Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

Rather than reinvent the wheel, we should look to build on the foundation laid via the LCA-N mk1 program and design work already done for AMCA.

Proven tailless delta wing with blended levcons from LCA-N Mk1 + DSI intakes from the AMCA + perhaps a reprofiled nose section for better carrier TO/L visibility + AMCA rear fuselage modified with flat 2D TVC nozzles = 5.5G naval combat aircraft.

Reuse and iterate parts across programs to compress development timeframes.
 
Rather than reinvent the wheel, we should look to build on the foundation laid via the LCA-N mk1 program and design work already done for AMCA.

Proven tailless delta wing with blended levcons from LCA-N Mk1 + DSI intakes from the AMCA + perhaps a reprofiled nose section for better carrier TO/L visibility + AMCA rear fuselage modified with flat 2D TVC nozzles = 5.5G naval combat aircraft.

Reuse and iterate parts across programs to compress development timeframes.
You can reuse knowledge gained from these programs, get inspirations from previous designs


But you can't reuse parts across programs like that.
 
The IN must've been under pressure to show some continuity between the cancelled LCA-N Mk1 and TEDBF programs. They had to protect their image of being the most pro-indigenization service.


The LCA-N Mk2 concept was a thoroughly revised multi role carrier based fighter with a front end that was heavily inspired by the Rafale. Only flaw: single engine.

View attachment 49759

Imo, it'd have made for a smoother transition to a 5G jet vs the 25t twin engine jet we now have. Perhaps, it could have been relegated to the role of carrier-based LIFT later on. And that's where we lost the plot.

More complexity when you barely have a functioning airwing (with MiG-29K being a complete dud) can never be a good thing.

Well, the IAF did have a requirement for a MRFA and HAL would've been well within its rights to propose a solution.
The justification for the same has to come from the IAF. If the latter puts its foot down there's little anyone including the GoI / MoD can do about it . After all they're both - the end users & domain experts.

IAF seems to have taken the position they can deal with the J-20 with the Rafales . At least that's what it looks like from here.

Which brings me to the second point - is there a projected time frame in which the IAF sees a conflict with China & if so how do they map this conflict vis a vis the former's role in it ?

Here's where things get murky. There's nothing to suggest the IAF actually foresees a conflict with China & if it does , it is going to be a major one as opposed to a border war where the IA will be facing the brunt with the IAF relegated to a supporting role.

In fact that's pretty much how Gen Rawat saw the role of the IAF which raised the hackles at Vayu Bhavan.

Now for the GoI to get an alternative PoV whom does it turn to ? I'm afraid we haven't quite figured out this dilemma with the Chinese.

I've written before how the CSG - China Study Group was intended to be that independent voice which was insulated from the MEA till the latter weaseled it's way in & now it's become an echo chamber .

Alternatively neither does the armed forces have their own agency or agenda for an independent assessment. They get their inputs from the MEA & PMO.

You can see the odd dissenting voice from the establishment in the form of ex senior personnel objecting to the current security doctrine vis a vis China but these are pretty much isolated voices. It's as if everyone is scared of calling the emperor has no clothes on .

I've linked such articles from before & after the Galwan crisis by AM Arjun Subramaniam , Lt Gen Hooda , AM Chopra of CAPS who discreetly refers to such a situation etc in the Indo China War Gaming Thread.


Besides, the scale vs cost advantages would've been obvious to even the IAF. Although, HAL/ADA program management credentials were never reassuring and both services decided to hedge against dev risk by opting for a proven solution.
The window for the Rafales closed in 2022. Galwan was the perfect opportunity for the GoI to pursue the Rafales assuming the government was nervous about Pappu's allegations of corruption.

That one incident & COVID was enough to over ride all such objections. Why didn't the GoI do so only to pick up the case now is a mystery !

My own take is this government is far too fiscally conservative to have taken such a decision then especially since the entire country along with the world was in lockdown mode with little indication as to when would normal life resume & with it the economy.

Result - the MMRCA 2.0 / MRFA became the casualty. In any case this government is also not serious about defence . It's priority is economy economy economy & infrastructure infrastructure infrastructure with dollops of fiscal conservatism.

Imo, TEDBFs only USP is/was that it was designed for STOBAR ops, not a compromise solution like Rafale-m (clipped wing tips, etc).
TEDBFs can take off from both - STOBAR & CATOBAR . I recall seeing an interview with the Project in charge at ADA stating the same.
But the IN believes the trade-off is acceptable.

In terms of avionics and sensors, TEDBF would've had virtually the same fit as AMCA. Or so it was said. But the IN still chose to buy more Rafale.
Frankly I don't see the connection. There's no N-AMCA , so what's the point ?

I've also written in the past the AMCA Mk-1 could become the MRFA + which negates the need for the ORCA or the Rafale . Till such time the LCA Mk-2 could serve as adequate backup.

This is a post 2022 reading of the situation when there was no sign of the Rafale & in any case IMO it wouldn't have made sense to induct the Rafale in the 2030s when we would have our own indigenous FA programs fructifying.
We must also remember that the Vikrant class CVS can only carry 24-30 ac at a time.
The INS Vikramaditya shouldn't be in service beyond 2035. It's already huffing & puffing & barely makes it a few dozen nautical miles away from the coastline .

The IAC-2 - the analogue & companion to INS Vikrant should've been launched by now . But you won't see that happening any time soon . Why ? Coz the IN is busy blowing up its budget on 57 Rafale M . Result - you're likely to see the Vikramaditya in service well into the 2040s.

Assuming we do see the analogue to INS Vikrant launched sometime later this decade , we won't be seeing the IAC -3 before we commission the IAC -2. When's that going to be is anyone's guess ? !

In this respect we're following little britain.


After all we've inherited her institutions & made it worse by making it our own. It's called the Indian touch . Not that theirs is in a better shape as of now.


The EMALS-equipped, CATOBARs are atleast 10-15 years in the future.
What EMALS & INS Vishal are you referring to when the IAC 2 hasn't been sanctioned ? Besides the US is facing unresolved issues with their EMALS. Plenty of time before it becomes a mature technology. Do you think we're going to get it in tip top condition from the very start ?
 
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You can reuse knowledge gained from these programs, get inspirations from previous designs


But you can't reuse parts across programs like that
Maybe not. But it can speed up the basic concept design and even prototyping. Better than starting from scratch, imo.

Further iterations can be made with user input.
 
The justification for the same has to come from the IAF. If the latter puts its foot down there's little anyone including the GoI / MoD can do about it . After all they're both - the end users & domain experts.
The final call is always in the hands of the user. But sending unsolicited offers to a potential (in HAL's case 'only' major) customer is par for the course in virtually any industry.

Which brings me to the second point - is there a projected time frame in which the IAF sees a conflict with China & if so how do they map this conflict vis a vis the former's role in it ?
Unlike the USAF or its affiliates like RAND, the IAF maintains a studied silence about China's military advancements. Former ACMs like Dhanoa have even played down the threat from its growing J-20 fleet.

What makes them so smug? I do not know.

My own take is this government is far too fiscally conservative to have taken such a decision then especially since the entire country along with the world was in lockdown mode with little indication as to when would normal life resume & with it the economy.
I think it's a cultural phenomenon. We tend to take our Ahimsa Parmo Dharma ethos too seriously.

No wonder, our planners are always in reactive mode despite living in such a nasty neighborhood.

I don't think we've produced one military strategist of the stature of Alfred Mahan, etc. No wonder we look to historical figures like Chanakya for inspiration even today.


TEDBFs can take off from both - STOBAR & CATOBAR . I recall seeing an interview with the Project in charge at ADA stating the same.
The initial version unde development is STOBAR only. The CATOBAR varaint will follow later.

Frankly I don't see the connection. There's no N-AMCA , so what's the point ?
I'm suggesting that TEDBF was billed as a 5G system couched in a 4.5G airframe (minus 5G if you please) to reduce dev risk.

With the Rafale-m on the way, the IN likely doesn't see the need for it - even with 5G avionics and sensors. They aren't playing halfway house.

The INS Vikramaditya shouldn't be in service beyond 2035. It's already huffing & puffing & barely makes it a few dozen nautical miles away from the coastline
Vikaramditya has proved to be every bit the 'white elephant' some naval commentators had warned about prior to her induction in ~2013.

The hull may be good enough but her engine troubles have likely not been fully resolved to this day. If the shrewd Russians hadn't tied it to the Chakra-2 lease, we probably wouldn't have bought her.

Perhaps she can be repurposed as a helo carrier once her complement of MiG-29Ks has all been written off.
 
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The hull may be good enough but her engine troubles have likely not been fully resolved to this day. If the shrewd Russians hadn't tied it to the Chakra-2 lease, we probably wouldn't have bought her.
While it's of no use crying over spilled milk, I think the IN planners missed a trick while refurbishing the ship. They should've gone for a COGAG system à la the then under development Vikrant, opting for DT-59 or whichever the most powerful gas turbine the Russians n Ukrainians had for sale as the US won't allow the use of LM2500 for Vikram.

Perhaps she can be repurposed as a helo carrier once her complement of MiG-29Ks has all been written off.
By then the hull would already be at least 50 years old, if not older. You can only push such an old lady for so long before it stops making financial sense.
 
While it's of no use crying over spilled milk, I think the IN planners missed a trick while refurbishing the ship. They should've gone for a COGAG system à la the then under development Vikrant, opting for DT-59 or whichever the most powerful gas turbine the Russians n Ukrainians had for sale as the US won't allow the use of LM2500 for Vikram.
The Chinese Liaoning reportedly uses a similar boiler based propulsion system as Vikram. But they were wise enough to buy the design blueprints/ToT from Ukraine which probably helped a lot. The ship can atleast sail around Taiwan on a regular basis.

We seem to be completely reliant on the Russian oem. With Kuznetsov out of service, wonder how they could even maintain their MRO expertise for this type of powerplant.
 
The Chinese Liaoning reportedly uses a similar boiler based propulsion system as Vikram. But they were wise enough to buy the design blueprints/ToT from Ukraine which probably helped a lot. The ship can atleast sail around Taiwan on a regular basis.

We seem to be completely reliant on the Russian oem. With Kuznetsov out of service, wonder how they could even maintain their MRO expertise for this type of powerplant.
Yeah, but since we don't have catapults onboard Vikram like the old Vikrant, steam turbine based propulsion isn't worth the hassle IMO. A switch to COGAG would've given it longer legs and made it easier to maintain, saving precious dough on OpEx of that old mammoth. Less reliance on the Russians too (We've got DT-59 powered ships running just fine).
 
With the AMCA Mk-1 why do you need the ORCA ? Add external pylons & turn it to "beast mode ." Wonder how long will people keep flogging a dead horse ?

ORCA would've made sense had there been no LCA Mk-2 or / and AMCA Mk-1 . With both these & Rafale coming which is already a case of overkill where's the scope for an ORCA ?

I mean isn't one professional story teller bad enough ? Why do we want to push unintentional satire masquerading as facts on this forum ?
 
With the AMCA Mk-1 why do you need the ORCA ? Add external pylons & turn it to "beast mode ." Wonder how long will people keep flogging a dead horse ?

ORCA would've made sense had there been no LCA Mk-2 or / and AMCA Mk-1 . With both these & Rafale coming which is already a case of overkill where's the scope for an ORCA ?

I mean isn't one professional story teller bad enough ? Why do we want to push unintentional satire masquerading as facts on this forum ?
Had my doubts..


Then comes another unbelievable part..3 years for TEDBF roll out.. for all we know Mk2 itself can be delayed for a couple of years ..

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Basically TEDBF will allow what France restrict us in Rafale ..From picdels F5 info, seems like F5 comes with an ecosystem.. We can have our own ecosystem with TEDBF.

Amca has IWB pylon restrictions.
I think stealth aircraft on beast mode will lose to 4.5 gen. Stealth should be coming in with other compromises.. it cannot fight with its main advantage taken away

Mk2 still isn't perfect design yet , from what we read Vstol post , canard - wing position is not best yet.

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Mirage 2000 - Tejas benchmark
Rafale - TEDBF benchmark

400 Tejas Mk1A + Mk2
400 Rafale + TEDBF
200 Su 30 UPG
200 Amca ... will be great.

To me half.baked Amca Mk1 will be better than to import 40 + stopgap stealth fighter.
It ll atleast hasten the Mk2 development.
On the contrary if we import , we Mki ze that and help in development of foreign stealth fighter.
 
Had my doubts..


Then comes another unbelievable part..3 years for TEDBF roll out.. for all we know Mk2 itself can be delayed for a couple of years ..

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Basically TEDBF will allow what France restrict us in Rafale ..From picdels F5 info, seems like F5 comes with an ecosystem.. We can have our own ecosystem with TEDBF.

Amca has IWB pylon restrictions.
I think stealth aircraft on beast mode will lose to 4.5 gen. Stealth should be coming in with other compromises.. it cannot fight with its main advantage taken away

Mk2 still isn't perfect design yet , from what we read Vstol post , canard - wing position is not best yet.

-----

Mirage 2000 - Tejas benchmark
Rafale - TEDBF benchmark

400 Tejas Mk1A + Mk2
400 Rafale + TEDBF
200 Su 30 UPG
200 Amca ... will be great.

To me half.baked Amca Mk1 will be better than to import 40 + stopgap stealth fighter.
It ll atleast hasten the Mk2 development.
On the contrary if we import , we Mki ze that and help in development of foreign stealth fighter.

Frqnkly, it is strange that ADA has dropped the initial design (chined radome and angled belly section forward of the intake) for a more conventional Rafale lookalike layout for TEDBF, retaining only the DSI intakes.

For an organization that has just designed AMCA, they seem to be too risk averse.

With immediate requirements met by 26 + 26 Rafale-M, I'd say they have the luxury of trying out new modifications, leveraging the design experience of the N-LCA mk1.

For AF LCA mk2 canards, modeling tests were conducted in France to validate effectiveness, iirc. Are there some problems still?
 
I have my doubts about any TEDBEF revival. considering the J35 it becomes quite useless for us. the rafale is good enough for us to use on our carriers if we are going to have non 5th gen jets.
Also remember than ADA freezing the design doesnt mean anything is going to happen. Doubt it will ever go past paper drawings simply because the rafale M satisfies this need.

We need a naval design based on the AMCA airframe. Its a MWF so it has a combat weight of 18tonnes(MTOW is 25 but combat is a lot lower for stealth). Which means even with the Ge 414 it maintains a TWR of 1.1. Even navalizing it would get to to 14 tonnes empty which means 20 tonnes for combat at a approx 1200kms range or even 18 tonnes with a 700-800 kms range. Even the GE414 version provides enough thrust for ski jump let alone the 120KN per engine version which will take it with ease.

ofc thrust is not the only thing that matters and wing geometry and lift matter just as much if not more but the power is there to make it happen if needed.
 
Frqnkly, it is strange that ADA has dropped the initial design (chined radome and angled belly section forward of the intake) for a more conventional Rafale lookalike layout for TEDBF, retaining only the DSI intakes.

For an organization that has just designed AMCA, they seem to be too risk averse.

With immediate requirements met by 26 + 26 Rafale-M, I'd say they have the luxury of trying out new modifications, leveraging the design experience of the N-LCA mk1.

For AF LCA mk2 canards, modeling tests were conducted in France to validate effectiveness, iirc. Are there some problems still?

I think change is nose is due to carrier landing and take off calculations @Gautam i forgot about the discussions that happend when nose design changes from Amca type to Rafale type .

And LCA mk 2 canard placement is suboptimal it seems compared to classical ccc in Rafale .
Which @vstol Jockey explained long time ago.

Are we buying 26 + 26 Rafale M ?
 
I have my doubts about any TEDBEF revival. considering the J35 it becomes quite useless for us. the rafale is good enough for us to use on our carriers if we are going to have non 5th gen jets.
Also remember than ADA freezing the design doesnt mean anything is going to happen. Doubt it will ever go past paper drawings simply because the rafale M satisfies this need.

We need a naval design based on the AMCA airframe. Its a MWF so it has a combat weight of 18tonnes(MTOW is 25 but combat is a lot lower for stealth). Which means even with the Ge 414 it maintains a TWR of 1.1. Even navalizing it would get to to 14 tonnes empty which means 20 tonnes for combat at a approx 1200kms range or even 18 tonnes with a 700-800 kms range. Even the GE414 version provides enough thrust for ski jump let alone the 120KN per engine version which will take it with ease.

ofc thrust is not the only thing that matters and wing geometry and lift matter just as much if not more but the power is there to make it happen if needed.

If we thought Tejas is unnecessary because Mirage satisfied our need, we won't be having Tejas now.

For our level of maturity, TEDBF can become successful lot easier than Naval Amca .

Before the stealth naval Air craft, we need to get catobar or emal otherwise Stobar - catobar - emal etc etc will bite us later..

TEDBF will be of Stobar design to fit in current carriers. Naval AmCA won't be fitting in I guess.