Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[TARGET]

India India should participate in the FCAS program to stay up-to-date with the latest technological advancements, and we can also utilize this program for AMCA upgrades.

 

[randomradio]

From design freeze to full rate production in 6 years is straight up delusional.

This is possible now. F-47 is operating along similar timelines, 2025-2032, so France should be able to repeat it.

It's the start and the middle bit that's gonna be slow if India's involved. Plus I don't see France going for the prototype right away, ie, 2029.

Rafale LRIP delivery was planned for 1996 but was pushed to 2001 due to budget cuts. So 5 years for LRIP and 3 more years for IOC.

AMCA is expected to manage it in 4 years between first flight and IOC too. We are skipping the TD phase.

 

[Rajput Lion]

GoI's sudden interest in SCAF is just them fishing for information. I wouldn't read too much into it. First off, Macron needs to be replaced. Then the partners need to break up, which should last at least until the demonstrator is flying. So let's not expect anything major happening until it's all over first.

IAF is mostly likely going to buy a 6th gen jet. My options have always been Mig-41, F-47, and GCAP for now. If we are to select SCAF as a larger program, we may go about it similar to FGFA, where the French work on the airframe, avionics, and engine on their own, while we step in for a slightly modified airframe and our own avionics. We will end up sharing a small portion of the costs for the airframe and engine while independently developing different avionics. What do you think @Picdelamirand-oil?

SCAF will be seen as a replacement for the MKI though.

In any case, as I had claimed before, ADA is unlikely to work on a 6th gen design for the IAF. They will have to aim for the IN while focusing on 7th gen for the IAF. ADA is unlikely to partner in an FGFA-style program. It will be headed by a private sector company, probably the one chosen to manufacture Rafales.

Anyway, this is quite a distance away. Su-57 and SCAF are both distractions to prevent hiccups in the Rafale deal.

I'm not a big fan of the GCAP, Germany and Japan are way too pacifist for our taste. Mig-41 is an interceptor. F-47 comes with strings attached, but will come in really fast, and in small numbers anyway. But only these 3 jets will be available in 2035, for induction by 2040. SCAF is closer to 2050.

It will be interesting if it turns out the IAF is chasing after Su-57 in order to make a play for an early F-47 induction. Showing interest in SCAF can also put greater pressure on them. Although relations are slightly strained with the Americans at the moment, it's still temporary and will go back to normal in a few months, long before their lower house elections.

Sorry brah, no American jets for us. IAF has directly told GOI that they won't ever accept US jets with restricted access and usage permission. And Murica aint offering its crown jewels to us without compromise.

For 6th gen, we will follow same formula which we have adopted for our 5th gen, i.e., one foreign(Su-57) and one Indian(AMCA).

I revealed in the AHCA thread started by Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik that internally our AHCA program has been given a go ahead in last year itself. FCAS exploration is because IAF is tired of waiting for domestic programmes to deliver on time and don't want belated access to 6th gen tech. Let's see what we choose.

 

[randomradio]

As we go more and more deep in past, the aircraft become more and more simpler.

Complexity is increasing exponentially and standards of testing becoming more rigorous.



Even the supposed size of FCAS at ~30tons mtow with 2 120kn engines, is just too small for the capability envisioned for 6th gen, as the main control node and high electrical & cooling requirements as basic.
Along with decent future upgrade potential, you expect this type of strategic investment to remain relevant for decades.

Minimum SU57's size Even for a smaller 6th gen( ~35tons mtow)

GCAP is pushing 40+tons mtow, f47 looks about the same.

AMCA already is reaching 27tons mtow, near FCAS's current projection.


Plus ASN4G will need SU57 sized jet minimum to carry internally .

You need extra large size only if you need long range. France does not have such a requirement. Both IAF and ASF are centered around endurance designs instead.

We prefer higher sorties and faster turnaround times with long on-station missions. Long range designs are not necessarily more capable but are definitely super expensive.

Long range designs are necessary if you have to cover massive ranges and run operations independently without alternative sensor support. It doesn't necessarily make them better than endurance designs.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

As we go more and more deep in past, the aircraft become more and more simpler.

Complexity is increasing exponentially and standards of testing becoming more rigorous.



Even the supposed size of FCAS at ~30tons mtow with 2 120kn engines, is just too small for the capability envisioned for 6th gen, as the main control node and high electrical & cooling requirements as basic.
Along with decent future upgrade potential, you expect this type of strategic investment to remain relevant for decades.

Minimum SU57's size Even for a smaller 6th gen( ~35tons mtow)

GCAP is pushing 40+tons mtow, f47 looks about the same.

AMCA already is reaching 27tons mtow, near FCAS's current projection.


Plus ASN4G will need SU57 sized jet minimum to carry internally .

You're talking to me about dinosaurs, while I'm talking to you about mammals.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

You need extra large size only if you need long range. France does not have such a requirement. Both IAF and ASF are centered around endurance designs instead.

We prefer higher sorties and faster turnaround times with long on-station missions. Long range designs are not necessarily more capable but are definitely super expensive.

Long range designs are necessary if you have to cover massive ranges and run operations independently without alternative sensor support. It doesn't necessarily make them better than endurance designs.

Hello Sir
Welcome Back

 

[randomradio]

Sorry brah, no American jets for us. IAF has directly told GOI that they won't ever accept US jets with restricted access and usage permission. And Murica aint offering its crown jewels to us without compromise.

Things will change based on the security situation America's facing in the future. We need this capability after 2035, which means our economy and their security situation will be different. They can't challenge China on their own beyond 2035.

Anyway I don't think the Americans and Europeans will let us go ahead with the Su-57 deal. I won't be surprised if we are using this deal for alternate political benefits 'cause we obviously can't move forward without the Ukraine war ending first. My guess is they won't interfere with Russian oil imports or the new S-400 deal if we place the Su-57 on hold while getting other direct benefits from the US and Europe, like F414, P-75I, AMCA engine etc.

Plus if we do go for the Su-57, I doubt we will stop at 40. At least 80 + lots of drones. 40 only stopped making sense quite some time ago and the IAF said they don't want local production.

For 6th gen, we will follow same formula which we have adopted for our 5th gen, i.e., one foreign(Su-57) and one Indian(AMCA).

I revealed in the AHCA thread started by Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik that internally our AHCA program has been given a go ahead in last year itself. FCAS exploration is because IAF is tired of waiting for domestic programmes to deliver on time and don't want belated access to 6th gen tech. Let's see what we choose.

At the moment, no. ADA does not have a 6th gen program yet, they are only working on 6th gen related technologies like morphing wings and multispectral stealth. Most of it is focused towards drones right now, not a full-fledged fighter. They can't start one without AMCA achieving significant milestones first. Once they start, it will be front page news.

Although they are talking about 5th gen for the IN, I think the requirement will change to 6th gen by 2030-35 for operational entry by 2055, ie, after the AMCA's engine is upgraded to 140 kN. There are concept studies being carried out for this purpose.

So IAF: 4th/4.5th gen - 5.5th gen - 7th gen. Import 6th gen.
IN: 4.5th gen - 6th gen.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Things will change based on the security situation America's facing in the future. We need this capability after 2035, which means our economy and their security situation will be different. They can't challenge China on their own beyond 2035.

I doubt Deep State will ever change their deep insecurity and hatred towards us. Period.

Anyway I don't think the Americans and Europeans will let us go ahead with the Su-57 deal. I won't be surprised if we are using this deal for alternate political benefits 'cause we obviously can't move forward without the Ukraine war ending first. My guess is they won't interfere with Russian oil imports or the new S-400 deal if we place the Su-57 on hold while getting other direct benefits from the US and Europe, like F414, P-75I, AMCA engine etc.

If IAF wants Su-57, they will get it.

Plus if we do go for the Su-57, I doubt we will stop at 40. At least 80 + lots of drones. 40 only stopped making sense quite some time ago and the IAF said they don't want local production.

The first 40 is only going to be precursor for 140+ locally produced 2-seat Su-57MKIs. Just wait and watch

At the moment, no. ADA does not have a 6th gen program yet, they are only working on 6th gen related technologies like morphing wings and multispectral stealth. Most of it is focused towards drones right now, not a full-fledged fighter. They can't start one without AMCA achieving significant milestones first. Once they start, it will be front page news.

Behind the doors, work has begun. But yes, no official "sanctioned" program as of yet.

Although they are talking about 5th gen for the IN, I think the requirement will change to 6th gen by 2030-35 for operational entry by 2055, ie, after the AMCA's engine is upgraded to 140 kN. There are concept studies being carried out for this purpose.

So IAF: 4th/4.5th gen - 5.5th gen - 7th gen. Import 6th gen.
IN: 4.5th gen - 6th gen.

Don't think we will simply "import" any key defence system post our latest Ops. 5th gen, 6th gen, 7th gen has either to be 100% indigenous or joint-partnership with a trusted foreign OEM, where we don't need their help whatsoever to sustain and maintain our fleet during normal conditions or in any emergency situation(like a protracted war).

Any stop-gap(like 40 Su-57s) would lead towards indigenous production of 100+ Su-57MKIs. In fact, contract talks have progressed much far regarding this. This isn't just "bait and switch" to acquire F-47, but realizing our mistake in dropping out of FGFA and giving away the edge MKI gave us before 2017 and correcting it.

We have debated this umpteenth times and our view-points differ, but just wait for sometime and all of it shall become crystal clear.

 

[randomradio]

I doubt Deep State will ever change their deep insecurity and hatred towards us. Period.

We will buy Russian then.

The F-47 is on offer for export at 10% lower capabilities compared to the American version. So it will be offered to India. The strings debate, let's see what happens. We don't have aggressive designs on anyone except Pak and China. If they make exceptions for these two countries while limiting offensive operations against others, it will also be acceptable.

If IAF wants Su-57, they will get it.

Sure. But the discussions have been taking place between HAL and UAC instead, under MoD's auspices. And the IAF stepped in to junk the entire process by signaling intent for M1E instead of E that was being discussed.

The first 40 is only going to be precursor for 140+ locally produced 2-seat Su-57MKIs. Just wait and watch

Only if AMCA fails. I've been talking about the IAF suddenly buying 40 Su-57s before 2030 since 2018. But things have changed a lot for both countries since then. We could still buy 40, and 40 will open the doors for another 40 'cause of minimum MRO requirements. But it's quite impossible for the Russians to capture the Indian market when MKI is around. We can't have half our air force filled with Russian stuff again. It's problematic.

40+140+270, not a chance. Post-Putin Russia will be very different for us.

Behind the doors, work has begun. But yes, no official "sanctioned" program as of yet.

No, really, there's nothing.

CSIR-NAL have developed shape memory alloys and ADA will use that to develop morphing wings. They are yet to begin feasibility studies for this. And multispectral stealth has been in the works for drones. Then of course there's the future derivative of the AMCA engine. Without these foundational technologies, ADA is not gonna be doing anything new this decade. We are so behind that it became the reason for the IAF's push for SCAF.

The feasibility studies for wings itself will take at least 1-2 years, post which they will start working on concept designs with IAF and IN consultation. This will be followed by more feasibility studies for overall 6th gen tech and then concept fighter designs for 6th gen and then official program. So 2030+ for concept design when forces will create requirements and then 2035+ for detailed design. Then comes production of prototypes and then flight testing, which will take us quite close to 2050, for 6th gen. Don't expect first flight before 2040, ie, when SCAF is entering LRIP/IOC. If IAF decides on SCAF, then ADA will have to push towards 7th gen, which is basically 6th gen with quantum tech, metamaterials, and hybrid engines. it's silly to believe we will induct a domestic 6th gen all the way in the 2050s when others will be doing it between 2035-40.

ADA's currently about 10 years behind in this sector compared to Europe and 15 years behind US and China.

Any stop-gap(like 40 Su-57s) would lead towards indigenous production of 100+ Su-57MKIs. In fact, contract talks have progressed much far regarding this. This isn't just "bait and switch" to acquire F-47, but realizing our mistake in dropping out of FGFA and giving away the edge MKI gave us before 2017 and correcting it.

We have debated this umpteenth times and our view-points differ, but just wait for sometime and all of it shall become crystal clear.

FGFA came at those numbers initially 'cause it was supposed to replace MKI at almost 1 to 1 after 2025, and replacing all of them well before 2045. This was to ensure Russian control over IAF fleet does not cross 25-30%. Delivering them half our air force until the 2050s is politically untenable. One of the biggest reasons for MMRCA was to not depend on the Russians even back then.

We currently have 16 Russian squadrons and are set to lose 5 before 2045 and 2 more by 2055. Assuming we get 2 Su-57 squadrons by 2036 and 2 more by 2040, it will work very well as a stopgap for both a delayed AMCA and any future jet. But your proposal boosts Russian numbers to 20 by 2045 instead of lowering them to below 15. We were very uncomfortable only a few years ago with 21 squadrons.

So, no, FGFA is not coming in at such numbers.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We will buy Russian then.

The F-47 is on offer for export at 10% lower capabilities compared to the American version. So it will be offered to India. The strings debate, let's see what happens. We don't have aggressive designs on anyone except Pak and China. If they make exceptions for these two countries while limiting offensive operations against others, it will also be acceptable.



Sure. But the discussions have been taking place between HAL and UAC instead, under MoD's auspices. And the IAF stepped in to junk the entire process by signaling intent for M1E instead of E that was being discussed.



Only if AMCA fails. I've been talking about the IAF suddenly buying 40 Su-57s before 2030 since 2018. But things have changed a lot for both countries since then. We could still buy 40, and 40 will open the doors for another 40 'cause of minimum MRO requirements. But it's quite impossible for the Russians to capture the Indian market when MKI is around. We can't have half our air force filled with Russian stuff again. It's problematic.

40+140+270, not a chance. Post-Putin Russia will be very different for us.



No, really, there's nothing.

CSIR-NAL have developed shape memory alloys and ADA will use that to develop morphing wings. They are yet to begin feasibility studies for this. And multispectral stealth has been in the works for drones. Then of course there's the future derivative of the AMCA engine. Without these foundational technologies, ADA is not gonna be doing anything new this decade. We are so behind that it became the reason for the IAF's push for SCAF.

The feasibility studies for wings itself will take at least 1-2 years, post which they will start working on concept designs with IAF and IN consultation. This will be followed by more feasibility studies for overall 6th gen tech and then concept fighter designs for 6th gen and then official program. So 2030+ for concept design when forces will create requirements and then 2035+ for detailed design. Then comes production of prototypes and then flight testing, which will take us quite close to 2050, for 6th gen. Don't expect first flight before 2040, ie, when SCAF is entering LRIP/IOC. If IAF decides on SCAF, then ADA will have to push towards 7th gen, which is basically 6th gen with quantum tech, metamaterials, and hybrid engines. it's silly to believe we will induct a domestic 6th gen all the way in the 2050s when others will be doing it between 2035-40.

ADA's currently about 10 years behind in this sector compared to Europe and 15 years behind US and China.



FGFA came at those numbers initially 'cause it was supposed to replace MKI at almost 1 to 1 after 2025, and replacing all of them well before 2045. This was to ensure Russian control over IAF fleet does not cross 25-30%. Delivering them half our air force until the 2050s is politically untenable. One of the biggest reasons for MMRCA was to not depend on the Russians even back then.

We currently have 16 Russian squadrons and are set to lose 5 before 2045 and 2 more by 2055. Assuming we get 2 Su-57 squadrons by 2036 and 2 more by 2040, it will work very well as a stopgap for both a delayed AMCA and any future jet. But your proposal boosts Russian numbers to 20 by 2045 instead of lowering them to below 15. We were very uncomfortable only a few years ago with 21 squadrons.

So, no, FGFA is not coming in at such numbers.

Discussion between UAC and HAL won't happen until we were looking for domestic production of the jet. Russians have offered 'an unprecedented' deal which is very difficult not to accept. Officially IAF is looking for 40 Su-57s as a stop-gap to fill the void until AMCA is ready. But deep down, even they know that AMCA MK2 won't be ready before 2040. So, they are not opposed to GOI signing contract for local production of 2-seat Su-57MKI.

When it's all said and done, we'll have over 200 Rafales and over 140 FGFA(Su-57MKI), just like what I have saying here for years. Only thing is, both these jets, and in required numbers, are only coming after a decade late and then some.

 

[YoungWolf]

Russians have offered 'an unprecedented' deal which is very difficult not to accept.

Oh yeah?! Is that so?! A lot has been said and written over the last year or so about the Russian offer on Su-57 to India, including the "unprecedented"-ness of it. I suppose you're delivering personal assurances that the Russians will actually deliver on the agreed-upon terms and not con us like they did on Vikramaditya and PAK-FA earlier.

For the umpteenth time, I'd like to remind all the readers and you especially that the agreed upon investment and workshare were 50-50, but the latter ended up roughly 85-15. Our engineers weren't allowed near the aircraft. Our pilots weren't allowed to even fly the aircraft. And this is after investing (read: wasting/sinking) ~$300mn USD until 2018 when we finally exited the programme.

I guess you've a special affinity for Indians getting screwed over by the Russians, bcoz nothing else explains such untempered shilling for this particular platform, which has been previously rejected, unless you're a paid spokesperson of UAC/Sukhoi yourself.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Oh yeah?! Is that so?! A lot has been said and written over the last year or so about the Russian offer on Su-57 to India, including the "unprecedented"-ness of it. I suppose you're delivering personal assurances that the Russians will actually deliver on the agreed-upon terms and not con us like they did on Vikramaditya and PAK-FA earlier.

For the umpteenth time, I'd like to remind all the readers and you especially that the agreed upon investment and workshare were 50-50, but the latter ended up roughly 85-15. Our engineers weren't allowed near the aircraft. Our pilots weren't allowed to even fly the aircraft. And this is after investing (read: wasting/sinking) ~$300mn USD until 2018 when we finally exited the programme.

I guess you've a special affinity for Indians getting screwed over by the Russians, bcoz nothing else explains such untempered shilling for this particular platform, which has been previously rejected, unless you're a paid spokesperson of UAC/Sukhoi yourself.

Don't dwell too much in past dear, move ahead in life. And Su-57 is coming in huge numbers to make IAF strong again(like what MKI did between 2002-2017), whether you like it or not, it just doesn't matter

 

[Hydra]

Don't dwell too much in past dear, move ahead in life. And Su-57 is coming in huge numbers to make IAF strong again(like what MKI did between 2002-2017), whether you like it or not, it just doesn't matter

Neither SU57 or F35 is coming. Its only AMCA.
See this video full.

Its aired on yesterday. So this is the status as on yesterday.

 

[babablacksheep]

This is possible now. F-47 is operating along similar timelines, 2025-2032, so France should be able to repeat it.

It's the start and the middle bit that's gonna be slow if India's involved. Plus I don't see France going for the prototype right away, ie, 2029.

Rafale LRIP delivery was planned for 1996 but was pushed to 2001 due to budget cuts. So 5 years for LRIP and 3 more years for IOC.

AMCA is expected to manage it in 4 years between first flight and IOC too. We are skipping the TD phase.

This is possible now. F-47 is operating along similar timelines, 2025-2032, so France should be able to repeat it.

Doubt, the amount of money Americans are putting in, can't be matched even with India + France combined.
Americans are also ahead in that have have many operational 5+gen technologies, and many 6th gen techs demonstrated, France doesn't.
No 5th gen operational engine etc.
More over, Americans themselves right now *intend* for this timeline, whether they can match it is for the future to decide, you can see the delays in f35 program.

In amca too, first flight is planed 2028-29 and production in 2035-2036.
About 7 years, ASSUMING no delays.

 

[Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik]

I revealed in the AHCA thread started by Bhartiya Naagrik Sainik that internally our AHCA program has been given a go ahead in last year itself. FCAS exploration is because IAF is tired of waiting for domestic programmes to deliver on time and don't want belated access to 6th gen tech. Let's see what we choose.

Behind the doors, work has begun. But yes, no official "sanctioned" program as of yet.

> If FCAS won't modify its airframe to carry our weapons like Brahmos-NG, Rudram, etc then either new custom weapons have to be designed like JASSM, AARGM-ER, MAKO, JSM, NSM, etc or the airframe becomes DIY for us.
> Now when India is being tried to be made self reliant & catch global tech, it hurts interests of anonymous handlers from different parts of world & their puppets in India, hence they discourage & deviate us with both undefined things & obsolete things.
> But 15 yrs is lot of time for PPP with supercomputing, robotics, other automations, AI/ML, etc. This is not 1980s/90s/2000s.
> In most populous nation If ADA+HAL overbooked then either they need expansion or PPP.
> When DMRS (Defence Minister Rajnath Singh) has said to look into 6gen tech then different teams will look into engines, airframe, UCAVs, DEW, secure comms & networking, custom internal weapons, etc. Bcoz 6gen is MUMT so some day the manned jet design work will begin & it needs to be soon bcoz it can take upto IOC in 2040-45 by lazy babus as per IST (Indian Stretchable Time)
> Either Su-57 can be TD or easiest would be to infate AMCA.
> The next 15 yrs should not be like AMCA's previous 15 yrs (2010-2025).

7th gen

Many of us are there in many forums. People busy to fully decipher emerging 6gen. But IDK where characteristics of 7gen are defined
It is easy to talk in generic sense for anybody like higher speed, stealth, computing, range, etc, but difficult in terms of technical specs, do analysis, check feasibility.
If it is hypersonics, IDK how many nations would make SR-72/Darkstar like jet into fighter role in how much sustainable numbers when hypersonic glide missiles & improved ABM interceptors are being researched. So SR-72 like fighter has to defeat F-47/GCAP/FCAS/J-36/J-50, etc.
For now we can say that 7en would be 100% AI-UCAVs.
I would be very happy if someone can make a table of 6gen vs 7gen similar to which i made for my AHCA thread -

 

[babablacksheep]

You need extra large size only if you need long range. France does not have such a requirement. Both IAF and ASF are centered around endurance designs instead.

We prefer higher sorties and faster turnaround times with long on-station missions. Long range designs are not necessarily more capable but are definitely super expensive.

Long range designs are necessary if you have to cover massive ranges and run operations independently without alternative sensor support. It doesn't necessarily make them better than endurance designs.

F35's size is a major limiting factor for its future upgrades to block 5 and beyond.
They *PARTIALLY* intend to deal with it using new XA100 engine upgrade options, but size constraints remains.

And its not like US lack additional external sensor supports.

War Over Future Of F-35's Engine Explodes Publicly

Contractors Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney are now in an open squabble over what powers the F-35 going forward.

www.twz.com

So, The larger size of 6th gen jets is not just for range and endurance.









====

Payload and its variety will also be constrained, good luck trying to carry ASN4G internally in ~30 tons mtow airframe.

You're talking to me about dinosaurs, while I'm talking to you about mammals.

?

 

[randomradio]

Discussion between UAC and HAL won't happen until we were looking for domestic production of the jet.

It's already happened.

Russia, India holding technical discussions to explore possibility of joint production of Su-57: Official

India and Russia are in advanced talks for joint production of the Sukhoi Su-57E fighter jet. Discussions also cover licensed manufacturing of the Su-57 in India. An agreement is in place for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to assist in producing Superjet-100 regional jets. This collaboration aims...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

"Today, we are in the advanced stage of technical negotiations on this contract. Such contracts, given our experience, determine the trajectory of our cooperation for several decades to come," CEO of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Vadim Badekha told Russian reporters on the sidelines of the Wings India air show at Begumpet airport in Hyderabad.

It's with HAL though.

Russians have offered 'an unprecedented' deal which is very difficult not to accept.

Nah, they just wanna do MKIzation and 50% ToT, the same as before. It's a joke.

 

[randomradio]

Doubt, the amount of money Americans are putting in, can't be matched even with India + France combined.
Americans are also ahead in that have have many operational 5+gen technologies, and many 6th gen techs demonstrated, France doesn't.
No 5th gen operational engine etc.
More over, Americans themselves right now *intend* for this timeline, whether they can match it is for the future to decide, you can see the delays in f35 program.

It's not about money, it's processes.

The French are roughly on par with the Americans in 6th gen tech. Their programs are a lot slower, that's all. For example, Rafale F5 will come with 6th gen avionics. And they have already done all the necessary reasearch on airframes and engines.

F-35's R&D process failed.

In amca too, first flight is planed 2028-29 and production in 2035-2036.

About 7 years, ASSUMING no delays.

Production is expected to begin in 2032-33, once IOC is achieved. IOC squadron entry in 2035-36. LSP will begin in 2029-30. Subject to timely F414 deliveries of course.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's already happened.

Russia, India holding technical discussions to explore possibility of joint production of Su-57: Official

India and Russia are in advanced talks for joint production of the Sukhoi Su-57E fighter jet. Discussions also cover licensed manufacturing of the Su-57 in India. An agreement is in place for Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to assist in producing Superjet-100 regional jets. This collaboration aims...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

"Today, we are in the advanced stage of technical negotiations on this contract. Such contracts, given our experience, determine the trajectory of our cooperation for several decades to come," CEO of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) Vadim Badekha told Russian reporters on the sidelines of the Wings India air show at Begumpet airport in Hyderabad.

It's with HAL though.

That was actually my point. The negotiations are already "unofficially" going on because we want to domestically manufacture the 2-seat Su-57 variant in 100+ numbers. Otherwise why both HAL & UAC would waste each others time. They also have backing right from each country's respective top

Nah, they just wanna do MKIzation and 50% ToT, the same as before. It's a joke.

Actually much more than that. Read IP and export rights. But biggest thing would be full 'know how' & 'know why' of Item 177(a hybrid of AL-51F1 & AL-41F1). Just wait for sometime and more details will come out in due time.

 

[randomradio]

For now we can say that 7en would be 100% AI-UCAVs.
I would be very happy if someone can make a table of 6gen vs 7gen similar to which i made for my AHCA thread -

6th gen: Broadband, multi-spectral stealth, morphing wings, photonics, MUMT, DEW + core 5th gen features.
7th gen: Hypersonic, metamaterials, quantum tech + core 6th gen features.

Manned or unmanned can be a design choice. Mig-41 will be a 7th gen, introduced by 2035, and will be manned in the beginning. Detailed design is complete and rumors of first flight before 2030. It was restarted after the F-47 program was green-lit.

The Russians are deliberately calling it 6th gen in order to steal the designation first, which will relegate the F-47, GCAP, J-50 etc to 5th gen status due to lack of high speed, high altitude performance. This is meant to create false-equivalence between PAK FA and F-47. Maybe the idea is to push the new jets down to 5.5th gen status like the Rafale and Typhoon were.

Previously too, the Russians were the first to claim the F-22 was 5th gen, which pushed the Rafale and Typhoon down to 4th gen, giving it a false equivalence with Su-27/30 even though these two jets were clearly a generation ahead. The Americans played along. So let's see if they will do the same this time.