Talwar-class Frigates : Discussions
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Recent news suggest India might buy one (Project 11356) Grigorovich-class frigate from Russia while the rest three would be constructed in India.
In addition, India agreed to purchase four Project 11356 frigates from Russia ("Admiral Grigorovich" class). In particular, the parties agreed that one ship would be built at Russia's Yantar shipyard, and three other frigates - in India. The agreement totaled about $3 billion.
www.pravdareport.com/world/asia/26-12-2017/139544-india_russia-0/
Could be because of the progress Russia has made with their own turbine development.
In addition, India agreed to purchase four Project 11356 frigates from Russia ("Admiral Grigorovich" class). In particular, the parties agreed that one ship would be built at Russia's Yantar shipyard, and three other frigates - in India. The agreement totaled about $3 billion.
www.pravdareport.com/world/asia/26-12-2017/139544-india_russia-0/
Could be because of the progress Russia has made with their own turbine development.
Or maybe it makes more sense for Goa shipyard to make a minimum of three in India.
These price estimates are very confusing from all reports. It must have been $2.5 billion for four at max. Else it doesn't make any sense to buy these.
Navy agrees to buy four Russian frigates for $3 billion
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 26th Feb 18
New Delhi and Moscow have finalised contractual terms for four new stealth frigates that Russia will supply the Indian Navy for slightly over Rs 20,000 crore ($3 billion), or about Rs 5,000 crore ($775 million) per vessel.
Designated the “Upgraded Krivak III-class”, the first two frigates will be built in Yantar Shipyard, in Kaliningrad, Russia. The following two will be built in Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) with technology and designs transferred by Yantar. Delivery will begin within four years of signing the contract.
With a defence ministry “cost negotiation committee” having hammered out terms, it remains for the finance ministry and the cabinet to clear what will be the first capital warship contract signed since Project 17A was contracted in early-2015.
The navy already operates six Krivak III frigates. The first three joined the fleet between June 2003 and April 2004, followed by another three between April 2012 and June 2013. With the current contract, the navy will operate ten Krivak III frigates – the fleet’s largest single type.
The Krivak III costs marginally less than the Rs 5,750 crore ($888 million) that the navy will pay for each of seven indigenous frigates that Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have been contracted to build under Project 17A.
However, tonne-for-tonne, the indigenous frigates are cheaper. Each displaces about 5,600 tonnes fully loaded, significantly more muscular than the 4,000-tonne Krivak III. Further, each Project 17A frigate has space for two multi-role helicopters, while the smaller Krivak III embarks just a single Kamov-31 chopper. An extra helicopter provides major advantages in anti-submarine operations and airborne early warning.
Even so, with MDL, GRSE and GSL already stretched to capacity, navy planners are satisfied that Yantar is meeting India’s urgent need for more capital warships. The navy is also pleased with how the Krivak III fleet has performed over time.
New Delhi wanted to build all four Krivak III frigates in GSL under “Make in India”. However, Yantar had already part-built two frigates for the Russian Navy, which then backed away for lack of funds. New Delhi has obliged Moscow by buying them.
The part-built frigates at Yantar are also stalled by a defence embargo that Ukraine imposed on Russia after the latter annexed the Crimea. New Delhi, which has close defence relations with Ukraine, has undertaken to procure and provide Yantar the Zorya turbines that will power them.
The agreed terms stipulate a certain level of Indian-isation for the first two vessels that Yantar will deliver, and a significantly higher level for the next two vessels that are to be built in Goa.
For GSL, building a vessel as complex as a frigate will require upgrading its facilities and skills. However, naval planners say GSL should not take long to learn, having recently undergone the experience of building missile corvettes that are similarly dense in weapons and sensors.
These new Krivak III frigates will have the same engines and armament configuration as Yantar’s last three frigates – INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand. These include the vaunted BrahMos anti-ship and land attack missile.
Senior naval planners underline the advantages of negotiating a “follow-on” contract, i.e. for vessels similar to those procured earlier. While it took six months to negotiate the contract for the Teg, Tarkash and Trikand, negotiations for the current contract took just 45 days to negotiate and finalise.
The navy’s medium term plans envisage increasing warship strength from the current 140-odd, to 198 warships by 2027. This will require adding 5-6 warships annually.
While some 75 vessels of various types are in the navy’s procurement pipeline, there remains a worrying shortfall of frigates, which are the navy’s workhorses. “We need to have at least 24 frigates. Currently we are ten short”, says a senior admiral.
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 26th Feb 18
New Delhi and Moscow have finalised contractual terms for four new stealth frigates that Russia will supply the Indian Navy for slightly over Rs 20,000 crore ($3 billion), or about Rs 5,000 crore ($775 million) per vessel.
Designated the “Upgraded Krivak III-class”, the first two frigates will be built in Yantar Shipyard, in Kaliningrad, Russia. The following two will be built in Goa Shipyard Ltd (GSL) with technology and designs transferred by Yantar. Delivery will begin within four years of signing the contract.
With a defence ministry “cost negotiation committee” having hammered out terms, it remains for the finance ministry and the cabinet to clear what will be the first capital warship contract signed since Project 17A was contracted in early-2015.
The navy already operates six Krivak III frigates. The first three joined the fleet between June 2003 and April 2004, followed by another three between April 2012 and June 2013. With the current contract, the navy will operate ten Krivak III frigates – the fleet’s largest single type.
The Krivak III costs marginally less than the Rs 5,750 crore ($888 million) that the navy will pay for each of seven indigenous frigates that Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers, Kolkata (GRSE) have been contracted to build under Project 17A.
However, tonne-for-tonne, the indigenous frigates are cheaper. Each displaces about 5,600 tonnes fully loaded, significantly more muscular than the 4,000-tonne Krivak III. Further, each Project 17A frigate has space for two multi-role helicopters, while the smaller Krivak III embarks just a single Kamov-31 chopper. An extra helicopter provides major advantages in anti-submarine operations and airborne early warning.
Even so, with MDL, GRSE and GSL already stretched to capacity, navy planners are satisfied that Yantar is meeting India’s urgent need for more capital warships. The navy is also pleased with how the Krivak III fleet has performed over time.
New Delhi wanted to build all four Krivak III frigates in GSL under “Make in India”. However, Yantar had already part-built two frigates for the Russian Navy, which then backed away for lack of funds. New Delhi has obliged Moscow by buying them.
The part-built frigates at Yantar are also stalled by a defence embargo that Ukraine imposed on Russia after the latter annexed the Crimea. New Delhi, which has close defence relations with Ukraine, has undertaken to procure and provide Yantar the Zorya turbines that will power them.
The agreed terms stipulate a certain level of Indian-isation for the first two vessels that Yantar will deliver, and a significantly higher level for the next two vessels that are to be built in Goa.
For GSL, building a vessel as complex as a frigate will require upgrading its facilities and skills. However, naval planners say GSL should not take long to learn, having recently undergone the experience of building missile corvettes that are similarly dense in weapons and sensors.
These new Krivak III frigates will have the same engines and armament configuration as Yantar’s last three frigates – INS Teg, Tarkash and Trikand. These include the vaunted BrahMos anti-ship and land attack missile.
Senior naval planners underline the advantages of negotiating a “follow-on” contract, i.e. for vessels similar to those procured earlier. While it took six months to negotiate the contract for the Teg, Tarkash and Trikand, negotiations for the current contract took just 45 days to negotiate and finalise.
The navy’s medium term plans envisage increasing warship strength from the current 140-odd, to 198 warships by 2027. This will require adding 5-6 warships annually.
While some 75 vessels of various types are in the navy’s procurement pipeline, there remains a worrying shortfall of frigates, which are the navy’s workhorses. “We need to have at least 24 frigates. Currently we are ten short”, says a senior admiral.
An opportunistic decision that will certainly help fill the gap while MDL and GRSE build up for 17A.
Also a good risk management move as 17A can get delayed due to many factors.
I see one more benefit, i.e. GSL becoming the third shipyard capable of building frontline warships.
We have also helped out the Russians by saving their embattled investment.
The negatives are, inadequate anti air cover.
These two ships, admiral Istomin and admiral Korlinov will be completed for India. Seen at Yantar shipyard in Nov 2017.
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Oct 29, 2018, 07.40 AM IST
The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.
Russia has inked a $950 -million deal to supply two new warships to India that will be equipped with Brahmos missiles to add to the firepower of the Navy. The two frigates of the Project 11356 class will be bought directly from Russia and a contract to build two more at an Indian yard is likely to be signed at a later stage.
Sources told ET that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations.
Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route. The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.
The two ships to be brought from Russia are expected to be delivered by 2022, given that the hulls have already been fabricated for a Russian navy order that got stalled following the Ukrainian crisis. The ships have been designed to work with Ukraine-made gas turbines.
The two frigates are likely to be brought to India after construction to fit the gas turbines at a local yard as the order for turbines has been placed directly by New Delhi with Ukraine, to bypass any complications given the Ukraine-Russian relations.
There had been initial discussions to involve the Indian private sector to build two of the ships but the government decided to nominate state-owned Goa Shipyard. It is not clear if the decision still stands or the ministry will follow a competitive process to determine the local partner.
The Goa Shipyard has been facing financial stress and has not been able to go ahead on an earlier order for new minesweeper vessels that are desperately needed by the Navy.
The process to acquire the minesweepers has been aborted twice and an attempt is now being made to issue tenders for the project.
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Oct 29, 2018, 07.40 AM IST
The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.
Russia has inked a $950 -million deal to supply two new warships to India that will be equipped with Brahmos missiles to add to the firepower of the Navy. The two frigates of the Project 11356 class will be bought directly from Russia and a contract to build two more at an Indian yard is likely to be signed at a later stage.
Sources told ET that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations.
Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route. The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.
The two ships to be brought from Russia are expected to be delivered by 2022, given that the hulls have already been fabricated for a Russian navy order that got stalled following the Ukrainian crisis. The ships have been designed to work with Ukraine-made gas turbines.
The two frigates are likely to be brought to India after construction to fit the gas turbines at a local yard as the order for turbines has been placed directly by New Delhi with Ukraine, to bypass any complications given the Ukraine-Russian relations.
There had been initial discussions to involve the Indian private sector to build two of the ships but the government decided to nominate state-owned Goa Shipyard. It is not clear if the decision still stands or the ministry will follow a competitive process to determine the local partner.
The Goa Shipyard has been facing financial stress and has not been able to go ahead on an earlier order for new minesweeper vessels that are desperately needed by the Navy.
The process to acquire the minesweepers has been aborted twice and an attempt is now being made to issue tenders for the project.
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
First locally built 11356 frigate to be handed over to Indian Navy in 2023
The first frigate of Russian project 11356 built by a license in India will be handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023, a representative of Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) told TASS at Euronaval naval show.
"After the signing of a corresponding contract the first (frigate of project 11356) will be laid in 2019 and handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023. Yantar shipyard on the Baltic Sea will provide the necessary technological assistance and supply some sections for assembly," the source said.
The venue for the frigate construction has been determined. Some India-designed onboard equipment will be installed. "The power plant will be supplied by Ukraine, in particular, by Zorya-Mashproekt," he said.
The weapons of the frigate have not been determined yet. "However, talks are underway with BrahMos Aerospace Company," the source said.
Indian media earlier reported the government planned to procure in Russian four frigates of project 11356. Two will be built by Yantar shipyard and two by GSL. They are designed to strike at surface warships and submarines in blue and green waters and fight air targets solo and within groups. A corresponding agreement was not signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India on October 4-5.
The first frigate of Russian project 11356 built by a license in India will be handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023, a representative of Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) told TASS at Euronaval naval show.
"After the signing of a corresponding contract the first (frigate of project 11356) will be laid in 2019 and handed over to the Indian Navy in 2023. Yantar shipyard on the Baltic Sea will provide the necessary technological assistance and supply some sections for assembly," the source said.
The venue for the frigate construction has been determined. Some India-designed onboard equipment will be installed. "The power plant will be supplied by Ukraine, in particular, by Zorya-Mashproekt," he said.
The weapons of the frigate have not been determined yet. "However, talks are underway with BrahMos Aerospace Company," the source said.
Indian media earlier reported the government planned to procure in Russian four frigates of project 11356. Two will be built by Yantar shipyard and two by GSL. They are designed to strike at surface warships and submarines in blue and green waters and fight air targets solo and within groups. A corresponding agreement was not signed during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to India on October 4-5.
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Oct 29, 2018, 07.40 AM IST
The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.
Russia has inked a $950 -million deal to supply two new warships to India that will be equipped with Brahmos missiles to add to the firepower of the Navy. The two frigates of the Project 11356 class will be bought directly from Russia and a contract to build two more at an Indian yard is likely to be signed at a later stage.
Sources told ET that while final clearances for the long-pending project came before the summit earlier this month between President Vladimir Putin and Prime Minister Narendra Modi, the deal was signed last week after price negotiations.
Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route. The deal — under a ‘2+2’ scheme where technology will be transferred to an Indian shipyard to construct two of the frigates from scratch — has been in the works since 2015.
The two ships to be brought from Russia are expected to be delivered by 2022, given that the hulls have already been fabricated for a Russian navy order that got stalled following the Ukrainian crisis. The ships have been designed to work with Ukraine-made gas turbines.
The two frigates are likely to be brought to India after construction to fit the gas turbines at a local yard as the order for turbines has been placed directly by New Delhi with Ukraine, to bypass any complications given the Ukraine-Russian relations.
There had been initial discussions to involve the Indian private sector to build two of the ships but the government decided to nominate state-owned Goa Shipyard. It is not clear if the decision still stands or the ministry will follow a competitive process to determine the local partner.
The Goa Shipyard has been facing financial stress and has not been able to go ahead on an earlier order for new minesweeper vessels that are desperately needed by the Navy.
The process to acquire the minesweepers has been aborted twice and an attempt is now being made to issue tenders for the project.
India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates
The new ships will look amazing with an integrated mast.
So by 2027 the IN will have inducted 11 brand new frigates (7 P17A+4 11356) in the space of 5 years? That’s really not a bad effort, just hope that they give another 7+ order for P-17As, would be criminal to throw away the capacity that is being created by MDL and GRSE.
Now IN really needs to sort out it’s Destroyer program, the P15Bs were ordered in too few quantities and project management and supplier issues have delayed delivery by years.
+ any clarity on the SAM system for these 11356s? A real weakness vis a vis the 17A is the lack of LRSAM and MFSTAR
Last edited:
India, Russia to build stealth frigates
India on Tuesday signed a $500 mn deal with Russia to locally manufacture two stealth frigates with technology transfer. The agreement was signed between Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) and Rosoboronexport of Russia.
“The $500 mn deal is for material, design and specialists assistance from Russia for the two ships. Balance work will be done by GSL, and it will have a whole lot of Indian equipment including BrahMos missiles,” an official source said.
The cost of the engines for the ships which would come directly from Ukraine and the cost of constructing them at GSL are in addition. While the ships are built by Russia, the engines are supplied by Zorya Nashproekt of Ukraine. Four gas turbine engines, gear boxes and specialist support will cost around $50 mn per ship, the source stated.
“Work on the two frigates will start in two years by mid-2020 and is expected to be completed by 2026- 2027,” the source added.
In October 2016, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for four Krivak or Talwar stealth frigates — two to be procured directly from Russia and two to be built by GSL. Of late, GSL has maintained a good track record. It has delivered 28 ships ahead of schedule in the last four years.
India recently signed a $1 bn deal with Russia for direct purchase of two frigates. The basic structures of the two frigates are already ready at Yantar shipyard in Russia and will be finished now.
After the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded approval for the deal, GSL was selected for the project in February 2017. Following this GSL completed the price negotiations with Russia as well as the Defence Ministry and the Indian Navy. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has already cleared the deal.
India had earlier procured six frigates weighing 4000 tonnes of the same class in two different batches, the Talwar class and the upgraded Teg class. The four ships to be built will weigh 300 tonnes more than the earlier ones and will be armed with BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, Navy officials had said earlier.
India on Tuesday signed a $500 mn deal with Russia to locally manufacture two stealth frigates with technology transfer. The agreement was signed between Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) and Rosoboronexport of Russia.
“The $500 mn deal is for material, design and specialists assistance from Russia for the two ships. Balance work will be done by GSL, and it will have a whole lot of Indian equipment including BrahMos missiles,” an official source said.
The cost of the engines for the ships which would come directly from Ukraine and the cost of constructing them at GSL are in addition. While the ships are built by Russia, the engines are supplied by Zorya Nashproekt of Ukraine. Four gas turbine engines, gear boxes and specialist support will cost around $50 mn per ship, the source stated.
“Work on the two frigates will start in two years by mid-2020 and is expected to be completed by 2026- 2027,” the source added.
In October 2016, India and Russia signed an Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) for four Krivak or Talwar stealth frigates — two to be procured directly from Russia and two to be built by GSL. Of late, GSL has maintained a good track record. It has delivered 28 ships ahead of schedule in the last four years.
India recently signed a $1 bn deal with Russia for direct purchase of two frigates. The basic structures of the two frigates are already ready at Yantar shipyard in Russia and will be finished now.
After the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) accorded approval for the deal, GSL was selected for the project in February 2017. Following this GSL completed the price negotiations with Russia as well as the Defence Ministry and the Indian Navy. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has already cleared the deal.
India had earlier procured six frigates weighing 4000 tonnes of the same class in two different batches, the Talwar class and the upgraded Teg class. The four ships to be built will weigh 300 tonnes more than the earlier ones and will be armed with BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles, Navy officials had said earlier.
Turns out the plan is even worse than I had expected. Instead of all 4 by 2024/5, the final 2 won’t be delivered before 2026-7.
By the end of 2025 all 7 17A will have been delivered.
Just gets more and more nonsensical.
we are basically buying equipment from Russia to prevent their dockyards from going bankrupt at the cost of making our own dockyards bankrupt. Imagine all these ships could have easily been made within India by giving orders to all those private dockyards which have gone kaput for lack of orders from Navy and ICG.
