GTRE Kaveri Engine

[Hydra]

In today's scenarios, where dogfighting is out of the equation and we only require a platform to fire weapons from a standoff range, what will be the impact of a poor thrust-to-weight ratio engine? We should develop the Kaveri with an existing afterburner section, or the M88 afterburner should work fine, and maybe work on the development of the Mk2 twin engine as a jugad.

CAP cannot be undone even during peace time,forget about war like scenario.

Also What if enemy comes near to you by breaking or sneaking in to our ground based air defence, or enemy had a top end SAM systems? You will have to evade them by manoeuvring in earlier case and you need to break in to enemy airspace in later case. You need a high t/w ratio engine there. Remember we had an enemy on western sector who can acces NATO weapons ,and an enemy on east whois becoming a superpower only after USA.

I don't think GOI will initiate a twin engine tejasmk2 program.

It had ,and was known as MCA. Later incorporated stealth to that concept and now it is known as AMCA.

 

[Subgradewalker]

Its the mistake of we Indians that we had choose GE engine for mk2 program. EJ200 is far more advanced and had better growth potential than F414 (then and now also) when we had choose f414 EJ200 over cost. Political uncertainty from US is another aspect. Still we choose that engine without foresight.

A blunder decision by india when we had choose F414, i said this in another forum belongs our western neighbourhood.

It was probably a decision where geopolitics weighed heavily.

But things are uncertain now, let's see how things fold further. Actually, there is no political uncertainty in USA. Their foreign policy is largely bipartisan barring trump 2.0.

 

[_Anonymous_]

https://twitter.com/idrwalerts/status/1957625008638828944?s=19

This is a very interesting development & something very encouraging if true of which there's a good chance given the background of Godrej's association with the KED project. Then again this is I D R W we're talking about, so T&C apply.

No harm in speculating I suppose. If Godrej is chosen as the production partner, it should be part of all the D&D activities from day 1 given it's the production agency as M/s S. Jha & Sriram Thyagarajan have been arguing since long.

Further it's time GoI looks to expedite our Naval Propulsion Systems thru a JV between RR & HAL. We can't wait till 2047 to realise these as per the IN's own wish list for the global geo political scenario is changing rapidly.

RR is in a bit of a spot now, we can't trust it enough with the development of the most vital item lacking in our inventory but we can surely do so with something not top most but pretty high in our priority list namely the IEP for the IN.

If things don't work out the way we want, the SAFRAN GTRE Godrej JV can be our back up where the TF we develop thru the JV can then be spun off into a Marine TF derivative.

Speaking of back ups we need to pursue the Kaveri or KED program to its logical conclusion namely in developing a GE F-404 equivalent to power the Mk-1a in its MLU.

Once such a TF is developed we can think in terms of whether that could be spun off with an up rated version being the equivalent of the GE F-414 TF to power the Mk-2 during its MLU.

It can either be this variant or a down rated version of the 120 KN TF we're developing thru the JV with SAFRAN . Such a call can be taken at the appropriate time.

Further, if we're going in for the Su-57, we ought to insist on full ToT meaning know how & know why of the AL-51 TF. Difficult but doable. That should be the remit of HAL GTRE in a JV with NPO Saturn .

This should give us the knowledge to develop our own heavy duty TFs with thrusts exceeding 170 KN for the upcoming AHCA to replace the MKIs.

This then is the road map for multiple redundancies in case any one of the various plans above don't materialise or deliver sub optimal results .

Finally for all this to happen for once I hope Leaderji , his inept place holder of a Raksha Mantri & the BA ( Hons) in Eng Literature pass babooos in the MoD read the writing on the wall post Trump's shenanigans & open up their minds along with their purse strings for all what I've listed above to be realised or be prepared to open up their cheeks & with it the cheeks of the entire nation.

 

[marich01]

Godrez or any other co can not randomly or suddenly become a partner. i mean they are qualified and will be one participating as vendor side, but only if GTRE-DRDO and MoD is looking to develop such an engine and release rfp for the same after approval by MoD, project clearance, get all the necessary process done etc etc. That would take some months after MoD hold informal talk, see preparedness and if felt necessary then get go head.

See this, many defence newsmakers miss the point, the initiative and go ahead rests with the govt side, only after top brass hint to proceed then the work start. Top brass ie the political coalition whoever is in power, they control everything and always seek what good is for them in it. If they feel there is not much incentive in it, they won't give the go ahead no matter how promising or critical the tech domain is, or they will approve some small scale program which would be successful at small scale, then that success will be used as bargaining chip to bring the matured tech from foreign country and local program will not see further progress. Whoever the foreign tech oem is, would not want to lose business (how good tech is not of concern, rather losing the long term business volume is) and in turn lobby their own Govt side for approval on such if critical tech, then come into understanding with a desi local partner.

For a long time our govt tried encouraging the practice of bringing tech to the country via licensing and jv, that habit is not gonna die anytime soon.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Godrez or any other co can not randomly or suddenly become a partner. i mean they are qualified and will be one participating as vendor side, but only if GTRE-DRDO and MoD is looking to develop such an engine and release rfp for the same after approval by MoD, project clearance, get all the necessary process done etc etc. That would take some months after MoD hold informal talk, see preparedness and if felt necessary then get go head.

They got selected to be the mfg agency for the KED prototypes didn't they ? If they have the kind of expertise to see them as good enough to qualify for mfg the KED prototypes why shouldn't they be good enough to qualify to be the mfg agency for the upcoming 120 KN TF ?

This also dovetails with the GoI agenda to develop an alternative SCM cum OEM system from the DPSU.

I'm not in the least bit saying Godrej has been selected as the mfg agency but asking why do you think they lack the credentials ?

See this, many defence newsmakers miss the point, the initiative and go ahead rests with the govt side, only after top brass hint to proceed then the work start. Top brass ie the political coalition whoever is in power, they control everything and always seek what good is for them in it. If they feel there is not much incentive in it, they won't give the go ahead no matter how promising or critical the tech domain is, or they will approve some small scale program which would be successful at small scale, then that success will be used as bargaining chip to bring the matured tech from foreign country and local program will not see further progress. Whoever the foreign tech oem is, would not want to lose business (how good tech is not of concern, rather losing the long term business volume is) and in turn lobby their own Govt side for approval on such if critical tech, then come into understanding with a desi local partner.

Are you suggesting the 120 KN TF project is in doubt & if so why do you think that's the case especially with news reports emanating about the MoD clearing the deal in favour of SAFRAN & the PM announcing as much on Independence Day without getting into the specifics.

For a long time our govt tried encouraging the practice of bringing tech to the country via licensing and jv, that habit is not gonna die anytime soon.

Frankly I really can't tell what're you getting at ?

 

[RationalGuy]

Godrez or any other co can not randomly or suddenly become a partner. i mean they are qualified and will be one participating as vendor side, but only if GTRE-DRDO and MoD is looking to develop such an engine and release rfp for the same after approval by MoD, project clearance, get all the necessary process done etc etc. That would take some months after MoD hold informal talk, see preparedness and if felt necessary then get go head.

See this, many defence newsmakers miss the point, the initiative and go ahead rests with the govt side, only after top brass hint to proceed then the work start. Top brass ie the political coalition whoever is in power, they control everything and always seek what good is for them in it. If they feel there is not much incentive in it, they won't give the go ahead no matter how promising or critical the tech domain is, or they will approve some small scale program which would be successful at small scale, then that success will be used as bargaining chip to bring the matured tech from foreign country and local program will not see further progress. Whoever the foreign tech oem is, would not want to lose business (how good tech is not of concern, rather losing the long term business volume is) and in turn lobby their own Govt side for approval on such if critical tech, then come into understanding with a desi local partner.

For a long time our govt tried encouraging the practice of bringing tech to the country via licensing and jv, that habit is not gonna die anytime soon.

Well if 404, 414 falls off, I have a feeling there will be a new massive push for domestic engines.

 

[marich01]

Well if 404, 414 falls off, I have a feeling there will be a new massive push for domestic engines.

404 is not that much imp, since engines are wholly supplied to HAL from GE. So its a full product import. The414 case is local production with raw material source part being discussed where GE obviously push for their own supply chain + mfg of critical parts still kept out of sight. Those parts of ToT are still being ironed out and expected to progress. Lets see what happens.

As much as I would like, domestic engine push will be mostly jv with france or rus more likely, than full work by GTRE which would further delay compared to the former jv route.

 

[darshan978]

https://twitter.com/idrwalerts/status/1957625008638828944?s=19

This is a very interesting development & something very encouraging if true of which there's a good chance given the background of Godrej's association with the KED project. Then again this is I D R W we're talking about, so T&C apply.

No harm in speculating I suppose. If Godrej is chosen as the production partner, it should be part of all the D&D activities from day 1 given it's the production agency as M/s S. Jha & Sriram Thyagarajan have been arguing since long.

Further it's time GoI looks to expedite our Naval Propulsion Systems thru a JV between RR & HAL. We can't wait till 2047 to realise these as per the IN's own wish list for the global geo political scenario is changing rapidly.

RR is in a bit of a spot now, we can't trust it enough with the development of the most vital item lacking in our inventory but we can surely do so with something not top most but pretty high in our priority list namely the IEP for the IN.

If things don't work out the way we want, the SAFRAN GTRE Godrej JV can be our back up where the TF we develop thru the JV can then be spun off into a Marine TF derivative.

Speaking of back ups we need to pursue the Kaveri or KED program to its logical conclusion namely in developing a GE F-404 equivalent to power the Mk-1a in its MLU.

Once such a TF is developed we can think in terms of whether that could be spun off with an up rated version being the equivalent of the GE F-414 TF to power the Mk-2 during its MLU.

It can either be this variant or a down rated version of the 120 KN TF we're developing thru the JV with SAFRAN . Such a call can be taken at the appropriate time.

Further, if we're going in for the Su-57, we ought to insist on full ToT meaning know how & know why of the AL-51 TF. Difficult but doable. That should be the remit of HAL GTRE in a JV with NPO Saturn .

This should give us the knowledge to develop our own heavy duty TFs with thrusts exceeding 170 KN for the upcoming AHCA to replace the MKIs.

This then is the road map for multiple redundancies in case any one of the various plans above don't materialise or deliver sub optimal results .

Finally for all this to happen for once I hope Leaderji , his inept place holder of a Raksha Mantri & the BA ( Hons) in Eng Literature pass babooos in the MoD read the writing on the wall post Trump's shenanigans & open up their minds along with their purse strings for all what I've listed above to be realised or be prepared to open up their cheeks & with it the cheeks of the entire nation.

another AI generated I.D.R.W slope.

 

[marich01]

They got selected to be the mfg agency for the KED prototypes didn't they ? If they have the kind of expertise to see them as good enough to qualify for mfg the KED prototypes why shouldn't they be good enough to qualify to be the mfg agency for the upcoming 120 KN TF ?

This also dovetails with the GoI agenda to develop an alternative SCM cum OEM system from the DPSU.

I'm not in the least bit saying Godrej has been selected as the mfg agency but asking why do you think they lack the credentials ?

I do not mean they lack credential or competency , just that unless a domestic engine program begins after Govt give nod for go ahead , it will still be kept under strict Govt control. So the scope where Godrej or TATA or any other big OEM would venture into engine making , that scope is zero. DRDO-GTRE would always be the boss, a psu like HAL would be lead integrator and pvt co like Godrej or LT would always be tier 1 vendor under HAL overseeing the program , under the boss GTRE. I do not see this model changing.

Lets say G&B did some jv and actually made one usable engine and offered to user IAF, that would not be deemed acceptable unless GTRE or HAL as oem were not involved in the process from the start, like from inspection of raw material stage to process, then to test report, bench test etc everything should be via their nominated expertise at their own scheduling. You can not separately hire the same expert QA person in same manner like they do to finish the work few week or month early. The co-ordinator from GTRE side or even MoD side see it as insult, would not clear your bills. HAL in turn would cite reasons to not integrate the same with the jet etc.

So far most of the top end dcpp have all gone to BEL BDL like psu, full integrated programs with high level of export prospect and overall cost. Govt & bureaucracy is not used to corporate model yet, they lobby hard and revert the process back into their favour. I do not see this pattern change.

Are you suggesting the 120 KN TF project is in doubt & if so why do you think that's the case especially with news reports emanating about the MoD clearing the deal in favour of SAFRAN & the PM announcing as much on Independence Day without getting into the specifics.

No this jv should proceed since the current Govt side has been in power for long enough to decide on this and other stakeholders are also in unison.
Just a matter of time now i think.

Frankly I really can't tell what're you getting at ?

The IPR of the jv engine will still be shared IP. So in a way it will still be a form of license mfg except with greater control maybe. This is a comfort zone our Govt loathe to leave and i do not see it changing anytime soon. We will make many new integrated systems but will continue to make many license mfg products as well. The Israeli ones , some french weapons are some example. In comparison China by hook or crook have tried to build and build which finally yield positive result.

 

[_Anonymous_]

another AI generated I.D.R.W slope.

In case you didn't notice I added the disclaimer in the very first lines. Further it's not beyond the realms of speculation.

If that were so the task for mfg / assembly of the KED prototypes would have automatically gone to HAL Koraput. They're a dead ringer for the job. In fact there were many who were surprised when Godrej was chosen as the mfg agency for the KED prototypes.

Yet Godrej was chosen. If their performance is satisfactory & the KED is successfully certified there's a very high chance Godrej will be selected to mfg / assemble the KED for the production variants.

This wouldn't have been possible without a nod from the highest levels & I mean the PMO & CCS . This is a continuation of the GoI's policy to encourage the private sector as a counter balance to the DPSU.

You'd have to see Godrej being chosen as a mfg agency for the 120 KN TF JV in the same light as the Pvt Sector being made a partner alongside HAL for a FAL for the AMCA.

If the latter is possible & is even being undertaken why can't the former be ? At least in Godrej's defence they're already involved in the KED program. Which FA has either TASL or Mahindra Aerospace or L&T or any of the various bidders there fully assembled ?

And they've been pre qualified to do so for a 5th Gen FA no less.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I do not mean they lack credential or competency , just that unless a domestic engine program begins after Govt give nod for go ahead , it will still be kept under strict Govt control. So the scope where Godrej or TATA or any other big OEM would venture into engine making , that scope is zero. DRDO-GTRE would always be the boss, a psu like HAL would be lead integrator and pvt co like Godrej or LT would always be tier 1 vendor under HAL overseeing the program , under the boss GTRE. I do not see this model changing.

You don't see such an arrangement happening with the AMCA do you ? Although in principle I agree with your stance. Yet the GoI has gone against better judgement to get a Pvt Sector Player to be an equal partner with HAL in a JV for a FAL for the AMCA.

If you can make sense out of that move why shouldn't you exercise the same yardstick for this particular assignment regarding Godrej being selected as the mfg agency for the 120 KN TF JV ?

Lets say G&B did some jv and actually made one usable engine and offered to user IAF, that would not be deemed acceptable unless GTRE or HAL as oem were not involved in the process from the start, like from inspection of raw material stage to process, then to test report, bench test etc everything should be via their nominated expertise at their own scheduling. You can not separately hire the same expert QA person in same manner like they do to finish the work few week or month early. The co-ordinator from GTRE side or even MoD side see it as insult, would not clear your bills. HAL in turn would cite reasons to not integrate the same with the jet etc.

That's the reason I clearly wrote there whomsoever the production agency is , should be involved in development activities right from the onset. That way all the apprehensions you've expressed can be nipped in the bud.

So far most of the top end dcpp have all gone to BEL BDL like psu, full integrated programs with high level of export prospect and overall cost. Govt & bureaucracy is not used to corporate model yet, they lobby hard and revert the process back into their favour. I do not see this pattern change.

Right . So please explain to me how's it that GoI has decided to go in for a JV for the FAL for AMCA with a Pvt Sector Player partnering with HAL ? And if that be the case , why can't the same yardstick be applied to Godrej or PTC or any other Pvt Sector Player ?

No this jv should proceed since the current Govt side has been in power for long enough to decide on this and other stakeholders are also in unison.
Just a matter of time now i think.

The IPR of the jv engine will still be shared IP. So in a way it will still be a form of license mfg except with greater control maybe. This is a comfort zone our Govt loathe to leave and i do not see it changing anytime soon. We will make many new integrated systems but will continue to make many license mfg products as well. The Israeli ones , some french weapons are some example. In comparison China by hook or crook have tried to build and build which finally yield positive result.

Shared IPR is similar to what you've with the MRSAM we've developed with Israel in a JV . Right now the latter has ditched DRDO & are using their own dual pulse motor apart from other developments DRDO undertook exporting the missile to their clients totally neglecting their contractual obligations.

That's the sanctity the west attaches to JV with third world countries including India. Not saying France will necessarily replicate the Israeli move .

Rather I'm of the opinion if the KED is successfully certified , Godrej will be the production agency to mfg / assemble the KED for all the production variants of the Ghatak .

This then opens the door for them to be the DcPP for the KED-2 if you like which'd be the equivalent of the GE F-104 equivalent to power the MK-1a during the MLU.

If that be the case which is quite likely , HAL Koraput would be selected as the production agency for the 120 KN TF JV .

In all honesty I don't foresee both projects being undertaken by HAL.

 

[Tatvamasi]

another AI generated I.D.R.W slope.

It's like made up discussion of saas bahu serials. Time pass.

 

[Sathya]

We stand vindicated

Now I just hope for that M88 version deal

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958850248820081124

What's this about?

Edit : got it, it's assumed from Defence minister speech.

 

[ShiroBarks]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958854734263329142

Hehe, let's do this quickly now


Edit:

There are two engine M88-4 (105 kN class) offered for the Mk2 and one the Co-development one (120 kN class) for AMCA



It's a done deal for the latter, for former it will depend if the GE deal goes through or not

I hope we take it regardless, I can't take 3-4 more US elections

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958855243879321606

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958855781895286991

 

[Subgradewalker]

Now comes the hardest part for us defense enthusiast. Waiting!!

 

[lmaoxd]

ah so this now puts pressure on GE to actually deliver their engine TOT. The only issue with this deal is that the tejas mk2 is designed with the GEf414 in mind so its gonna have further delays if we actually transition to the M88-4. unless they were designed with that redundancy in mind but i dont think our HAL/ADA babus are capable of that much foresight

 

[Sathya]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958855781895286991

S Jha in the video says it ll take 13 years to get the co developed engine .

 

[Rajput Lion]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1958854734263329142

View attachment 46014


Hehe, let's do this quickly now


Edit:

There are two engine M88-4 (105 kN class) offered for the Mk2 and one the Co-development one (120 kN class) for AMCA

View attachment 46015

It's a done deal for the latter, for former it will depend if the GE deal goes through or not

I hope we take it regardless, I can't take 3-4 more US elections

And when I said this two months back, most didn't believe: