Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)


this person once said MK2 won't be a reality. Bit scared now.
Even with those 114 Rafales, IAF faces a shortfall of 5-6 squadrons to reach its stated goal of 42 squadrons.
Unless the IAF makes the Govt somehow agree on procurement of another 90-118 Rafales (meaning another $25-30 billion), I don't see the Tejas Mk2 going anywhere, not to mention the program is at higher level of maturity compared to TEDBF.
 
Even with those 114 Rafales, IAF faces a shortfall of 5-6 squadrons to reach its stated goal of 42 squadrons.
Unless the IAF makes the Govt somehow agree on procurement of another 90-118 Rafales (meaning another $25-30 billion), I don't see the Tejas Mk2 going anywhere, not to mention the program is at higher level of maturity compared to TEDBF.
Its @Hellfire version. Whatever he says happens most of the time.
 
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The Navy should focus on the EMALS system first. If we're set with EMALS, then we can think about the AMCA for the naval version. It makes sense financially since the IAF is already involved in this project, so it should be doable. I don't think the TEDBF is economically feasible... may be the MK2 naval version will be a good option.

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The Navy should focus on the EMALS system first. If we're set with EMALS, then we can think about the AMCA for the naval version. It makes sense financially since the IAF is already involved in this project, so it should be doable. I don't think the TEDBF is economically feasible... may be the MK2 naval version will be a good option.

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We would probably be one of the very few nations who junked steam based catapults onboard the original INS Vikrant and converted it into a STOVL carrier.
I wonder what happened to those steam catapults
 
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TEDBF was supposed to have had it's first flight in 2026 as per statements by the ADA in AI-21 IIRC, the scheduling being Mk-2 -> 2022 , AMCA - > 2024 & TEDBF-> 2026 .

I'd put it down to intense lobbying by the 3 services for resources over the years.

The IAF has doggedly opposed the expansion of the IAC prog (and by extension naval air arm) which it sees as intruding onto its (AF) turf.

The IAF found an unlikely ally in late-CDS Bipin Rawat who publicly asked the IN to focus on subs vs carriers a couple years ago.

In my view, this changed the GoIs perspective on the need for IAC-2 and TEDBF.

AMCA kept getting delayed because the GoI had a bee in its bonnet about allotting it to the Pvt Sector in which we lost 3 years & so on till the latest development.
Despite being down to 29 sqns, the IAF has flatly refused to consider ORCA/TEDBF. A potential partnership would've made the whole prog viable.

The pvt sector would've latched on to it almost immediately.

Those TEDBFs could easily go up to twice the numbers projected namely from 60 nos to 120 nos if not more. In addition the IN could also feature 2-3 squadrons of N-LCA if not more as trainers & for a shore based patrol role.

The IN scaled back its plans for 57 MRCBF (Rafale-m) only temporarily after GoIs austerity measures post COVID. With 26 + 31, TEDBF is DOA.

It's no coincidence that the TEDBF evolved from a twin-engined mk2 into a virtual Rafale lookalike. They want an off the shelf solution to hedge against risk.

Let's assume we start the project in 2030. When do you think we'd induct the first of these 5th Gen TEDBF? By 2050 ? I can't see how we'd get it before that. And what would we do in the interim?

ADAs timeline for 5G carrier based jet didn't align with the INs threat perceptions. They eventually reached a compromise solution which was TEDBF.

Those threat perceptions have changed considerably over the last few years. A 5G jet is now essential. We'll have to see what route they finally take.

If your answer is a UCAV, where's it? What are we going to equip the proverbial 3rd & 4th IAC with in as far as the Naval Aviation Complex goes?
Newspace's Abhimanyu N-CCA of course. Sure, in its present form, it's little more than a one way suicide drone. But there are more ambitious plans in the works. We'll know more soon enough.
 
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Its @Hellfire version. Whatever he says happens most of the time.

His assesment is primarily because of engine troubles. ( March is next month, already 6 times deadlines were extended)
Then his prediction is only until 2030.
( He predicted only few additional Rafales before 2030 , didn't predict 114 deal +31 Rafale M s )
Third he believes Mk2 will be very late to be useful. ( I suppose Amca will be closer to it's schedule)
 
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I'd put it down to intense lobbying by the 3 services for resources over the years.

The IAF has doggedly opposed the expansion of the IAC prog (and by extension naval air arm) which it sees as intruding onto its (AF) turf.
Well then it's for the MoD to come down hard on the bickering parties. For that you need a Long Term Perspective Plan . For which even if adherence isn't cent percent for whatever reasons your aim would be to reach as close as possible if not in the prescribed year then ASAP.

For that you need specialists in the MoD . Not BA Hons in Eng Lit babooos nor chauthi mein char baar fail dhotis. Result - what we have is ad hocism.

The IAF found an unlikely ally in late-CDS Bipin Rawat who publicly asked the IN to focus on subs vs carriers a couple years ago.
The same Bipin Rawat also advocated piece meal acquisition of the Rafales for the IAF a la MKI which led to a huge showdown in public between himself & ACM Chaudhari. Let's not go there. The entire state of affairs as far as defence procurement goes is sickening.
In my view, this changed the GoIs perspective on the need for IAC-2 and TEDBF.
If that's the case why was the TEDBF announced ? The IN after being rebuffed by the IAF to partner on the AMCA program decided the ADA didn't have the depth to conduct two 5th Gen FA programs & opted for the TEDBF.

IMO the resemblance to the Rafale M could also be deliberate based on IN's inputs. They can always turn around & tell the MoD , ADA lacks the required expertise & instead of setting off on another wild goose chase like the Tejas program , it's better the IN goes in for the total qtys prescribed in the MRCBF tender which now becomes easier as DA is setting up shop here. Seems far fetched ? I doubt it. That's exactly how things are unfolding.

Now imagine if this is the case with a branch of the armed service which has always been a champion of indigenization I shudder to think what happens when real baniya cos like Adani enter the fray.


Despite being down to 29 sqns, the IAF has flatly refused to consider ORCA/TEDBF. A potential partnership would've made the whole prog viable.
I've written about this before. ORCA was IN's & HAL's plan to inveigle the IAF for the TEDBF. The reasons forwarded then was that the qtys for the TEDBF were far too low to justify a standalone project on its own .

HAL was smarting from the very public humiliation DA subjected it too. IAF didn't budge. They were too infatuated with the Rafale at the cost of everything else .
The pvt sector would've latched on to it almost immediately.

The IN scaled back its plans for 57 MRCBF (Rafale-m) only temporarily after GoIs austerity measures post COVID. With 26 + 31, TEDBF is DOA.

It's no coincidence that the TEDBF evolved from a twin-engined mk2 into a virtual Rafale lookalike. They want an off the shelf solution to hedge against risk.



ADAs timeline for 5G carrier based jet didn't align with the INs threat perceptions. They eventually reached a compromise solution which was TEDBF.

Those threat perceptions have changed considerably over the last few years. A 5G jet is now essential. We'll have to see what route they finally take.
Yeah . Good luck getting a 5th Gen when China'd be getting their 6th Gen Naval FA . The IN could've embarked on the 4.5 Gen ++ TEDBF in full earnest & prepared plans for a 6th Gen Naval FA to be kicked off in 2030.

This is the kind of initiative the old IN used to be known for. I don't know what the present leadership in the IN stands for. Kick the IAF on the backfoot. Force the MoD to tie up the IAF with the IN for a joint FA project beginning with the Naval version.
Newspace's Abhimanyu N-CCA of course. Sure, in its present form, it's little more than a one way suicide drone. But there are more ambitious plans in the works. We'll know more soon enough.
Let me know if you see anything coming by 2040. And that includes the Ghatak . The IN version is supposed to follow the IAF version.
 
Now Mod won't sanction TEDBF before that 31 F5 v of Rafale M is ordered.

Anyways let wait for Mk1A to finish the development.

Mk2 to begin the test flight

Amca consortium to be selected and build prototype..

Then worry about TEDBF sanction.
 
IMO the resemblance to the Rafale M could also be deliberate based on IN's inputs. They can always turn around & tell the MoD , ADA lacks the required expertise & instead of setting off on another wild goose chase like the Tejas program , it's better the IN goes in for the total qtys prescribed in the MRCBF tender which now becomes easier as DA is setting up shop here. Seems far fetched ? I doubt it. That's exactly how things are unfolding.
The IN must've been under pressure to show some continuity between the cancelled LCA-N Mk1 and TEDBF programs. They had to protect their image of being the most pro-indigenization service.

IMO the resemblance to the Rafale M could also be deliberate based on IN's inputs
The LCA-N Mk2 concept was a thoroughly revised multi role carrier based fighter with a front end that was heavily inspired by the Rafale. Only flaw: single engine.

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Imo, it'd have made for a smoother transition to a 5G jet vs the 25t twin engine jet we now have. Perhaps, it could have been relegated to the role of carrier-based LIFT later on. And that's where we lost the plot.

More complexity when you barely have a functioning airwing (with MiG-29K being a complete dud) can never be a good thing.


I've written about this before. ORCA was IN's & HAL's plan to inveigle the IAF for the TEDBF. The reasons forwarded then was that the qtys for the TEDBF were far too low to justify a standalone project on its own .

HAL was smarting from the very public humiliation DA subjected it too. IAF didn't budge. They were too infatuated with the Rafale at the cost of everything else .
Well, the IAF did have a requirement for a MRFA and HAL would've been well within its rights to propose a solution.

Besides, the scale vs cost advantages would've been obvious to even the IAF. Although, HAL/ADA program management credentials were never reassuring and both services decided to hedge against dev risk by opting for a proven solution.

Imo, TEDBFs only USP is/was that it was designed for STOBAR ops, not a compromise solution like Rafale-m (clipped wing tips, etc).

But the IN believes the trade-off is acceptable.

In terms of avionics and sensors, TEDBF would've had virtually the same fit as AMCA. Or so it was said. But the IN still chose to buy more Rafale. We must also remember that the Vikrant class CVS can only carry 24-30 ac at a time.

The EMALS-equipped, CATOBARs are atleast 10-15 years in the future.
 
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Most countries work around one fighter project and make it deliverable at all cost but here we are working parallely on 3 projects like our aerospace sector is really strong (which is obviously not the case) and we can sustain all the three projects.
 
Looks like 4.5 gen TEDBF is over if additional rafale-M are coming ( its almost confirmed ). so are they planning to go for clean sheet 5th generation design ?
A 4.5 gen tedbf was always pointless. What we need is something similar to a j-35/superhornet. A fifth gen naval fighter. Could be done like the k-fx.
First phase can be 4.5 gen then 5th gen on the lines of the GCAP
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It can slowly transfer to the IAF as well considering IN is much more cooperative when it comes to indigenous products.
Tedbf needs to switch to a fifth gen af design and production route should be similar to KAI KFX and capabilities should be similar to the superhornet and growler.
Even with those 114 Rafales, IAF faces a shortfall of 5-6 squadrons to reach its stated goal of 42 squadrons.
Unless the IAF makes the Govt somehow agree on procurement of another 90-118 Rafales (meaning another $25-30 billion), I don't see the Tejas Mk2 going anywhere, not to mention the program is at higher level of maturity compared to TEDBF.
We need 350-400 su-30mki and 250 rafales and 400 Tejas mk1/mk1c/mk1b's and 300 Tejas mk2.
Most useless project ever..... Nothing but waste of resources. Everything need to be concentrated on 5th generation & above.
Tedbf is our j-35/kai kfx analogue. It's extremely important if India want naval supremacy in IOR and beyond.
 
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He needs to elaborate more, what exactly GoI/MoD intends.
He didn't say that VCE will be imported straight.
When GTRE can't make afterburning 4gen engine then either it needs unrestricted R&D money to make 5gen & 6gen engine,
OR domestic private consortium should do it, like our own GE, P&W, RR, Safran,
OR domestic PPP,
OR international PPP.

which may take-
10-15 years for 5gen afterburning engine for AMCA Mk2, 5+gen TEDBF.
10-15 years for 6gen afterburning VCE for 6gen AHCA/HFA for IN+IAF.

Either ways both have to begin this year.

For 5gen AMCA, F414 80% ToT is being arranged,
but for 6gen TD jet , we can't wait for ToT, but should negotiate any powerful 5gen or even 4gen engine w/o ToT, w/o arm twisting, to fly the TD airframe & test basic equipments.

Actually in worse case, IMO even if we don't get VCE to switch b/w power & increased fuel economy modes of BPR, still a 5gen engine would suffice for thrust, stealth, electricity.