ships which is why the French left the Eurofighter program. but this brings us full circle because you are telling us a fighter that is not DESIGNED or DEFINED as ASF can do the ASF mission!
the F-22 avionics are junk, F-35 avionics are better but also useless because not block 4, which indirectly proves a level of superiority against less advanced adversaries that claim to be "Air superiority fighters" which the F-35 will beat--even though its not a designed air superiority fighter like the Rafale, which is also not designed to be air superiority...
you can't even keep track of your own posts LOL
No, both supercruise without afterburner.
Fact: Chip's F-35 doesn't exist.
Of course it wasn't. America stronk!!!
Probably. Or maybe not.
Still not an F-35 B4.
Yes. That is my point. F-15C is too old to fight the F-35, and your new fangled F-15EX is just a glorified truck.
The F-35 isn't.
The Rafale and Typhoon have far more in common with the F-22. The F-35 is similar to the SH.
Did that work for you?
Being able to kill a jet and ASF are not the same things.
A Jaguar has to get lucky to kill an F-22. All it has to do is fire its ASRAAM and run. If the ASRAAM hits home, the F-22 is dead. The F-35 follows the same princple. It fires missiles to get lucky. It uses stealth to stay hidden for longer at medium altitude, while the Jaguar uses terrain masking at low altitude, but that time's soon gonna pass.
Depends on where sensor tech takes us. We are approaching the era where an F-22/F-35 class with its massive vertical fins will be picked up on radar. And we know neither jet is good enough for IR stealth. So 4th gen jets with the right sensors and networking will be able to defeat F-22/F-35 class designs much more reliably. When that happens, the F-35 will find itself in a jam 'cause it can't run.
The B-2 is more stealthy than the F-35, but the USAF doesn't believe it is survivable anymore. So where does that leave the F-35?
Rafale is possibly already at that stage with the F4, and Typhoon is likely gonna reach that stage over the next few years, once it gets a new radar.
Rafale is an ASF that does other things too. The engine performance, wing design, and sensors are dedicated for the ASF mission.
390th Electronic Combat Squadron - Wikipedia
I believe in facts very much, but what I don't believe in is people like yourself twisting them to suit your claims like the Yak 141 stupidity you displayed.
most myths have an element of truth to them, its what comes afterwards that is the problem.
The IAF physically demonstrated 5000 sorties in 3 days with 500 aircraft in 2018.
Indian Air Force jets do 5,000 sorties in 72 hours on western front | India News - Times of India
India News: After the “surge” in air combat operations on the western front with Pakistan, which saw a staggering 5,000 sorties by fighters alone in just three datimesofindia.indiatimes.com
That's about 1700 sorties a day for 500 jets. For about 2500 jets, that's easily 8500 sorties. And the IAF sortie rate demonstrated was significantly less than what they could actually do. If we assume they can do a modest 2500 sorties, then with 2500 jets, the Chinese can do 12500 sorties a day.
And yeah, you think a few Nimitz's that manage 250 can compete with 12500.
I'm saying that comparing sortie generation and such is not the key factor you think it is, and I don't think it proves the point you were originally trying to make about the US Navy being automatically subserviant to the USAF and Devoid of its own air philosphy, doctrine, tactics, missions etc.
you are grossly over simplying and then using sortie generation as "proof" The sortie generation is a red herring, and what you are attempting now is to engage me over it and force to debate sortie generation-- when sortie generation was nothing more than your attempt to justify your claim.
I don't understand how people don't get such simple concepts.
You need the F-35's super-duper avionics to defeat ground defenses. But another fighter, say J-20, doesn't need the F-35's super-duper avionics to defeat the F-35. The J-20 only needs an F-35 killing avionics, while the F-35 needs an S-400 killing avionics. They are not the same.
390th Electronic Combat Squadron - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I believe in facts very much, but what I don't believe in is people like yourself twisting them to suit your claims like the Yak 141 stupidity you displayed.
most myths have an element of truth to them, its what comes afterwards that is the problem.
I'm saying that comparing sortie generation and such is not the key factor you think it is, and I don't think it proves the point you were originally trying to make about the US Navy being automatically subserviant to the USAF and Devoid of its own air philosphy, doctrine, tactics, missions etc.
you are grossly over simplying and then using sortie generation as "proof" The sortie generation is a red herring, and what you are attempting now is to engage me over it and force to debate sortie generation-- when sortie generation was nothing more than your attempt to justify your claim.
The USN's not gonna waste time and resources to break through Chinese defenses. Once the USAF finishes a day or two of fighting, the USN will step in then.
Btw...
Israel’s F-35I Adir: The Most Dangerous Fighter on Earth?
The F-35I Adir stands out among a crowded market of generic export models, offering a unique Israeli twist on the F-35 formula. Israel’s interest in the F-35 jet program goes back to the early 2000s. By 2006, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) had explicitly committed to replacing its aging stock of...
nationalinterest.org
Funny that both IAF's don't think the F-35's stealthy anymore.
When the Rafale programme was launched, the French Air Force and French Navy published a joint requirement for an omnirole aircraft that would have to replace the seven types of combat aircraft then in operation.
The new aircraft would have to be able to carry out a very wide range of missions:
- Air-defence / air-superiority/air policing,
- Reconnaissance,
- Nuclear deterrence,
- Air-to-ground precision strike / interdiction,
- Close air support,
- Anti-ship attacks,
- buddy-buddy refuelling.
©Dassault Aviation - A. Pecchi
Rafale C in flight.
These requirements were taken into account from the start of the Rafale’s development, leading engineers to invent an evolutive aircraft which goes beyond the needs of each type of mission.
you are telling us that Rafale doesn't meet requirements.
come and get your boy, he's drunk again.
guess how I know you didn't click the link?
Btw...
Still, the IAF is eyeing a much more ambitious set of changes than merely additional weapons. In essence, Israel’s defense establishment seems to have little faith in the long-term viability of the F-35’s stealth performance. “We think the stealth protection will be good for 5–10 years, but the aircraft will be in service for 30–40 years,” a senior IAF official told Aviation Week. Rather, the IAF is more interested in the F-35 as an advanced electronic warfare (EW) platform: “so we need electronic warfare capabilities that can be rapidly improved. The basic F-35 design is OK. We can make do with adding more software.” The U.S. government was not at all enthused with the idea of Israeli avionics modifications to the F-35 jet, so Jerusalem made a counteroffer: rather than changing the F-35’s core systems, the IAF’s EW tweaks will be layered on top of the fighter jet’s existing avionics.Israel’s F-35I Adir: The Most Dangerous Fighter on Earth?
The F-35I Adir stands out among a crowded market of generic export models, offering a unique Israeli twist on the F-35 formula. Israel’s interest in the F-35 jet program goes back to the early 2000s. By 2006, the Israeli Air Force (IAF) had explicitly committed to replacing its aging stock of...
Funny that both IAF's don't think the F-35's stealthy anymore.
sure thing!