Astra Mk2 by 2030 is a given rather we need Gandiva and also our Project Kusha SAMs by 2030.
Operation Sindoor: India Strikes Terroist Camps Inside Pakitsan
- Thread starter Defc0n
- Start date
Let's see when Pak gets its own LLM, whether their own or borrowed. And let's see when Pak will develop their own industry.
We have thousands of brahmos do they seriously think we sent 80% of them to hit them? Man this is yet another example on the perils of cousin marriage to the human intelligence and sanity.
Sir do we have such stealth detection tech? I was reading we recently made a radar capable of stealth detection but the problem is tracking and lockon on guide missiles to hit them. Do we/can we make such technologies by 2030 or whenever the next clash happens?
Exactly. That's why I've never been a big fan of this perception war. The truth comes out rather quickly nowadays.
In fact, in the long run, not playing the game but letting facts speak for themselves is gonna be the meta. But our communication of facts needs to be effective. That's how Trump won the elections.
I would like to add here with what we did in the past three days, I have full confidence that we could retake and capture all of Pakistan without much sweat. The deep state was actually expecting a slaughter like Israel/Palestine and Russia/ukraine but got shocked at how efficiently we were handling the whole drone problem and striking Pakistani airbases at will. Which were far better covered and protected than both Palestine or Ukraine. The capability differential is visible. The only thing was doing a ground invasion where we would actually get checked. On public narrative we might have lost but most actual thinktankers, deep state operatives and the internationale combine is terrified on how easily our military handled the whole thing. This was not like Russia where they were losing S-400's to gmlrs or Israelis having rockets penetrating their airspace. Our strikes were also far more accurate than the Russians. We actually fought a clinical war uptill phase 2 and humiliated chinese hardware. The only issue again came out to be the bvr problem.
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Russias asymmetric capabilities are also immense which allowes them to be a true military power. One of my friends was briefly in the US DoD as a cyber defence programmer and he told me that Russian cyber warfare capability was actually very serious, second only to the US and even slightly above China.
To fight at India's level, they are gonna have to deliver technologies that they themselves operate. It's not gonna happen.
From being a direct military rival, they will try and turn Pakistan into an insurgency magnet that can bleed India, like what was attempted for Russia via Ukraine. They just didn't expect the Russians to be so poorly prepared.
Turning Pakistan into another Afghanistan will do the trick.
They have always won the info war. This is from '65.
The 1965 Indo-Pakistani War saw the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Pakistan Air Force (PAF) engage in large-scale aerial combat for the first time since the 1947 partition. The air war, primarily in September, involved thousands of sorties over Indian and Pakistani airspace, with both sides conducting defensive and offensive operations. The conflict began with ground operations in August but escalated to air operations following Pakistan’s Operation Grand Slam, aimed at capturing the Akhnoor bridge in Jammu and Kashmir.
### Key Aspects of Aerial Operations
#### Indian Air Force (IAF)
- **Aircraft**: The IAF operated a mix of aircraft, including Hawker Hunters, Folland Gnats (nicknamed "Sabre Slayer" for their effectiveness against PAF Sabres), de Havilland Vampires, Dassault Mystère IVs, EE Canberra bombers, and a squadron of MiG-21s. The IAF had a numerical advantage, with approximately five times more combat aircraft than the PAF.[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_war_of_1965)
- **Initial Response**: On September 1, 1965, the IAF launched 26 aircraft (12 Vampires and 14 Mystères) from Pathankot to counter Pakistan’s armored thrust in the Chhamb sector. These strikes targeted Pakistani tanks and ground forces, though four Vampires were lost to PAF Sabres, highlighting the obsolescence of Vampires in modern combat.[](https://swarajyamag.com/defence/when-an-indian-fighter-pilot-landed-on-an-abandoned-air-strip-in-pakistan)[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)
- **Tactical Adjustments**: After early losses, the IAF withdrew around 130 Vampires and 50 Ouragans from frontline service, focusing on more capable aircraft like Gnats and Hunters. The IAF used Mystères as bait to lure PAF Sabres into ambushes by Gnats, which proved effective.[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)
- **Notable Engagements**:
- On September 3, Sqn Ldr Trevor Keelor shot down a PAF F-86 Sabre in the Chhamb sector, marking the IAF’s first air-to-air kill of the war.[](https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/1965-ops)
- On September 4, Flt Lt V. S. Pathania downed another Sabre, reinforcing the Gnat’s reputation.[](https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/1965-ops)
- On September 7, the IAF conducted 33 sorties against the PAF’s Sargodha airfield, losing two Mystères and three Hunters but disrupting PAF operations.[](https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965)
- On September 21, six IAF Canberras from No. 16 Squadron struck a radar complex in Badin, Pakistan, flying over 1,000 km at low altitude.[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)
- **Attrition and Strategy**: The IAF flew 3,937 sorties, focusing on close air support, interdiction, and counter-air missions. Up to 60% of IAF losses (estimated at 35 aircraft) occurred on the ground due to PAF strikes on airfields like Kalaikkunda and Pathankot. The IAF’s attrition rate was 1.5%, lower than the PAF’s 1.82%, suggesting better sustainability.[](https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965)[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)
- **Claims**: India claimed to have destroyed 73 PAF aircraft while losing 35 of its own. IAF Chief Air Marshal Arjan Singh claimed air superiority within three days, despite the PAF’s qualitative edge.[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)[](https://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/iaf-defeated-paf-in-1965-war/)
#### Pakistan Air Force (PAF)
- **Aircraft**: The PAF fielded 102 F-86F Sabres, 12 F-104 Starfighters, and 24 B-57 Canberra bombers, largely of American origin. The Sabres, some equipped with Sidewinder missiles, and the Mach-2 F-104s gave the PAF a qualitative advantage, though it was outnumbered roughly 5:1.[](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_war_of_1965)[](https://theprint.in/defence/1965-india-pakistan-war-how-iafs-heroes-slayed-pafs-superior-sabre-fighter-jets/287642/)
- **Strategy**: The PAF aimed to deny IAF air superiority through combat air patrols (CAPs), counter-air strikes on Indian airfields, and close support for ground forces. Its war plan, issued in July 1965, anticipated conflict and prioritized airfield attacks and interdiction.[](https://casstt.com/the-1965-air-war-and-the-pafs-air-dominance/)
- **Notable Engagements**:
- On September 1, PAF Sabres shot down four IAF Vampires in Chhamb, exploiting their obsolescence.[](https://swarajyamag.com/defence/when-an-indian-fighter-pilot-landed-on-an-abandoned-air-strip-in-pakistan)
- On September 6, the PAF launched pre-emptive strikes on IAF bases, including Pathankot, where it claimed to have destroyed seven MiG-21s, five Mystères, and a C-119.[](https://casstt.com/the-1965-air-war-and-the-pafs-air-dominance/)
- On September 7, Sqn Ldr M. M. Alam claimed to have shot down five IAF Hawker Hunters in a single engagement over Sargodha, a feat celebrated in Pakistan but disputed by Indian sources.[](https://casstt.com/the-1965-air-war-and-the-pafs-air-dominance/)[](https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1035731142115250176)
- On the same day, the PAF attempted a paratrooper drop by 135 Special Services Group commandos on IAF airfields at Halwara, Pathankot, and Adampur, but the operation was a failure, with most commandos captured or killed.[](https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965)
- **Attrition and Propaganda**: The PAF flew 2,364 sorties, focusing on counter-air and ground support. Pakistani sources claimed 104 IAF aircraft destroyed against 19 PAF losses, though estimates suggest 18–43 PAF aircraft were lost. The PAF’s effective propaganda amplified its perceived success, but its higher attrition rate (1.82%) indicated sustainability challenges.[](https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965)[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)[](https://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/iaf-defeated-paf-in-1965-war/)
- **Claims**: PAF Chief Nur Khan claimed air superiority by September 6 and supremacy by September 8, assertions considered exaggerated by analysts. The PAF shifted to defensive operations after September 8 due to losses.[](https://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/iaf-defeated-paf-in-1965-war/)
#### Outcome and Analysis
- **Stalemate**: Both sides claimed victory, but the air war ended in a stalemate. The IAF’s numerical advantage and lower attrition rate suggest it could have sustained operations longer, but the PAF’s qualitative edge and early successes gave it a tactical advantage in specific engagements.[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)
- **Losses**: Determining exact losses is complicated by conflicting claims and the mix of air-to-air and ground losses. Indian sources estimate 24 IAF aircraft lost in air combat and 73 PAF aircraft destroyed, while Pakistani sources claim 59–110 IAF losses against 18–43 PAF losses. Independent analyses suggest the IAF lost 35–59 aircraft and the PAF 19–43.[](https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965)[](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_air_war_of_1965)
- **Lessons Learned**: The IAF recognized deficiencies in training and equipment, leading to post-war modernization, including Soviet radar systems and SA-2 missiles. The PAF’s reliance on U.S. supplies was exposed by a post-war arms embargo, forcing it to acquire second-hand aircraft. The IAF refined tactics, which proved decisive in the 1971 war.[](https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_Air_War_of_1965)
- **Propaganda and Perception**: The PAF’s aggressive psychological operations shaped a narrative of dominance, influencing some analysts despite evidence of IAF resilience. Indian historian Pushpinder Singh noted the PAF lost 12% of its strength by September 8, forcing a defensive posture.[](https://www.indiandefencereview.com/spotlights/iaf-defeated-paf-in-1965-war/)
### Critical Perspective
The establishment narrative, reflected in both nations’ claims, exaggerates victories to bolster national morale. Indian sources emphasize the IAF’s numerical strength and eventual control, while Pakistani accounts highlight early successes and qualitative superiority. Independent analysis, such as attrition rates and sortie sustainability, suggests neither side achieved decisive air superiority. The PAF’s propaganda was more effective, but the IAF’s adaptability and lower losses indicate operational resilience. The war exposed strategic miscalculations, notably Pakistan’s overconfidence in Operation Grand Slam and India’s initial reliance on outdated aircraft.
The air war ended with a ceasefire on September 23, 1965, mediated by the UN. Both air forces demonstrated courage and ingenuity, but the lack of clear air superiority underscores the limitations of air power in a short, intense conflict without a comprehensive joint strategy.
The moment I saw the multitude of drdo and private sector projects wtr to anti drone capability i knew we could easily handle whatever drone the Pakistanis could throw at us. By 2030 it will be even more robust with Solar industries anti drone missile truck and DRDO 25 kW anti drone laser weapons along with more L70 guns in deployment.
This is for '71
The 1971 Indo-Pakistani War, fought primarily in December, saw intense aerial combat between the Indian Air Force (IAF) and Pakistan Air Force (PAF), particularly in the Eastern and Western theaters. Unlike the 1965 war, the IAF entered the conflict better prepared, with modernized aircraft, improved training, and refined tactics, while the PAF faced constraints due to a U.S. arms embargo and numerical inferiority. The war, culminating in Bangladesh’s independence, showcased the IAF’s dominance and exposed PAF limitations, though both sides displayed tactical skill.
### Key Aspects of Aerial Operations
#### Indian Air Force (IAF)
- **Strength and Aircraft**: The IAF fielded around 625 combat aircraft, including MiG-21FLs (supersonic, radar-equipped), Hawker Hunters, Folland Gnats, Sukhoi Su-7s, HAL HF-24 Maruts, and EE Canberra bombers. The IAF had a 2:1 numerical advantage over the PAF and deployed 10 squadrons in the East and 22 in the West.
- **Strategy**: The IAF aimed for air superiority through pre-emptive strikes, airfield attacks, and close air support. In the East, it prioritized neutralizing PAF bases in East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) to support ground operations. In the West, it focused on defensive counter-air and interdiction to blunt Pakistani offensives.
- **Eastern Theater**:
- On December 3, 1971, the IAF launched pre-emptive strikes on PAF bases in East Pakistan, notably Tejgaon and Kurmitola airfields, crippling the PAF’s single squadron of 14 F-86 Sabres within hours.
- By December 4, the IAF achieved air superiority in the East, flying 1,978 sorties over 13 days, including 1,028 ground attack missions. It destroyed 13 PAF aircraft (11 on the ground) with no IAF losses in air combat.
- Key operations included low-level strikes by Gnats and Hunters, supporting Indian Army advances and isolating Pakistani forces. The IAF also conducted psychological operations, dropping surrender leaflets.
- On December 14, IAF Hunters from No. 14 Squadron sank five Pakistani merchant ships in Chittagong harbor, disrupting supply lines.
- **Western Theater**:
- The IAF flew 3,991 sorties, facing stiffer PAF resistance. It conducted counter-air strikes on bases like Sargodha and Karachi and supported ground defenses in Punjab and Rajasthan.
- On December 4, the Battle of Longewala saw IAF Hunters from Jaisalmer destroy 26 Pakistani tanks, halting an armored thrust.
- Air combat was intense, with MiG-21s and Gnats engaging PAF Sabres, Mirage IIIs, and F-6s. The IAF claimed 45 PAF aircraft destroyed in air combat, losing 45 of its own (19 in air combat, 26 on the ground).
- Notable kills included Flt Lt M. A. Ganapathy’s downing of a PAF Sabre on December 4 and Wg Cdr M. M. S. Bawa’s Mirage III kill on December 5.
- **Losses and Attrition**: The IAF lost 75 aircraft (45 in the West, 30 in accidents or ground attacks) but maintained an attrition rate of 0.75% (East) and 1.3% (West). Its ability to sustain 5,969 sorties (3,991 West, 1,978 East) reflected operational depth.
- **Claims**: India claimed 94 PAF aircraft destroyed (45 in air combat, 49 on the ground) against 75 IAF losses. The IAF achieved air superiority in the East by December 4 and contested superiority in the West.
#### Pakistan Air Force (PAF)
- **Strength and Aircraft**: The PAF had about 280 combat aircraft, including 120 F-86 Sabres, 24 Mirage IIIs, 60 F-6s (Chinese MiG-19 variants), 12 F-104 Starfighters, and 20 B-57 bombers. A U.S. embargo since 1965 limited spares and modernization, forcing reliance on Chinese and French aircraft. The PAF deployed one squadron in the East and 11 in the West.
- **Strategy**: In the East, the PAF aimed to delay IAF dominance but was overwhelmed. In the West, it focused on counter-air strikes, airfield attacks, and defensive combat air patrols (CAPs) to support ground offensives like Operation Cactus Lily.
- **Eastern Theater**:
- The PAF’s 14 Sabres in East Pakistan, based at Tejgaon, were outnumbered 10:1. On December 3, IAF strikes destroyed six Sabres on the ground, and by December 7, the PAF ceased operations in the East.
- Four Sabres briefly operated from Kurmitola, but pilots fled to Burma by December 6, interning three aircraft. The PAF flew 147 sorties, losing 13 aircraft (11 on the ground, 2 in combat).
- The PAF’s failure to contest IAF dominance enabled Indian ground forces to advance rapidly, leading to Dhaka’s fall on December 16.
- **Western Theater**:
- The PAF flew 2,701 sorties, focusing on airfield strikes (e.g., Amritsar, Srinagar) and ground support. On December 3, it launched Operation Chengiz Khan, hitting 11 IAF airfields, but damage was limited due to IAF dispersal tactics.
- Air combat saw PAF Sabres and Mirage IIIs engage IAF MiG-21s and Hunters. Notable PAF successes included Sqn Ldr M. A. Farooq’s kill of an IAF Hunter on December 4 and Wg Cdr S. A. Changezi’s MiG-21 kill on December 12.
- The PAF claimed 88 IAF aircraft destroyed (44 in air combat) against 25 losses (16 in air combat). Independent estimates suggest 25–45 PAF losses, with 16 in air combat.
- Attrition was high at 2.1%, reflecting strain from sustained operations and limited reserves.
- **Claims**: Pakistan claimed 103 IAF aircraft destroyed (44 in air combat, 59 on the ground) against 25 PAF losses. These claims were inflated, with actual PAF losses likely closer to 45.
#### Outcome and Analysis
- **IAF Dominance**: The IAF achieved decisive air superiority in the East within 24 hours, enabling rapid Indian Army victories and Bangladesh’s liberation. In the West, it contested air superiority, preventing PAF dominance despite early setbacks. The IAF’s 5,969 sorties dwarfed the PAF’s 2,848, showcasing superior operational tempo.
- **Losses**: Estimates vary due to propaganda. Indian sources report 75 IAF losses (19 air combat, 26 ground, 30 other) and 94 PAF losses (45 air combat, 49 ground). Pakistani sources claim 25 PAF losses against 103 IAF. Neutral analyses suggest 75 IAF and 25–45 PAF losses, with the IAF’s lower attrition rate (1.3% vs. 2.1%) indicating better sustainability.
- **Tactical Insights**:
- The IAF’s pre-emptive strikes, dispersal tactics, and use of MiG-21s with R-3S missiles gave it an edge. Gnats and Hunters excelled in dogfights, while Su-7s absorbed heavy ground fire.
- The PAF’s Mirage IIIs and F-6s performed well, but Sabres were outdated, and F-104s underperformed due to IAF tactics neutralizing their speed advantage. The PAF’s focus on airfield strikes yielded limited results.
- **Lessons Learned**: The IAF’s success stemmed from 1965 lessons, including better training, Soviet-supplied equipment, and joint army-air coordination. The PAF, hamstrung by the U.S. embargo, struggled with spares and pilot fatigue. Post-war, Pakistan sought Chinese and European aircraft to diversify.
- **Propaganda**: Both sides exaggerated claims, but the IAF’s verifiable impact—destroying PAF capability in the East and supporting ground victories—gave it a clearer edge. Pakistani claims of parity in the West overstated PAF performance.
### Critical Perspective
Establishment narratives amplify national pride: India portrays the IAF as overwhelmingly dominant, while Pakistan emphasizes PAF resilience despite odds. Independent data—sortie rates, attrition, and territorial outcomes—confirm IAF superiority, particularly in the East, where the PAF collapsed. In the West, the PAF fought bravely but was outmatched by IAF numbers and preparation. The war highlighted air power’s role in joint operations, with the IAF’s integration proving decisive. Conversely, the PAF’s defensive posture and logistical constraints limited its impact, despite tactical successes.
The war ended on December 16, 1971, with Pakistan’s surrender in the East and a ceasefire in the West. The IAF’s performance reshaped South Asian air power dynamics, while the PAF’s resilience under adversity underscored the need for modernization, setting the stage for future rivalry.
Yea especially after PL15 falling into our hands, me thinks there will be at least some opposition to give Pakistan advanced chinese hardware that the PLA also uses. They will give then highly degraded versions from now on.
I am more worried about , now they know what military capabilities India has. China will bring change into it's systems. I hope India renews everything which remains exposed. After this I am sure capital for R&D will flow in.
Hats off to our anti air defence capabilities! These need to be strengthened now two level up.
Our air to air capabilities need to improve which will happen marginally when Astra mk2 becomes operational in 2026 but it needs to increase by multitudes ie Gandiva induction.
air to air and true anti stealth against 6.5 gen. The AI needs to be integrated where it is feasible and worth for engaging multiple air targets in a large sector with integrated radar network.
You can drop the sir, it's for ancient people.
Stealth detection will come through cooperative targeting from multiple radars; ground, air, and space. This exposes a stealth aircraft's weaknesses to this unified radar system.
Ground assets can already do that today. Aircraft will soon do that once we get the right radars in the air, via LCA Mk2, MKI MLU, and MRFA, along with new AWACS and ISR drones. We will also establish a space-based global SAR constellation over the next 5-10 years.
What i am most concerned about and i just could be being overly concerned, is that this "ceasefire" actually is just another playing card terroristan has got now. I am having hard time to believe the enemy will not capitulate on this given what we saw just hours after it was agreed to. I mean am sure our intelligence agency is there for a reason but still... will they really just accept the thrashing we gave them, swallow their pride and just let this thing go
They aren't going back to the Chinese after this. They will stick with the j-10's and maybe get the j-31's but that's a big if. Most likely they might aim to get hands on aim120c7/c8's and behave for some time to get f-16 blk70 upgrades atleast.
Getting the PL-15 is not such a big deal though. It's pretty normal. The Chinese will have countermeasures in place for such things.
Limiting it to LoC makes it comfortable for both countries. Pakistan can vent it's frustration on the LoC and we can counter strike and destroy without fear of escalating. The Pakistanis are humiliated badly and will do even more fedayeen attacks. It's clear the Pak armed forces are radicalised far more than we might have expected. The lower ranks rebelled and actually broke the ceasefire which means there is some frustration over asim munir's failure. With Shimla agreement gone I think we should start salami slicing and increase the arming of balochis and pashtuns. Should also tell RAW to target PAF personel in Pakistan. Just psychologically traumatise them lol.
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