PAK-FA / Sukhoi Su-57 - Updates and Discussions

[screambowl]

12 is pointless. You can't do anything with such a small number.

You need 12 just to train pilots and create tactics.

12 is a good number to start and buy time in the coming years , and can be imported in fly off condition. Russians can produce 12 per year. MKIzed one can follow, another 12 once ready. Total 24. It's a good number.

It will take them 7-8 years after first flight to get to FOC, and then they need to concentrate on the Pacific front first before bringing numbers over to the Indian side. That's closer to 2040. By which time we will also have ordered SCAF/GCAP, not just AMCA.

7-8 years that's for 6th gen aircraft, and India will take another 15 years to induct it's first 5th gen aircraft. We can with best of the hopes can say, 5.5 Gen aircraft due to advance avionics.

Only hopes about SCAP/GCAP, there is no formal plan yet.

So, 12 jets are not sufficient. If we are to buy more, it has to be the two-seat, plus MKIzed. Assuming the two-seat is ready in 2030, MKIzation alone will take 7 years before IOC. And then another 2-3 years before FOC. That takes us to 2040. That's why it's pointless.

Even if we choose single-seat, it will take until 2030 to mature and at least 2040 before it's FOC'd to IAF standards. Same timetable.

And we have to see if the two-seat comes with Izd 30 or still stuck with 177, which makes the jet extremely underpowered in Indian conditions.

By 2030 we will know the status of AMCA and the engine, so we can make the Su-57/60 purchase decision then.

Buy 2030 you will be getting all the 12 dual use trainers in fly off condition and by 2035 you will have MKIzed versions too.

FOC can work simultaneously, when it comes in fly off condition then very less to do. It won't take years, it's just a matter of 4-5 months until full forward deployment.

About the Izd 30, the Russians are offering it with good TOT along SU57E.

AMCA has issues with the timeline, supply chain, production chain and engine which won't be realized until 2035. And Until 2035 if you stick with Su57E plan, mkized one, you will have one SQN ready .

You don't have to buy 100 Su57E, just buy 24 like you bought Rafales.

Problem with AMCA is the engine and production chain. Nothing else.

Acquiring the F-35

F35 is crap.

16 air bases? That's peanuts. Plus they have just 6 air bases for fighters in Tibet. Those other 9-10 bases are helicopter and missile bases. This is how they trick people.

16 as of now and the number would increase to 24 and more with the time with capacity of 100 aircrafts on each base.

And they can't defeat physics. In Tibet, the loss of engine thrust is as high as 40-50%. They need very long runways to operate, and they have so few such runways that we can bomb them to bits. And they can only perform air defense with limited fuel loads.

Thrust issue depends on payload as well as you mentioned, and they have already built airfields with extended runways. With l BVR engagement with LR AAM and their air defence they are a big threat.

 

[Rajput Lion]

A 5th gen fighter, in addition to the Low Observability, is also 5th gen because of the improvement in avionics and computation capabilities.

If we still need a WSO in addition to a pilot, then it's not actually a 5th gen aircraft.

Chinese J-36 is supposed to have 2 pilot crew. So it won't be a 6th gen as per you? Also even before Su-57S, Chinese have already unveiled J-20S with tandem dual seats. This also won't be a 5th gen as per you:



IAF always wanted FGFA to be a tandem dual-seat layout like MKI. Guess they are just as clueless

 

[Rajput Lion]

View attachment 51755

Five years ago - possible rendering of 2 seater

https://en.topwar.ru/186629-odin-letchik-horosho-a-dva-luchshe-zachem-rossii-novaja-versija-su-57.html

That picture was made by a member of old Russian Defence Forum and for whom you wouldn't ever guess

 

[Speedster1]

I'd have thought a second pilot was redundant in the AI era + AR/VR flight simulators. But Sukhoi certainly got the aesthetics right with Su-57D.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Chinese J-36 is supposed to have 2 pilot crew. So it won't be a 6th gen as per you? Also even before Su-57S, Chinese have already unveiled J-20S with tandem dual seats. This also won't be a 5th gen as per you:

View attachment 51757

IAF always wanted FGFA to be a tandem dual-seat layout like MKI. Guess they are just as clueless

A dedicated training variant or an EW platform having 2 crew is justified is okay.

A 5th gen fighter, no. The computation power and sensor fusion should make WSO role redundant. F22, F35.

 

[Rajput Lion]

A dedicated training variant or an EW platform having 2 crew is justified is okay.

A 5th gen fighter, no. The computation power and sensor fusion should make WSO role redundant. F22, F35.

6th gen jets(all-aspect VLO tailless) jets have dedicated MUM-T requirement. That's why China went with lateral dual-seats set-up in their 6th gen premier fighter J-36.



But by the time these 6th gen mature, China is trying to turn their existing 5th gen J-20 into a 5.5 gen fighter by giving it MUM-T job. That's where J-20S was born.

IAF has always preferred tandem dual-seat arrangement in their heavy-weights for a reason. That's why FGFA was always supposed to be with MKI like layout and when Russians said no, IAF walked out. Now FGFA is back on track.

Su-57D, as its tail emblem suggested, is going to be dedicated mothership for MUM-T while retaining entire air-combat ability of the single-seater. These jets are going to be more advance and dangerous than their single-seat counterpart and that's why they exist.

Stop seeing everything with American glasses. Su-27 and its derivatives are all superior to F-15 and its derivatives. Simply Su-57 is a more superior jet by design versus both F-22 & F-35. People just fall for American propaganda a little too often.

 

[GuardianRED]

That picture was made by a member of old Russian Defence Forum and for whom you wouldn't ever guess

For whom?

 

[Lolwa]

If we still need a WSO in addition to a pilot, then it's not actually a 5th gen aircraft

Even the f-35 pilots were requesting to a two pilot setup because the information onboard the f-35 was overwhelming the pilots. Two pilot management is a necessity for higher tech fighters. To employ so much computational power needs more than one individual.
And fifth gen standard set by Lockheed Martin requires the plane to have
LO/VLO/VVLO RCS
Supercruise
AESA radar
Sensor fusion and data sharing with higher bandwidth
Power management
Super-maneuverability
That all are fulfilled by the su-57. It is fifth gen by definition. F-22 is just a superior fifth gen but it also loses out on not having WVR capabilities and hmd.

 

[screambowl]

6th gen fighter will be a flying wing, may be two or single crew stealth fighter with advance weapons, better sensors and engine, AI and other automated features.

 

[Lolwa]

6th gen fighter will be a flying wing, may be two or single crew stealth fighter with advance weapons, better sensors and engine, AI and other automated features.

Sixth gen is basically from what I gather is
MUMT
Fly by light
Adaptive intelligent propulsion and energy management
Longer range
Stealth (stealth hasn't change though no RCS values have come and most likely the j-36 and j-50 will have higher RCS than the f-22 and b-21 and f-47 doesn't seem to be much stealthier either)
Longer ranged BVR 500-600 km top end reach end of life cycle
GaN+ type radar, ew
Sat targetting
Near space capabilities (anti sat)
Drone swarm management

Atleast that what seems to me would be the top end here.
It's Sad that we aren't getting mach 3 and mach 3.5+ capable fighters. Considering mig 31 is pretty much the best air superiority fighter.

 

[randomradio]

Two countries (incidentally enemies) giving up their respective S-300/400s just prior to being approved for the F-35 can't be a mere coincidence, imo.

It's just an excuse to pile the pressure on Turkey.

As a 5G stealth jet, the F-35 was billed by LM as being able to operate in hostile airspace (using JDAM/SDB type direct attack munitions) covered by LRSAMs just like S-400.


But the fact that SEAD is still required in real world conditions tells me that S-400 poses a real threat to the F-35.

SEAD/DEAD is always required, no matter the generation.

Any data shared over US supplied datalinks/satcom is likely routed through/backed up on US based servers for redundancy.

No.

Besides, data captured by US origin systems like MQ-9B may need to be accessed during routine maintenance by GA, etc. Though we have agreements in place to protect such data, the US isn't exactly known to abide by rules.

What? No.

 

[randomradio]

A 5th gen fighter, in addition to the Low Observability, is also 5th gen because of the improvement in avionics and computation capabilities.

If we still need a WSO in addition to a pilot, then it's not actually a 5th gen aircraft.

The WSO is required for drones.

The Americans have planned drones around mass, whereas Russia and China are planning drones around mass and capability.

Mass means cheap drones with simplicity in mind so one pilot is sufficient. Advanced drones means complex mission profiles. So you need one WSO dedicated to advanced tactics while the pilot handles cheaper drones that support his mission of flying around and staying alive.

 

[randomradio]

12 is a good number to start and buy time in the coming years , and can be imported in fly off condition. Russians can produce 12 per year. MKIzed one can follow, another 12 once ready. Total 24. It's a good number.

Figure out the math of doing this, you will see how unrealistic it is.

7-8 years that's for 6th gen aircraft, and India will take another 15 years to induct it's first 5th gen aircraft. We can with best of the hopes can say, 5.5 Gen aircraft due to advance avionics.

Only hopes about SCAP/GCAP, there is no formal plan yet.

Both countries are still at the start of the 6th gen cycle, so it's fine. Plus we are importing from already accomplished players.

FOC can work simultaneously, when it comes in fly off condition then very less to do. It won't take years, it's just a matter of 4-5 months until full forward deployment.

FOC normally takes 3-5 years. F-35 is already at 10 years and counting.

MKI took 5 years. LCA Mk1 and Rafale took 3 years.

AMCA has issues with the timeline, supply chain, production chain and engine which won't be realized until 2035. And Until 2035 if you stick with Su57E plan, mkized one, you will have one SQN ready .

Like I said, we won't get MKIzed Su-57 with FOC anytime before 2040. It takes 7 years to get to IOC and service entry with 4 jets and then another 3 years minimum to get to FOC. That's 10 years.

Plus the Su-57s are not with Izd 30 but older 177. This engine is underpowered for Indian conditions due to the standard 15% penalty for hot and high conditions.

You don't have to buy 100 Su57E, just buy 24 like you bought Rafales.

100 is too high, need production at this point. 24 is too low, doesn't justify MKIzation. And non-MKIzed Su-57 is useless. And serious induction is only possible in parallel to AMCA, so it's even more pointless at this point. Su-57 should have finished development in 2020, and with Izd 30.

It's better to choose SCAF/GCAP instead. The IAF's decided to do that.

16 as of now and the number would increase to 24 and more with the time with capacity of 100 aircrafts on each base.

6 air bases with just 30-60 each. And only some 50-60 J-10s and 14 J-20s in Tibet today. Slightly larger fleets in Xinjiang and Yunnan.

Overall, all they are aiming for is deterrence against India with 100-150 jets.

Thrust issue depends on payload as well as you mentioned, and they have already built airfields with extended runways. With l BVR engagement with LR AAM and their air defence they are a big threat.

An air force capable of only air defense is not a threat.

 

[Rajput Lion]

For whom?

Leave it

Even the f-35 pilots were requesting to a two pilot setup because the information onboard the f-35 was overwhelming the pilots. Two pilot management is a necessity for higher tech fighters. To employ so much computational power needs more than one individual.
And fifth gen standard set by Lockheed Martin requires the plane to have
LO/VLO/VVLO RCS
Supercruise
AESA radar
Sensor fusion and data sharing with higher bandwidth
Power management
Super-maneuverability
That all are fulfilled by the su-57. It is fifth gen by definition.

+1.

F-22 is just a superior fifth gen but it also loses out on not having WVR capabilities and hmd.

Superior 5th gen? That's another Western propaganda. F-22 is at best slightly more stealthy from side/rear aspect but that's about it. Su-57 has better and more distributed sensors like cheek AESA arrays, wing-leading edge mounted L-Band AESA radar, internal IRST, DIRCM, UV + IR MAWS along with integrated EW suite. It beats F-22 in kinematics even with AL-41F1 engines. F-22 in order to match Su-57's IRST and range has to compromise its stealth because of inclusion of pods, while Su-57's next evolution would be far better than its gen one in terms of capablities. F-22 is simply no match for Su-57, nor is F-35. Americans know this, that's why they are seriously developing F-47 to outgun Su-57.

 

[lmaoxd]

A 5th gen fighter, in addition to the Low Observability, is also 5th gen because of the improvement in avionics and computation capabilities.

If we still need a WSO in addition to a pilot, then it's not actually a 5th gen aircraft.

Not always considering the appearance of the CCAs, A human pilot dedicated to this can probably control upto 8 at once with out too much issue vs a single pilot who can maybe do 4 with AI but not more reliably. 2 is probably where its at for a single pilot craft. There is a reason why the chinese (who probably have the most advanced CCA dev on the planet today) want a 2 seat J20. Ofc training also matters but 2 seat gives you that redundancy and extra capability.

 

[lmaoxd]

Superior 5th gen? That's another Western propaganda. F-22 is at best slightly more stealthy from side/rear aspect but that's about it. Su-57 has better and more distributed sensors like cheek AESA arrays, wing-leading edge mounted L-Band AESA radar, internal IRST, DIRCM, UV + IR MAWS along with integrated EW suite. It beats F-22 in kinematics even with AL-41F1 engines. F-22 in order to match Su-57's IRST and range has to compromise its stealth because of inclusion of pods, while Su-57's next evolution would be far better than its gen one in terms of capablities. F-22 is simply no match for Su-57, nor is F-35. Americans know this, that's why they are seriously developing F-47 to outgun Su-57.

...........the F22 is a much stealthier aircraft compared to the su57 mate. Its IR stealth does leave things to be desired but otherwise its still the best on the planet today. The F35 has a higher RCS becasue of the requirements it had. the J20 is not close. the J35 is much much better than the J20 in terms of stealth. probably only behind the F35. The su57 in its serial variant is maybe on par with the j20 but thats it.

Ofc in terms of IRST and cheek arrays and what not the su57 does have an advantage over the others since it was built in day one but the F35 also has its own version of this(not as expansive but still). Kinematically) I dont really know the full numbers yet, so i wont commentate but the su57 with the Al51 may be better.

each aircraft has its own advantages and disadvantages and the su57 cannot penetrate a dense AD reliably (to be fair i suspect that the F35 and F22 cannot do this any longer either with the advance in radar tech). It will be operated from friendly airspace with friendly AD support. If inducted it will be our stealth version of the su30mki. But we still need the AMCA for 5.5 gen tech and a lot of other stuff.

The advantage the su57 does have is that its probably more ready than the other 5th gens(bar the j20 because we dont know for sure) for CCA since russia has been developing the S70B for quite a while now. We dont really know how far that program has gotten but it looks like a good UAv especially with the flat exhaust on the upgraded prototype.

Its not better than the F35 or the F22 for doing the things they were designed for. That should be very obvious.

 

[Rajput Lion]

...........the F22 is a much stealthier aircraft compared to the su57 mate. Its IR stealth does leave things to be desired but otherwise its still the best on the planet today. The F35 has a higher RCS becasue of the requirements it had. the J20 is not close. the J35 is much much better than the J20 in terms of stealth. probably only behind the F35. The su57 in its serial variant is maybe on par with the j20 but thats it.

Ofc in terms of IRST and cheek arrays and what not the su57 does have an advantage over the others since it was built in day one but the F35 also has its own version of this(not as expansive but still). Kinematically) I dont really know the full numbers yet, so i wont commentate but the su57 with the Al51 may be better.

each aircraft has its own advantages and disadvantages and the su57 cannot penetrate a dense AD reliably (to be fair i suspect that the F35 and F22 cannot do this any longer either with the advance in radar tech). It will be operated from friendly airspace with friendly AD support. If inducted it will be our stealth version of the su30mki. But we still need the AMCA for 5.5 gen tech and a lot of other stuff.

The advantage the su57 does have is that its probably more ready than the other 5th gens(bar the j20 because we dont know for sure) for CCA since russia has been developing the S70B for quite a while now. We dont really know how far that program has gotten but it looks like a good UAv especially with the flat exhaust on the upgraded prototype.

Its not better than the F35 or the F22 for doing the things they were designed for. That should be very obvious.

It is better than both F-22 & F-35 because it was designed to kill both of them in a straight duel. Its entire sensor fusion of IRST, UV + IR MAWS, L-Band radars, 3 X-Band radars and digital RWRs etc., is designed to track F-22/F-35 before they can do the same to it and blow them out using BVRAAMs or IR missiles.

PS: Now with MUM-T of S-70, Su-57's combat efficacy has increased several times.

 

[lmaoxd]

It is better than both F-22 & F-35 because it was designed to kill both of them in a straight duel. Its entire sensor fusion of IRST, UV + IR MAWS, L-Band radars, 3 X-Band radars and digital RWRs etc., is designed to track F-22/F-35 before they can do the same to it and blow them out using BVRAAMs or IR missiles.

PS: Now with MUM-T of S-70, Su-57's combat efficacy has increased several times.

.............................................................. sure mate, why dont we agree to disagree and move on.

 

[randomradio]

The F35 has a higher RCS becasue of the requirements it had.

Gen. Mike Hostage On The F-35; No Growlers Needed When War Starts - Breaking Defense

For years, the news about the most expensive conventional weapons system in US history, the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, has been driven by its soaring costs, technical problems and schedule screw-ups. The government and Congress and the public rarely speak about what the F-35 will do, how...

breakingdefense.com

But stealth is not invisibility, especially for fighters that must have tails for maneuverability (rather than the B-2 stealth bomber’s tailless “flying wing” design). Both F-22s and F-35s will be spotted at range by low frequency radar. The F-35’s cross section is much smaller than the F-22’s, but that does not mean, Hostage concedes, that the F-35 is necessarily superior to the F-22 when we go to war. In fact, Hostage says that it takes eight F-35s to do what two F-22s can handle.

“The F-35 is geared to go out and take down the surface targets,” says Hostage, leaning forward. “The F-35 doesn’t have the altitude, doesn’t have the speed [of the F-22], but it can beat the F-22 in stealth.” But stealth — the ability to elude or greatly complicate an enemy’s ability to find and destroy an aircraft using a combination of design, tactics and technology — is not a magic pill, Hostage reminds us.

each aircraft has its own advantages and disadvantages and the su57 cannot penetrate a dense AD reliably (to be fair i suspect that the F35 and F22 cannot do this any longer either with the advance in radar tech).

Non-stealth and LO manned jets plan to use advanced drones for penetration. The Americans plan to use low-cost drones for mass for manned jets to stay alive during penetration.

France, in opting for a very high-end VLO combat drone to accompany
the Rafale F5, is taking the risk of adhering to an Augustinian logic of
hyper-performance at the expense of mass, with a projected unit cost likely
to exceed €100 million and procurement numbers that may only reach a few
dozen under current defense spending levels. By contrast, the USAF, in the
face of the operational challenge posed by the PLAAF in the Western Pacific,
has chosen to pursue combat drones with lower individual performance and
LO stealth characteristics, but whose unit cost, while increasing, remains low
enough to support the acquisition of several hundred partially expendable
platforms.

And penetration missions will be handled by F-47 and B-21 alongside CCAs. The writing's already on the wall for 4th and 5th gen.

 

[batman]

Even the f-35 pilots were requesting to a two pilot setup because the information onboard the f-35 was overwhelming the pilots. Two pilot management is a necessity for higher tech fighters. To employ so much computational power needs more than one individual.
And fifth gen standard set by Lockheed Martin requires the plane to have
LO/VLO/VVLO RCS
Supercruise
AESA radar
Sensor fusion and data sharing with higher bandwidth
Power management
Super-maneuverability
That all are fulfilled by the su-57. It is fifth gen by definition. F-22 is just a superior fifth gen but it also loses out on not having WVR capabilities and hmd.

F22 isn't a superior 5th gen, it's the worst 5th gen out there, apart from its raw performance, radar size & stealth, it is an outdated jet.