S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

[TARGET]

But if it was a Chinese awacs or a common Data Link then it an AWACS can provide ABC kill chain ?

Like Phalcon to Astra from a Su 30

Kill chain or guidance through AWACS sounds impressive only on paper, but in real combat I do not think it offers a major advantage over guidance provided through another fighter operating nearby. AWACS-based guidance for air-to-air missiles at ranges of 400 km sounds cool on paper, but now that very long-range missiles are entering service, I doubt any air force would risk AWACS operate close to contested airspace.

In my view, most air forces would prefer using AWACS mainly for detection, tracking, and battlespace management, while the actual missile guidance would still rely heavily on fighters closer to the engagement zone. I am also not sure next time how the PAF going to keep its AWACS fleet safe since the IAF has already demonstrated the kill at a distance of 380 kms.

 

[Barcid]

Until a deal is officially signed, social media in India will continue to speculate about everything and nothing. As of now, we are only moving ahead with Shilka upgrades, while Pantsir reportedly lost out to the South Korean Biho system.

Instead of relying entirely on foreign systems, we should develop our own Biho-like platform based on the Zorawar chassis. If there is a genuine requirement, DRDO and L&T should work together to develop an indigenous solution tailored to Indian operational needs.

Just found out that few years back we had cancelled biho procurement for army in favor of indigenous system

Carbines, Anti Air Systems for Indian Army to be made in India after MoD cancels import

In a special meeting held on Tuesday, chaired by the Defence Secretary, it has been decided that plans to procure close quarter carbines from a UAE based company and a program to import Self Propelled Air Defence systems from South Korea are being scrapped.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

I don't know which system they are talking about, but question is if such a system exists, why it isn't being used for IAF?

 

[Rune]

Just found out that few years back we had cancelled biho procurement for army in favor of indigenous system

Carbines, Anti Air Systems for Indian Army to be made in India after MoD cancels import

In a special meeting held on Tuesday, chaired by the Defence Secretary, it has been decided that plans to procure close quarter carbines from a UAE based company and a program to import Self Propelled Air Defence systems from South Korea are being scrapped.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

I don't know which system they are talking about, but question is if such a system exists, why it isn't being used for IAF?

VSHORAD and Pantsir are completely different class of systems. 57E6 is much more capable missile especially for intercepting long range artillery rockets and low/high subsonic munitions.

 

[Barcid]

VSHORAD and Pantsir are completely different class of systems. 57E6 is much more capable missile especially for intercepting long range artillery rockets and low/high subsonic munitions.

I am talking about vlsrsam, not vshorad. Anyways if a pantsir equivalent system exists for army, why is it not being used for IAF?

 

[Lolwa]

I am talking about vlsrsam, not vshorad. Anyways if a pantsir equivalent system exists for army, why is it not being used for IAF?

There is no Pantsir equivalent the closest Pantsir equivalent IAF has is the Tungushka.

 

[lmaoxd]

what about QRSAM?

There is no Pantsir equivalent the closest Pantsir equivalent IAF has is the Tungushka.

 

[randomradio]

There is no Pantsir equivalent the closest Pantsir equivalent IAF has is the Tungushka.

There's no direct replacement for the Pantsir anywhere except China.

IAF's main CIWS is L&T's Sudarshan, which they will operate alongside SPYDER, Akash, VL-SRSAM, and Anant Shastra.

 

[Fatalis]

N

There's no direct replacement for the Pantsir anywhere except China.

IAF's main CIWS is L&T's Sudarshan, which they will operate alongside SPYDER, Akash, VL-SRSAM, and Anant Shastra.

No plan seems to be in place for VL-SRSAM by IAF.

 

[Lolwa]

what about QRSAM?

QRSAM is closer to a TOR equivalent than a pantsir equivalent. In fact QRSAM is so technically advanced that there is no real equivalent that exists.
The closest equivalent is the Turkish HISARThe tracked Hisar-A system mounts its own mast-mounted Aselsan MAR radar and an electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) system, allowing it to operate as an independent, standalone system without the need to rely on information from other systems.

or the Russian Tor


and even then it's a bulky missile design. Both of these above designs can work single handedly without need of an entire network while the QRSAM requires seperate command control, launcher etc.


We need two sam systems that is more compact than the qrsam and offer a single one in all combination.

Personally I'm open for India procuring the Pantsir, Tor and Buk M3 provided we license produce them all and get export and upgradation rights to sell them to Armenia, Greece, Cyprus and Phillipines.
At the same time we can develop VSHORAD systems using the whap and vt-21 AAP to make our own Biho and Hisar using the DRDO MPDMS

 

[Lolwa]

There's no direct replacement for the Pantsir anywhere except China.

IAF's main CIWS is L&T's Sudarshan, which they will operate alongside SPYDER, Akash, VL-SRSAM, and Anant Shastra.

Even the Chinese dont have something like the pantsir. Their type 625 is closer to Stryker AD than a complete solution like the pantsir


My bad they have the fk-2000 and fk-3000

 

[randomradio]

N

No plan seems to be in place for VL-SRSAM by IAF.

The IAF version will follow once the IN's system is ready.

They want to make it export friendly for many air forces with multiple missile options that they can also use on fighters.

Plus it adds to the IAF's inventory of AAMs indirectly, like SPYDER.

 

[randomradio]

QRSAM is closer to a TOR equivalent than a pantsir equivalent. In fact QRSAM is so technically advanced that there is no real equivalent that exists.
The closest equivalent is the Turkish HISARThe tracked Hisar-A system mounts its own mast-mounted Aselsan MAR radar and an electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) system, allowing it to operate as an independent, standalone system without the need to rely on information from other systems.
View attachment 51859
or the Russian Tor
View attachment 51862

and even then it's a bulky missile design. Both of these above designs can work single handedly without need of an entire network while the QRSAM requires seperate command control, launcher etc.
View attachment 51861

We need two sam systems that is more compact than the qrsam and offer a single one in all combination.

Personally I'm open for India procuring the Pantsir, Tor and Buk M3 provided we license produce them all and get export and upgradation rights to sell them to Armenia, Greece, Cyprus and Phillipines.
At the same time we can develop VSHORAD systems using the whap and vt-21 AAP to make our own Biho and Hisar using the DRDO MPDMS
View attachment 51863
View attachment 51864
View attachment 51865

IA's mobile elements will come via QRSAM and a new SPAD-GMS competition where Biho II is the favorite to win.

IAF's only viable mobile element for now is Pantsir 'cause it's already integrated with the S-400's C2 and is the only one of its kind. Sudarshan CIWS' mobility is not meant for cross-country operations like the S-400/Pantsir combo.

IA doesn't need Tor 'cause of QRSAM. And Tor is not meant for the IAF. It doesn't meet requirements anyway.

Akash NG and MRSAM more than negate the need for Buk M3.

 

[Anupu]

QRSAM is closer to a TOR equivalent than a pantsir equivalent. In fact QRSAM is so technically advanced that there is no real equivalent that exists.
The closest equivalent is the Turkish HISARThe tracked Hisar-A system mounts its own mast-mounted Aselsan MAR radar and an electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) system, allowing it to operate as an independent, standalone system without the need to rely on information from other systems.
View attachment 51859
or the Russian Tor
View attachment 51862

and even then it's a bulky missile design. Both of these above designs can work single handedly without need of an entire network while the QRSAM requires seperate command control, launcher etc.
View attachment 51861

We need two sam systems that is more compact than the qrsam and offer a single one in all combination.

Personally I'm open for India procuring the Pantsir, Tor and Buk M3 provided we license produce them all and get export and upgradation rights to sell them to Armenia, Greece, Cyprus and Phillipines.
At the same time we can develop VSHORAD systems using the whap and vt-21 AAP to make our own Biho and Hisar using the DRDO MPDMS
View attachment 51863
View attachment 51864
View attachment 51865

I mean while I am never totally opposed to imports. Do we really need to import something like Biho or for that matter Pantsir. There is nothing in those systems that we don’t have a local counterpart for.

From my understanding the main usp of pantsir is a relatively cost effective comand guided missile.

 

[Lolwa]

IA doesn't need Tor 'cause of QRSAM. And Tor is not meant for the IAF. It doesn't meet requirements anyway

I agree with IAF not requiring the TOR. IA could employ the Tor cause Tor was designed for moving armoured columns.
The reason for me promoting the Buk is that it has backward compatibility with kub so technically can be integrated with Akash too. And we will need far more AD. Buk can be used as an expendable AD and Tor can be used for protecting ammo dumps etc.
IAF doesn't require Tor.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I agree with IAF not requiring the TOR. IA could employ the Tor cause Tor was designed for moving armoured columns.
The reason for me promoting the Buk is that it has backward compatibility with kub so technically can be integrated with Akash too. And we will need far more AD. Buk can be used as an expendable AD and Tor can be used for protecting ammo dumps etc.
IAF doesn't require Tor.

IAF knows what it wants. No amount of fanboyism or shilling for either domestic or imported products shall deter them from acquiring what is best for their combat enhancement. Period.

 

[randomradio]

I agree with IAF not requiring the TOR. IA could employ the Tor cause Tor was designed for moving armoured columns.
The reason for me promoting the Buk is that it has backward compatibility with kub so technically can be integrated with Akash too. And we will need far more AD. Buk can be used as an expendable AD and Tor can be used for protecting ammo dumps etc.
IAF doesn't require Tor.

There's no such thing as an expendable AD. And Buk is expensive. It's pretty much the same system we use on Delhi, Shivalik, and Talwar class ships. We even have the upgraded one operational today called Shtil-1.

And Buk used to share similarities only in its M1 form. Since then it's become an all new system, like Akash and Akash NG.

Buk's been generationally superceded by MRSAM and Akash NG. The Russians have fallen behind India here.

 

[Lolwa]

There's no such thing as an expendable AD. And Buk is expensive. It's pretty much the same system we use on Delhi, Shivalik, and Talwar class ships. We even have the upgraded one operational today called Shtil-1.

And Buk used to share similarities only in its M1 form. Since then it's become an all new system, like Akash and Akash NG.

Buk's been generationally superceded by MRSAM and Akash NG. The Russians have fallen behind India here.

The Akash NG is their s-350 vityaz equivalent.
Buk is pretty affordable compared to full fledged AD systems.

 

[randomradio]

The Akash NG is their s-350 vityaz equivalent.
Buk is pretty affordable compared to full fledged AD systems.

S-350 and Buk perform the same roles. The former for static sites, the latter is mobile.

They are both a generation behind MRSAM and Akash NG.

 

[Lolwa]

S-350 and Buk perform the same roles. The former for static sites, the latter is mobile.

They are both a generation behind MRSAM and Akash NG.

Buk is more on the mr-sam class TBF

 

[South block]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2062171555908776253