India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .

Seeker of a missiles definitely can help, especially modern and upcoming ones.
Though still, the higher the radar track accuracy the tighter/narrower the "handover basket" (uncertainty volume at seeker activation), the more loose this handover basket is the less chance of PK(probability kill) especially at longer ranges, where missile's kinematics are mostly exhausted especially against fast agile independent targets like fighter jets, it will not be a high confidence intercept also as modern fighter jets have rwr,MAWS etc for early warning .


Now all this is theory.

Now as for reality.
** right now there is no missile that has kinematics and seeker performance to hit a fighter jet(non stealth) at 300+km(or even150+ km reliably) using loose radar track of 400-500m accuracy**
Admittedly what I put out is not a hypothetical situation. We're already seeing 300 kms AAM though that'd be for slow moving non manoeuvrable targets .

How long do you think it'd be before you see Hypersonic AAMs with a range of 400 kms precisely to take out fast moving highly manoeuvrable targets ?

That's why the uhf/vhf component of russian nebo-m is used for cueing other radars, not For fire control, unlike the chinese radar which has Cross Dipole antenna, That indicates the radar works using circular polarization which gives more accuracy and more performance in high clutter enviornment( good snr).

The longest range kill of a fighter jet is ~217km against a older *ingressing* Ukraine su-27 by a russian R-37m fired by Russian su-35 guided by ground based radars, and from the reports the Ukrainian fighter didn't react/try to evade the incoming missilse most likely due to not having rwr or MAWS( which modern fighters do), and also large rcs of Ukrainian su27( su-35 has ram treatment)
Secondly the idea behind the entire exercise was to demonstrate the range of these radars to detect stealth. The further one detects these stealth FAs the faster the response time for FAs on the ground to take off & intercept them before they cause harm .

Hence detection at 300 kms > 200 kms . If that's not the case today , I don't think we'd have to wait 2 decades to see such technology being realised.
Second, by using the calculation, the tracking(loose) range of nebo-m's uhf/vhf component is ~150-200km against a stealth target, not 300km.

In future within 2 decades we will probably have missiles( also radars & radar grids with longer range and more accuracy at the same time) that can hit ingressing fighter jets( non-stealth) at ~400km away, but hitting a *stealth jet* at that range within 2 decades of development is highly unlikely.
I don't think it'd take 2-3 decades the way technology is progressing. After all countries have mastered Hypersonics plus the 6th Gen FA like the J-36 appears to be a 50 ton behemoth.

The idea would be to miniaturize Hypersonic AAMs to fit into the IWB . Easier said than done I know given the technological complexities involved but whosoever achieves this will have a bleeding edge over their opponents in the next war. And if a lay person like myself can conceive of it I'm sure people making a living out of this are already working on it.

Similarly we're likely to see Hypersonic SAMs . In fact I just checked the speed at which the 40N6 SAM of the S-400 missile system travels. AI reports it to be in the high supersonic speeds ~ Mach 3.5 . We're likely to see Hypersonic SAMs much before we see Hypersonic AAMs.
 
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Admittedly what I put out is not a hypothetical situation. We're already seeing 300 kms AAM though that'd be for slow moving non manoeuvrable targets .
The talk was about being able to target a *stealth* fighter jet from minimum 400km within 2 decades.



How long do you think it'd be before you see Hypersonic AAMs with a range of 400 kms precisely to take out fast moving highly manoeuvrable targets ?
10-15 years minimum to become
*operationally* viable in enough numbers to make *significant* difference on the battlefield at that range.


Like,we are working on AD-AH to intercept incoming (ingressing targets) hypersonic missiles


Though missiles like r-37m are already hypersonic in many phases of their flight, and have scored a 200+km range kill against Ukrainian su-27 [though its also a lucky case and not a typical one, as said before Ukrainian su27 didn't react or tried any evasive maneuvers indicating no rwr or maws, plus large rcs of su27(7-10m2), missile basically got a lucky hit on a uninformed & unprepared target ], but mostly its for tankers, awacs etc and to get a mission kill ( forcing the opponent fighters to retreat & go on defensive)



Secondly the idea behind the entire exercise was to demonstrate the range of these radars ti detect stealth. The further one detects these stealth FAs the better the response time for FAs on the ground to take off & intercept them before they cause harm . Hence 300 kms > 200 kms
From my perceptive it was about the possibility of being able to target using ground based air-defence, the *Stealth* fighter jets at minimum 400km in the near future( within 2 decades), which is highly unlikely.


I don't think it'd take 2-3 decades the way technology is progressing.
I stand by assesment that emergence of the ability to target *stealth* fighter jets at a minimum of 400km, using SAM systems within 2 decades is highly unlikely.




After all countries have mastered Hypersonics
Its a cold-war era tech, not completely mature by then, but was extensively researched way beyond just concept stage during cold war.

**The Soviets experimented with ramjet and scramjet designs as early as the 1950s. Reports suggest that in the early 1990s—immediately following the end of the Cold War—they conducted tests with experimental scramjet vehicles launched from ground-to-air missiles, achieving speeds near Mach 8, which built upon prior secret research.


.
Some air to air missiles & surface air missiles are/were already hypersonic in different phases of their flight.
 
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The talk was about being able to target a *stealth* fighter jet from minimum 400km within 2 decades.
That 2 decades is your addition. This is how the discussion kicked off from my end.

Post in thread 'India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .' India vs China - War Gaming Scenarios : Related News , Updates , Discussions & Analysis .

10-15 years minimum to become
*operationally* viable in enough numbers to make *significant* difference on the battlefield at that range.
Let's see.
Like,we are working on AD-AH to intercept incoming (ingressing targets) hypersonic missiles


Though missiles like r-37m are already hypersonic in many phases of their flight, and have scored a 200+km range kill against Ukrainian su-27 [though its also a lucky case and not a typical one, as said before Ukrainian su27 didn't react or tried any evasive maneuvers indicating no rwr or maws, plus large rcs of su27(7-10m2), missile basically got a lucky hit on a uninformed & unprepared target ], but mostly its for tankers, awacs etc and to get a mission kill ( forcing the opponent fighters to retreat & go on defensive)

From my perceptive it was about the possibility of being able to target using ground based air-defence, the *Stealth* fighter jets at minimum 400km in the near future( within 2 decades), which is highly unlikely.
By which time you'd have Hypersonic LR SAMs in operation. You already have LR SAMs with high supersonic speeds in operation today & admittedly it's easier to develop Hypersonic LR SAMs than it is to develop Hypersonic LR AAMs.
I stand by assesment that emergence of the ability to target *stealth* fighter jets at a minimum of 400km, using SAM systems within 2 decades is highly unlikely.
Let's agree to disagree.
Its a cold-war era tech, not completely mature by then, but was extensively researched way beyond just concept stage during cold war.

**The Soviets experimented with ramjet and scramjet designs as early as the 1950s. Reports suggest that in the early 1990s—immediately following the end of the Cold War—they conducted tests with experimental scramjet vehicles launched from ground-to-air missiles, achieving speeds near Mach 8, which built upon prior secret research.


.
Some air to air missiles & surface air missiles are/were already hypersonic in different phases of their flight.
 
Stealth maybe a blanket term but it consists of many sub-divisons. Fighters that have clean or loaded configuration below 0dBsm or 1m2 and upto -10dBsm or 0.1m2 are classified as RO or Reduced Observable. Rafale is perfect example of this type of fighter. Fighters with clean/combat-loaded RCS between -20dBsm to -10dBsm(0.01m2-0.1m2) are classified as LO. This included earlier prototypes of J-20 and Su-57. Fighters below this threshold, i.e., -20dBsm are classified as VLO. This includes all American stealth fighters and bombers(F-117, B-2, F-22 & F-35). They have RCS between -30dBsm to -40dBsm (0.001m2 to 0.0001m2) from their optimal aspects(frontal +-30° azimuth).

However, now the next generation stealth fighters/bombers are targeting multi-band, multi-aspect broadband stealth upto -70dBsm, i.e., RCS of a mosquito(F-47, FCAS, GCAP, B-21, J-36, J-50 et al)! India is not oblivious to this development. All our current and future radars, as part of our "anti-stealth radar grid," are designed to track such super low RCS targets from over 300-500kms. Of course, people won't believe it but our scientists, GOI & IAF believe in this. This is what matters most.
 
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Chinese Underwater sensor found in Indonesia

Chinese-moored-underwater-sensor-indonesia-1.jpg

Chinese-moored-underwater-sensor-indonesia-2.jpg

Chinese-moored-underwater-sensor-2016.jpg

AI Summary:

• Identified as a 'Deep-Sea Real-Time Transmission Mooring System' developed by China Shipbuilding Industry Corporation and tested as early as 2016.

• This sophisticated sensor system, capable of operating in depths of 200 to 4,000 meters, includes multiple Acoustic Doppler Current Profilers (ADCP) and Conductivity, Temperature, Depth (CTD) sensors, and can remain operational for up to 12 months, transmitting data via release buoys.

• The sensor is moored (tethered) rather than fully seabed-fixed, which is less common and suggests flexibility in deployment.

• It resembles a hybrid between a buoy and a seabed sensor, possibly allowing easier maintenance or repositioning.
 
@_Anonymous_
Post our last year's skirmish when I revealed about Chinese blatant sat-nav help to Pak against our assets, I said that during the next war, we would completely need to choke/block their radar based Sats and spoof their IR/EO based ones. Looks like we are just doing that now, where total jamming of GNSS is being practised.
Any write up ?
 
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China is as Communist as it gets. The Americans wanted to engineer a shift to democracy. They wanted a hedge against SU. They would've also liked to play Russia and China against each other.

Perhaps a social revolution was not practical post the Tiananmen Square incident. So trade and commerce became the preferred tool.

In the 90s, Bill Clinton et all were all taken in by Chinese guile. Unfortunately for the Americans, they ended up creating a peer rival feeding off their own tech and economy.
The CCP was created by Jews. Infact a guy named Israel Epstein was one of the biggest supporter of the Chinese Communist Party and gave it key direction in its initial years.
The Americans aren't as stupid or innocent as you seem to think. They are all in on it.
 
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The CCP was created by Jews. Infact a guy named Israel Epstein was one of the biggest supporter of the Chinese Communist Party and gave it key direction in its initial years.
The Americans aren't as stupid or innocent as you seem to think. They are all in on it.

The Americans did what they did because they wanted to wean China away from Russia/SU in the backdrop of the Cold War. They'd hoped that the mainland would someday go the way of the rebel
Taiwanese.

Bush Sr pivoted to trade and commerce when Nixon's strategic play didn't work. Heck, CCP even withstood the fall of the SU. In the years that followed, Clinton gave the Chinese unprecedented market access and tech. But he got too little in return.
 
China is as Communist as it gets.
It isn't communist at all . At least as it exists today. That's just the C&C structure . They can't rid themselves of it as it'd mean bringing down the entire edifice.
The Americans wanted to engineer a shift to democracy.
A lot is made out of this. The real reason the US & the west continued to invest in China to mfg there was corporate greed. All these reasons provided are mostly by wooly headed liberals who're more useful idiots & ex administration officials as a veneer to couch their venality.

These guys knew exactly what was going on & what the costs would be . But corporates were minting money , share markets were having a bull run & politicians were getting their cut.

Check out that old hag Nancy Pelosi's net worth. She's made her entire fortune thru the stock market. You think she didn't get insider information ? And do you think she's the only one ?

Although her case has been extensively documented yet she hasn't faced any action whatsoever !


They wanted a hedge against SU.

They would've also liked to play Russia and China against each other.
They didn't have to play one against the other. Russia & China had a falling out in the 1960s the roots of which go back to the fall of stalin , the elevation of Kruschev & the condemnation of Stalinism by the Soviet Communist party .

That gravely endangered Mao's position as the Supreme Leader in the CCP . He saw the danger & started distancing China from the USSR. One thing led to another & they fought a border war more a skirmish known as the Ussuri River Incident in late 1960s .

The world including the US were aware of these developments but couldn't do much as China was caught up in internal turmoil courtesy Mao's policies initially reflected in The 5 Pests Campaign which led to The Great Leap Forward & the massive death tolls both took & in order to cover up for these monumental mistakes he instigated The Cultural Revolution in the mid 1960s.

Eventually the US under Jewboy Kissinger did manage to reach out with our western neighbour playing the pimp like they're now.
Perhaps a social revolution was not practical post the Tiananmen Square incident .

Coz Deng came down hard else the west was very interested in seeing China collapse like communism in Europe or at the very least see a kind of a civil war.
So trade and commerce became the preferred tool.
Answered this above.
In the 90s, Bill Clinton et all were all taken in by Chinese guile.
They weren't . Although at that point in time they didn't foresee China would become the threat it would in the future. Back then the west was in a state of hubris especially the US as they won the Cold War & what's more the Russian Federation was on the verge of becoming a US client state .
Unfortunately for the Americans, they ended up creating a peer rival feeding off their own tech and economy.
George W Bush & his administration saw the danger & were in the process of correcting course ( See the Hainan Island Incident ) when 9/11 happened & US attention was diverted for a good decade if not more only to revert with the weak Pivot by Obummer late in his first term more as a token gesture than anything.

By that time China was a different beast altogether.

The CCP was created by Jews.
That's an urban legend. Although per capita the Jews were disproportionately represented in the Communist movement worldwide , they were never top dogs with the exception of Trotsky.

Even he failed in the struggle for leadership against Stalin fleeing Russia in exile only to be assassinated in Mexico by Stalin's agents.

Infact a guy named Israel Epstein was one of the biggest supporter of the Chinese Communist Party
Epstein was a Polish Jew. He certainly wasn't in a leadership or even influential position within the CCP heirarchy in China.
and gave it key direction in its initial years.
The Americans aren't as stupid or innocent as you seem to think. They are all in on it.
Look in order to understand why Communism made it big you need to look the map of the world pre WW-1 & post WW-2. The only independent nations the world over existed in the Americas & Europe.

All of Asia & Africa were enslaved with the exception of Thailand & Japan in the former & Ethiopia in the latter. Communist takeover of the Russian Empire & their enthusiasm to propagate their cause thru the Comintern saw the latter liaising with freedom fighters from across the world fighting colonialism .

It began with Asia specifically China & spread. These freedom fighters desperately sought a foreign backer as they couldn't take on the might of the European colonisers on their own . The Bolsheviks in Russia in turn wanted to export their Bolshevik Revolution across the world beginning with these colonies.

It was a match made in heaven. That's how Bolshevism came to be espoused by these anti colonials across the world. If these anti colonial freedom fighters had another option you wouldn't see Communism get the kind of traction it did.

During the Vietnam war Nehru advised the Eisenhower & later the Kennedy administration to treat the Vietnam problem as an Independence struggle rather than a war against Communism. They didn't understand the problem for the life of them & eventually all the actors there paid a heavy price.
 
It isn't communist at all . At least as it exists today. That's just the C&C structure . They can't rid themselves of it as it'd mean bringing down the entire edifice.
Over time, China has evolved a hybrid political system based on geopolitical and economic considerations. But beyond one party rule, state surveillance (social credits et all) is all pervasive and not even icons like Jack Ma are spared for refusing to fall in line.

Chinese industry functions as an arm of the state, whether it is industrial espionage, acquisition of foriegn companies, domain specialization, etc. Once China achieves its goal of becoming self-sufficient in food and energy, it will turn into a fortress economy and won't care about running influence ops in foriegn media or human rights, etc.
A lot is made out of this. The real reason the US & the west continued to invest in China to mfg there was corporate greed. All these reasons provided are mostly by wooly headed liberals who're more useful idiots & ex administration officials as a veneer to couch their venality.
Trade and commerce didn't really pick up between the two sides until the 1990s aka globalization. Prior to that, the US was mainly interested in countering Soviet influence in East Asia. They also wanted China to stop supporting the Viet Cong.

It was Clinton who presided over the offshoring of US mfg units to China in the 1990s. Much like India became the go-to for BPO/ITES offshoring during the Bush admin in the 2000s.

The world including the US were aware of these developments but couldn't do much as China was caught up in internal turmoil courtesy Mao's policies initially reflected in The 5 Pests Campaign which led to The Great Leap Forward & the massive death tolls both took & in order to cover up for these monumental mistakes he instigated The Cultural Revolution in the mid 1960s.
China would've been ideal for US U-2 flights over the SU, since it shared a land border with the latter. The CCP refused to play ball and the US pivoted to Taiwan. Until the disintegration of the USSR in the 1990s, DC tried to use the Chinese as a counterweight to Moscow in East Asia - a ring of pearls around the periphery of its Cold War rival.

The US officially professed the One China principle but maintained ambiguity about its relations with Taiwan throughout the 80s because of the latter's usefulness as a military outpost. Once China liberalized, trade and business took center stage. Taiwan became indispensable because of its growing tech base and talent.
 
The Americans did what they did because they wanted to wean China away from Russia/SU in the backdrop of the Cold War. They'd hoped that the mainland would someday go the way of the rebel
Taiwanese.

Bush Sr pivoted to trade and commerce when Nixon's strategic play didn't work. Heck, CCP even withstood the fall of the SU. In the years that followed, Clinton gave the Chinese unprecedented market access and tech. But he got too little in return.
They already had market access since the 80's. Ofcourse they withstood the fall of the Soviet Union they collaborated on it. Why do you think Xinjiang has such problem of Islamic extremism? Where do you think they were training the mujahideen and pumping up their numbers from in Afghanistan?
 
They already had market access since the 80's. Ofcourse they withstood the fall of the Soviet Union they collaborated on it. Why do you think Xinjiang has such problem of Islamic extremism? Where do you think they were training the mujahideen and pumping up their numbers from in Afghanistan?

The Chinese may have had their differences with the SU. But I don't believe they were involved in the collapse of a fellow communist country the CCP regarded as a peer (much like our own CPI-M party)

The SU had structural problems of its own and 'liberal' leaders like Gorbachev didn't help matters. It is conceivable that China collaborated with the US-Pak combine to defeat the SU in Afghanistan though.
 
The Chinese may have had their differences with the SU. But I don't believe they were involved in the collapse of a fellow communist country the CCP regarded as a peer (much like our own CPI-M party)

The SU had structural problems of its own and 'liberal' leaders like Gorbachev didn't help matters. It is conceivable that China collaborated with the US-Pak combine to defeat the SU in Afghanistan though.
Please read on the 1969 Sino Soviet split. Connect the dots, there's more to it than meets the eye
 
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Those plans have been in the making since the past few years . I thought a decision was taken given your grand announcement.

Meanwhile I found this piece of news intriguing 👇

The Pralay short-range ballistic missile has reached final testing stages and should be operational shortly, Kamat confirmed.

Was under the impression Pralay was already certified for induction.

He noted that existing strategic missile platforms could be converted for tactical use at medium and longer ranges, providing flexibility in operational deployment.

This is something I've been advocating since long & is essentially low hanging fruit that can easily be accomplished . If they're still mulling over it which is change & a good one to say the least , when exactly are they going to get down to doing this ?
 
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