Indo-France Aero Engine Co-Development Program

[_Anonymous_]

If at the end of the day they're getting a "clean sheet" fixed cycle engine that too derived from a TF going back almost 4 decades , what were they doing for the past 5 years ?

I ask for the place holder of a Raksha Mantri had given a clear cut deadline to the MoD in public way back in the first months of 2021 asking them to expedite the JV within the same financial year which would've been the last quarter of FY 2022 i.e. Jan - Mar 2022.

It's been more than 3 years since that date & 4+ years since the place holder of a Raksha Mantri made that statement. So what were they doing all this while ?

Subjecting le Francais to polygraph tests assuming they wouldn't live upto their end of the bargain or playing true to type desi style still trying the extract the last drop from "tough" negotiations which frankly wouldn't have amounted to much in the final reckoning.

 

[YoungWolf]

Have to say that I'm a tad bit disappointed. I was expecting/hoping that Rolls Royce would win the deal, given they were the first to offer a clean-sheet design with joint IPR ownership. While Safran is offering full IPR ownership as per this report, such an offer was made much later compared to the Brits and originally, the French offer hinged on a souped-up M88.

It remains to be seen if the engine resulting from this JV is indeed a clean sheet design or a derivative of the new engine they're making for NGF. If it's the latter, then we'd have effectively subsidised their engine development programme without gaining much for our technological/industrial base. If it's the former, then I guess it'd be worth the €6.1bn we've earmarked to spend on this programme, obviously contingent to the French honouring the terms of agreement and not pulling off a "Russia in PAK-FA/FGFA" with us.

 

[RationalGuy]

Have to say that I'm a tad bit disappointed. I was expecting/hoping that Rolls Royce would win the deal, given they were the first to offer a clean-sheet design with joint IPR ownership. While Safran is offering full IPR ownership as per this report, such an offer was made much later compared to the Brits and originally, the French offer hinged on a souped-up M88.

It remains to be seen if the engine resulting from this JV is indeed a clean sheet design or a derivative of the new engine they're making for NGF. If it's the latter, then we'd have effectively subsidised their engine development programme without gaining much for our technological/industrial base. If it's the former, then I guess it'd be worth the €6.1bn we've earmarked to spend on this programme, obviously contingent to the French honouring the terms of agreement and not pulling off a "Russia in PAK-FA/FGFA" with us.

In my humble opinion, RR was never an option. Though they offered enticing terms, one must remember they are part of the Anglo group, in the end they are beholden to what the US wants them to do. There may even be a possibility that such terms were offered on behest of the US which secretly would have wanted to control Indias jet engine development. Technological considerations are not the only thing, strategic considerations triumph them many times.

In this current deal with France, India must clinch FTB, engine production and ruggedisation, western engine development methods and other techniques which can fuel our own future 100% indigenous engine development programmes. I have a feeling we are at our Viking engine moment for our jet engine development, where we will gain the expertise for advanced engine development and then rapidly make our own 100% indigenous engines based on what we learnt. After all, we did the same for our cryogenic engines.

 

[RationalGuy]

View attachment 45328

If at the end of the day they're getting a "clean sheet" fixed cycle engine that too derived from a TF going back almost 4 decades , what were they doing for the past 5 years ?

I ask for the place holder of a Raksha Mantri had given a clear cut deadline to the MoD in public way back in the first months of 2021 asking them to expedite the JV within the same financial year which would've been the last quarter of FY 2022 i.e. Jan - Mar 2022.

It's been more than 3 years since that date & 4+ years since the place holder of a Raksha Mantri made that statement. So what were they doing all this while ?

Subjecting le Francais to polygraph tests assuming they wouldn't live upto their end of the bargain or playing true to type desi style still trying the extract the last drop from "tough" negotiations which frankly wouldn't have amounted to much in the final reckoning.

I have serious doubts that our negotiators would agree to pay so much for a 4th gen level engine. Let's see. Hopefully it's a 5th gen level engine.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Hopefully the scientist and academia will also parallely improve our own kaveri as we learn the know-why and know-how.



Much of the fund should be utilised to build the testing infra and capacity+capability of niche tech that have allured us.



The Kaveri engine did not recieve half the funding of it, so that is very eye catching for me. No idea what the French are pulling off here. But I hope scientist focus on know-why rather than just being given a imported version of engine developed in France.







Sorry for the lack of articulation. My thoughts have been a bit of mess after this news.

 

[RationalGuy]

Hopefully the scientist and academia will also parallely improve our own kaveri as we learn the know-why and know-how.



Much of the fund should be utilised to build the testing infra and capacity+capability of niche tech that have allured us.



The Kaveri engine did not recieve half the funding of it, so that is very eye catching for me. No idea what the French are pulling off here. But I hope scientist focus on know-why rather than just being given a imported version of engine developed in France.







Sorry for the lack of articulation. My thoughts have been a bit of mess after this news.

It's likely our Viking moment, in Viking we gained expertise on rocket engine tech which was very valuable. Viking still powers our rockets today. This engine will give us expertise on western engine development and testing methods which will be essential for our future programmes.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

Have to say that I'm a tad bit disappointed. I was expecting/hoping that Rolls Royce would win the deal, given they were the first to offer a clean-sheet design with joint IPR ownership. While Safran is offering full IPR ownership as per this report, such an offer was made much later compared to the Brits and originally, the French offer hinged on a souped-up M88.

It remains to be seen if the engine resulting from this JV is indeed a clean sheet design or a derivative of the new engine they're making for NGF. If it's the latter, then we'd have effectively subsidised their engine development programme without gaining much for our technological/industrial base. If it's the former, then I guess it'd be worth the €6.1bn we've earmarked to spend on this programme, obviously contingent to the French honouring the terms of agreement and not pulling off a "Russia in PAK-FA/FGFA" with us.

Don't get disappointed brother... Neither Rolls Royce nor Safran was able to meet 120kN catagory with existing engine's simple upgrade... In both cases it would be a new engine... As Safran will integrate their achieved expertise from M88 core to the new engine, so was Rolls Royce with their EJ200 core... Basically for Both of them this was an opportunity to power up their respective engine programs regarding 6th gen aircrafts... This engine was to be also a technology certifier for both of them before further improving their engines... As far as ACE ( Adaptive Cycle Engine) s are concerned, neither of them was in favour of sharing key technologies... In my opinion this JV is the best possible thing for India because, this will not only provide India with the know-how and IPR but also a chance to further upgrade our Rafale s in future without much problem.... Basically UK is highly unreliable as a partner due to huge foreign influences on its policies, not only the USA but also countries like CANADA and even CHINA.... WHAT WE NOW NEED IS DEVELOPMENT OF ORGANISATIONS ( mainly private) along with DRDO to absorb the jet engine technology in upcoming decade and initiate in-house R&D infrastructure.... With this we'll not only get assurance on manufacturing but also a new ecosystem of aero engine development will start... Hence in future ( after 20 years) we can develop a further more developed aero engine in house, indigenously designed, developed & manufactured.

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946219658862051507

 

[YoungWolf]

In my humble opinion, RR was never an option. Though they offered enticing terms, one must remember they are part of the Anglo group, in the end they are beholden to what the US wants them to do. There may even be a possibility that such terms were offered on behest of the US which secretly would have wanted to control Indias jet engine development. Technological considerations are not the only thing, strategic considerations triumph them many times.

Oh I understand the strategic considerations, and I'm aware that traditionally, UK has largely been a US puppet when it comes to foreign policy. One can observe that the Western allies of the US have grown increasingly disappointed thanks to Trump's antics and have gradually started pivoting away. Given that Rolls Royce is in need of money (and the wider UK economy in general), fears of any possible US maneuvering that could jeopardise the project are a bit exaggerated in the current geopolitical climate. Plus, if we could look towards the UK for jet engine at the height of the Cold War in the 60s, we sure can now given things are a whole lot different.

There are no permanent allies or enemies in geopolitics, just mutual interests. Such a multi-billion pound deal would've seen the UK tilt to our side for the foreseeable future and would've aligned well with Indian military/MoD top brass' age-old tradition of not putting all eggs in one basket. As it stands, we've signed with the French for all our futuristic aero engine programmes. This gives them immense leverage over us, and add to that Rafale being a lock-on for the MRFA increases that leverage even further. I just wanted the military/MoD to diversity their options. The FTB and other testing infra have to come under this deal, otherwise what's the point.

 

[jetray]

mutual interests.

self interest first mutual interest next. UK does not have bargaining power with US but with France it still can negotiate. Earlier it used to be just political in nature now it is economical as well. UK was one of the cntries which signed deal with Trump while even third world countries are thinking twice.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Rolls Royce offer was indeed very tantalizing. However, the French decided to match them point by point. So we chose what was best for us in terms of geo-politics. Sometime back, I already said that we're working silently with the French for even an alternative engine for LCA MK2. That would be based on T-Rex derivative of M-88.



The engine JV for AMCA would be a clean-sheet design with India holding 100% IPR along with 'know how' & 'know why'. Since the Brits offered VCE engine and the French have likely matched their offer, so this engine should also be an adaptive cycle one. Let's see.

 

[Tatvamasi]

Would love to see any European country making a 190kN thrust engine. Even the Chinese are failing spectacularly with it. The only two countries that could pull off something close to the f-135 are the Japanese and the Russians.

They dont have such low bypass engine becuause there is no such requirement. They have every tech to build one. Example, The Rolls-Royce Trent 700 series is a cutting-edge high-bypass engine.

 

[ShiroBarks]

The engine JV for AMCA would be a clean-sheet design with India holding 100% IPR along with 'know how' & 'know why'. Since the Brits offered VCE engine and the French have likely matched their offer, so this engine should also be an adaptive cycle one. Let's see.

No VCE is coming. It will be plain and simple, this engine below, with ~2000K TET. The Brits didn't offer it, and neither did France

I still think RR was just a negotiation tactic on our side. We will never going to get into a deal that big with the Brits

 

[RationalGuy]

Oh I understand the strategic considerations, and I'm aware that traditionally, UK has largely been a US puppet when it comes to foreign policy. One can observe that the Western allies of the US have grown increasingly disappointed thanks to Trump's antics and have gradually started pivoting away. Given that Rolls Royce is in need of money (and the wider UK economy in general), fears of any possible US maneuvering that could jeopardise the project are a bit exaggerated in the current geopolitical climate. Plus, if we could look towards the UK for jet engine at the height of the Cold War in the 60s, we sure can now given things are a whole lot different.

There are no permanent allies or enemies in geopolitics, just mutual interests. Such a multi-billion pound deal would've seen the UK tilt to our side for the foreseeable future and would've aligned well with Indian military/MoD top brass' age-old tradition of not putting all eggs in one basket. As it stands, we've signed with the French for all our futuristic aero engine programmes. This gives them immense leverage over us, and add to that Rafale being a lock-on for the MRFA increases that leverage even further. I just wanted the military/MoD to diversity their options. The FTB and other testing infra have to come under this deal, otherwise what's the point.

UKs nukes are essentially controlled by the US. The hold US has over UK is not just economic. If the US had reason to believe that a potential engine we were developing with RR would be reaching the capability of the engines they have, they probably would have put pressure on the UK to do some gol maal.

America doesn't even want us to have high end GPU manufacturing capabilities despite India being so poor in AI currently. They look 50, 100 years into the future and can easily influence the UK to do their bidding if they want.

 

[Tatvamasi]

No VCE is coming. It will be plain and simple, this engine below, with ~2000K TET. The Brits didn't offer it, and neither did France

Duludu to think Brits will offer a next generation tech that even they dont possess. I-DRW readers need to take a chill pill.

RR didn't offer anything comprehensive or even comparable to French. Some fictional writers just went with it to add some spice.

 

[calutronking]

The reality is that unless someone publishes the note file from the PMO we will not know how this sausage was made and everything else is speculation. It is unlikely that even people who are involved know the whole picture considering the number of stakeholders involved only the PMO will have the full picture. The only thing to be focused on now that a decision has been made is how to get the best bang for the rupee.

Project management has been a failure in every big ticket Indian defense program for the past 70 years. I hope they constitute a high level empowered committee that can direct labs and industries across ministries (MoD, Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Science and Technology, Ministry of Electronics, Ministry of Heavy Industries, Department of Space, and Department of Atomic Energy) to effectively manage this program to deliver rapid results. This coordination and command architecture can only be led at the level of the PMO or alternatively the cabinet secretary.

An effective mechanism for accountability, rapid hiring, rapid firing, rapid promotion, and the participation of the users needs to happen from the beginning. Finally, a great number of excellent engineers who were previously with GTRE/HAL (as well as others) are currently employed in GE, Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, MTU, etc... recruiting them back into the program as consultants or employees would be of immeasurable benefit to the program.

 

[marich01]

Before asking for variable cycle engine or 5th gen engine or related technology etc, have we considered what GTRE/MoD was seeking actually ? it was obvious they were looking for a 110kn class engine primarily based on 4th gen core foreign engine with share / owning of IP by the Govt of India, and that was what got offered. If the RFP was for a 4th gen engine with higher deliverable thrust only, even if a vendor OEM offers VCE or something niche tech , the proposal can / would get rejected for this specific rfp. This process took long time due to discussion over what parts we wanted ToT for and / or JV workshare part. The purpose is to power amca mk2 , maybe latter batches of lca mk2 etc so wanting baseline tech for VCE or else not sure if it was even discussed.

 

[RationalGuy]

The reality is that unless someone publishes the note file from the PMO we will not know how this sausage was made and everything else is speculation. It is unlikely that even people who are involved know the whole picture considering the number of stakeholders involved only the PMO will have the full picture. The only thing to be focused on now that a decision has been made is how to get the best bang for the rupee.

Project management has been a failure in every big ticket Indian defense program for the past 70 years. I hope they constitute a high level empowered committee that can direct labs and industries across ministries (MoD, Ministry of Finance, Ministry of Science and Technology, Ministry of Electronics, Ministry of Heavy Industries, Department of Space, and Department of Atomic Energy) to effectively manage this program to deliver rapid results. This coordination and command architecture can only be led at the level of the PMO or alternatively the cabinet secretary.

An effective mechanism for accountability, rapid hiring, rapid firing, rapid promotion, and the participation of the users needs to happen from the beginning. Finally, a great number of excellent engineers who were previously with GTRE/HAL (as well as others) are currently employed in GE, Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, MTU, etc... recruiting them back into the program as consultants or employees would be of immeasurable benefit to the program.

Wrong. Project management in every defence program has not been a failure. If so, India wouldn't have had nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, or nuclear submarines. Building SSBN with SLBM is a feat harder than building an entire space program or even a fighter jet.

Even blackballing has its limits ffs.

 

[ShiroBarks]

One more thing, I don’t think it’ll be based on the M88 core.

I did some basic calculations, and yeah, it just doesn’t seem possible to achieve that thrust and still make it fit into the AMCA

I don't buy that previous news article

 

[Subgradewalker]

Will they release the specifics of the agreement to public? Not sensitive details but atleast general specs and development direction of engine.
And the role of foreign partner+ the extent of involvement from private sector and academia