Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany

[randomradio]

What part don't you understand?
The nations who develop the tech with LM, own the tech, The US can't delegate it, Anyone wanting it, has to negotiate with the nation who owns it,

Israel can offer, but again I haven't seen it said

The Israelis were the ones who offered it. They are cool with us. In fact, they want to start a next gen fighter program with India.

The Saudis will obviously have to stick their own stuff in. When I say they are offering what was offered to Israel, I'm talking about the modified airframe. Whether you want to put Israeli stuff in or an alternative, that's up to you. So we are discussing two different things.

Basically, non-NATO allies are being offered the F-35I with the option to modify the jet just like the Israelis did.

Anyway for now this is the closest I could find.

What is the F-35 fighter jet, and why does Saudi Arabia want it?

As Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman visits the US, we take a look at the fighter jet his country wants to buy.

www.aljazeera.com

Trump said on Tuesday that Saudi Arabia would have the same F-35s that Israel does,

The US disagrees with you about the S-400

Türkiye must abandon S-400 system to rejoin F-35 program: US envoy

U.S. Ambassador to Türkiye and Special Envoy for Syria Tom Barrack stated on Wednesday that Türkiye must forgo operating or retaining the Russian S-400...

www.dailysabah.com

Other than the voices in your head, I'll call you out, put credible links for India and Saudis being offered the F-35I
This is like drowning kittens, it's painful to watch you

That's for kids like yourself. Nobody in the US cares about F-35s operating alongside S-400s.

Turkish expert furious over US offer to give F-35 fighter jet to India, says this about Russian S-400, slams US

Turkish expert furious over US offer to give F-35 fighter jet to India, says this about Russian S-400, slams US

www.india.com

'Tis just politics.

 

[Optimist]

Show the links to your Israeli claims for Indian and Saudi

So the US ambassador is just for kids? Would you like another link?
It has already been reported that if the US makes an official F-35 offer, there are conditions on no S-400
Not that I see an official offer or request from either side

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/india-400-deal-ruining-f-35-acquisition-plan-ps

Google Search

 

[randomradio]

Apart from some future 6th gen being tailless, what revolutionary stealth geometry does these jets employ that not already present in these 5th gen? Also if such metamaterials become operational, what makes you think it can't be employed in 5th gen.

You can't have flat surfaces on the jet, like the Su-57 does.

MMs are great, but nobody has reached the level where we can use MMs alone to achieve stealth. 5th gen jets are not suitable for MMW and above or VHF due to flat panels and gaps. We need morphing airfoils and smart actuators like shape memory alloys for 6th gen.

Basically zero flat panels and no gaps, that's 6th gen.

Those reflection causes radar returns.

During extreme maneuvers...

Stealth isn't important when doing extreme maneuvers.

 

[randomradio]

Yes, for France it makes much more sense to work with India than to have to artificially divide design authority between partners who did not want the same aircraft. I had also suggested to our president that Dassault should modify the Indian AMCA so that it could serve as the FCAS demonstrator. It is an idea that is now becoming more credible.

If we are willing to pay that much, SCAF will become the only choice.

 

[randomradio]

Show the links to your Israeli claims for Indian and Saudi

So the US ambassador is just for kids? Would you like another link?
It has already been reported that if the US makes an official F-35 offer, there are conditions on no S-400
Not that I see an official offer or request from either side

Google Search

All that's for people like yourselves. The Americans have no problems with India operating the S-400 alongside the F-35.

You can believe what you want. Maybe physics works differently in India. Reality is the S-400 can't do what the US has accused it of doing. It's a laughable excuse to kick Turkey out of the F-35 program just 'cause the Israelis wanted it.

India was offered the F-35 and was rejected.

India Informs US It Will Not Purchase F-35 Fighter Jets

India has notified the United States that it will not acquire Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter jets, according to a Bloomberg report. The decisi

swarajyamag.com

India has notified the United States that it will not acquire Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter jets, according to a Bloomberg report.

The decision was communicated following a US offer made by President Donald Trump during a February 2025 meeting with Prime Minister Narendra Modi in New Delhi.
JD Vance made the offer too.

US–India Military Cooperation under Vice President J.D. Vance: F–35, Joint Autonomous Systems Industry Alliance & Nuclear Reactors for India

Recent visit of US Vice President J.D. Vance to India underscored the deepening defence ties between the two nations

www.spsnavalforces.com

Vance especially highlighted, "American fifth-generation F-35s, for example, would give the Indian Air Force the ability to defend your airspace and protect your people like never before. And I've met a lot of great people from the Indian Air Force just in the last couple of days."
The Israelis did too.

F-35s secured our air supremacy, can give India similar edge: Israeli envoy

Spotlighting the air superiority it has given to his country's air force, Israeli Ambassador to India Reuven Azar has said that any future deal between India and the United States on supply of F-35 fighter jets will give a similar edge to the Indian Air Force (IAF) in the near future.

www.awazthevoice.in

"I think that the advanced technologies in the military realm are very important to create an edge over adversaries. We already have received several squadrons of F-35s, and they are proving themselves to be very efficient in creating Israeli supremacy over the skies of the Middle East. If India manages to do the same and acquires F-35s, no doubt it will give it a similar edge," Azar told IANS in an exclusive interview on Wednesday.

Funny how both US and Israel are so keen on India buying F-35s.

Just so you know, Israel is turning India into their principle defense supplier for weapons to meet their own future needs. An alternate supplier in case their own production is destroyed. So they are setting up factories in India for all their cutting-edge weapons. Plus it's cheaper to build in India.

 

[Optimist]

You just make it up as you go, is it the voices in your head?
Repeating what I said doesn't win you a prize "Not that I see an official offer or request from either side"

Neither link mentions India being offered the F-35I

If you opened my links, it is quite clear that the S-400 will have to go and probably other Russian tech

 

[Optimist]

Is this the same fantasy you had when you said India should buy F-47I off of Israel?







i

 

[randomradio]

You just make it up as you go, is it the voices in your head?
Repeating what I said doesn't win you a prize "Not that I see an official offer or request from either side"

Neither link mentions India being offered the F-35I

If you opened my links, it is quite clear that the S-400 will have to go and probably other Russian tech

I think you are confused about how an "offer" works.

Whether the US sells the F-35 or not depends entirely on India starting a program for it. Either by issuing a general EoI/RFI or by directly sending an LoR.

It's kinda like Apple cannot sell you a phone, you have to either go online or go to a store and buy one yourself.

What the US has done is say, "We are willing to sell the F-35 to you. Please make a request." And we went, "Nope."

That's about it.

Your links are made for you, not for us.

 

[batman]

You can't have flat surfaces on the jet, like the Su-57 does.

MMs are great, but nobody has reached the level where we can use MMs alone to achieve stealth. 5th gen jets are not suitable for MMW and above or VHF due to flat panels and gaps. We need morphing airfoils and smart actuators like shape memory alloys for 6th gen.

Basically zero flat panels and no gaps, that's 6th gen.

You're presenting hypotheses as established facts. Flat surfaces are not some outdated stealth mistake, every successful stealth aircraft from the F-117 to the F-22 and F-35 uses carefully aligned flat panels because stealth is about controlling reflections, not eliminating flat geometry. Likewise, there is no public evidence that F-47 or GCAP achieve "VHF to terahertz stealth" through morphing airfoils or shape-memory alloys. Those are research topics, not confirmed operational features. And "zero gaps" isn't realistic on a fighter that still needs control surfaces, weapons bays, maintenance panels, and moving actuators. If sixth-generation aircraft truly possess revolutionary shaping that makes them stealthy across such an enormous frequency range, then point to actual program disclosures or technical papers. Otherwise, you're speculating about what future technologies might do and treating them as capabilities that already exist.

During extreme maneuvers...

Stealth isn't important when doing extreme maneuvers.

That's not really how radar reflections work. A canard doesn't become radar-reflective only when it's making extreme maneuvers, it reflects radar whenever it's exposed to a radar wave. The real question is how much it reflects and whether the aircraft's shaping directs those reflections away from the radar source. Modern canards like those on the J-20 are clearly designed to reduce the penalty, but saying they only cause reflections during high-G maneuvers isn't supported by radar physics. If that were true, stealth designers wouldn't have spent decades treating canards as a stealth tradeoff in the first place.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

Yes, for France it makes much more sense to work with India than to have to artificially divide design authority between partners who did not want the same aircraft. I had also suggested to our president that Dassault should modify the Indian AMCA so that it could serve as the FCAS demonstrator. It is an idea that is now becoming more credible.

I appreciate your proposal regarding the plan. But, We already know the kind of work share that was decided under the previous French+German+Spanish FCAS project. Nothing less than what was under German+Spanish work share percentage is acceptable for Indian partnership, maybe with a different distribution framework like 50% co-development in Engine, Designing, Stealth, Sensors.

 

[GASOLINE_ON_FIRE]

You just make it up as you go, is it the voices in your head?
Repeating what I said doesn't win you a prize "Not that I see an official offer or request from either side"

Neither link mentions India being offered the F-35I

If you opened my links, it is quite clear that the S-400 will have to go and probably other Russian tech

Is this the same fantasy you had when you said India should buy F-47I off of Israel?







i

Its so funny to watch you banging your head against randomradio. Inevitably, everyone who engages with randomradio comes to the same conclusion - he will make stuff up as he goes.


F-35 was never formally offered to India. Trump just hinted towards it informally. That means nothing. zero. nada. But, thats more than enough for randomradio to extrapolate & build castles in the air.
India will NEVER buy a frontline fighter jet from the US. Too many problems, not just domestic but foreign as well. When Trump informally made that remark in early 2025, europeans on twitter had a meltdown(you can probably guess why).

View attachment 52188
I appreciate your proposal regarding the plan. But, We already know the kind of work share that was decided under the previous French+German+Spanish FCAS project. Nothing less than what was under German+Spanish work share percentage is acceptable for Indian partnership, maybe with a different distribution framework like 50% co-development in Engine, Designing, Stealth, Sensors.

France just wants to use India as a cash cow like russians did for decades. If you want a realistic partnership, approach the people who have same primary adversary as you. That means - South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc.

 

[BHARAT KA BETA]

France just wants to use India as a cash cow like russians did for decades. If you want a realistic partnership, approach the people who have same primary adversary as you. That means - South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc.

I partially agree with your opinion. Yes, France will look at India as a project funding partner rather a 50% actual development partner, and this is the real concern for any possibility of this partnership in future.

But if you're saying replacing France just to join other options like Japan/ S.Korea/ Taiwan just to answer the China factor, I think that'll not be wise and I've reasons for that.
(1) We need core know-how on major technologies like Aeroengine( Main ), Sensors, Designing of a 6th generation platform. Those other options are not capable to help us in these domain in know-how.
(2) 6th generation platform development is a very high cost project. Even after 10 years , the Indian Economy will find it difficult to finance such a high end project independently. Apart from Japan, neither of the remaining 2 options of your suggestions are able to be helpful for us there, if we think about replacing France.
(3) France is a permanent member of UNSC + Epicenter of European power. We can't ignore this side too.
(4) The French+ co-development project will be a twin use ( Air force + Navy) system which will also be helpful for us if we're planning for operating large displacement CATOBAR capable Aircraft Carriers in future. Neither of those 3 options will be a good choice there.
(5) Japan is already part of UK's GCAP project, so there is very less chance for any co-development with them seperately. Whereas either S.Korea or, Taiwan are not able to be a reliable development partner on the same ground as France or, Japan.

I'm neither in favour of co-development with France, nor against it. I'm with whatever is in the best of our interests in long term. Let's see how things unfold in near future.

 

[Barcid]

I think you are confused about how an "offer" works.

Whether the US sells the F-35 or not depends entirely on India starting a program for it. Either by issuing a general EoI/RFI or by directly sending an LoR.

It's kinda like Apple cannot sell you a phone, you have to either go online or go to a store and buy one yourself.

What the US has done is say, "We are willing to sell the F-35 to you. Please make a request." And we went, "Nope."

That's about it.

Your links are made for you, not for us.

But India made a request called MRFA. F35 didn't enter it.

 

[Optimist]

Your links are made for you, not for us.

You mean----Reality is for the world, not for the voices in my head

Its so funny to watch you banging your head against randomradio.

It's like the arcade game, whac-a- mole, Entertaining but it just goes on and on

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

View attachment 52188
I appreciate your proposal regarding the plan. But, We already know the kind of work share that was decided under the previous French+German+Spanish FCAS project. Nothing less than what was under German+Spanish work share percentage is acceptable for Indian partnership, maybe with a different distribution framework like 50% co-development in Engine, Designing, Stealth, Sensors.

The Rafale contract is becoming almost self-sustaining. It would enable Dassault and its partners to immediately finance:

• the ramp-up of the Rafale production line;
• the early procurement of long-lead components;
• an increase in spare parts stocks;
• the training of additional personnel;
• the scaling up of Indian MRO capacity for a much larger fleet;
• the industrial implementation of ‘Make in India’;
• the securing of critical subcontractors;
• and probably part of the developments related to Indian F4/F5 standards.

And in the Indian case, the down payment would have an additional effect: it would immediately legitimise the ramp-up of support in India. Even before the 114 aircraft arrive, spare parts could already be ordered, teams trained, MRO capabilities expanded, local production lines prepared, and the existing 36 Rafales made more deployable in a crisis.

The contract for 114 Rafales would not merely be a future order.
It would trigger a substantial down payment.
This down payment would finance the industrial ramp-up.
The industrial ramp-up would strengthen India’s MCO.
The strengthened MCO would immediately make the current 36 Rafales more deployable.
The 26 Rafale Marine aircraft add a joint operations capability.
And all of this paves the way for much broader cooperation, potentially extending to a future Franco-Indian combat system.

It’s a genuine chain of causality. And it’s far more robust than the simple notion that “India will buy the Rafale because it likes it”. Here, we can see why the choice becomes rational, cumulative and almost impossible to replace.

 

[randomradio]

But India made a request called MRFA. F35 didn't enter it.

They didn't want to give ToT, only export. Entering MRFA requires agreeing to ToT terms.

Plus they have some convoluted rule saying they will provide classified intel only after a sale is guaranteed.

And for the F-35 to be operationally useful, unlike F-47, we will have to buy it in large numbers, like 200, which isn't feasible without ToT. So the F-35 was never an option if it wasn't coming on Indian terms.

 

[randomradio]

You mean----Reality is for the world, not for the voices in my head

You can believe what you want, but the Americans will turn around and offer the F-47 too, irrespective of the S-400s. I just use common sense, you lot just get tricked by your own govts.

 

[randomradio]

The Rafale contract is becoming almost self-sustaining. It would enable Dassault and its partners to immediately finance:

• the ramp-up of the Rafale production line;
• the early procurement of long-lead components;
• an increase in spare parts stocks;
• the training of additional personnel;
• the scaling up of Indian MRO capacity for a much larger fleet;
• the industrial implementation of ‘Make in India’;
• the securing of critical subcontractors;
• and probably part of the developments related to Indian F4/F5 standards.

And in the Indian case, the down payment would have an additional effect: it would immediately legitimise the ramp-up of support in India. Even before the 114 aircraft arrive, spare parts could already be ordered, teams trained, MRO capabilities expanded, local production lines prepared, and the existing 36 Rafales made more deployable in a crisis.

The contract for 114 Rafales would not merely be a future order.
It would trigger a substantial down payment.
This down payment would finance the industrial ramp-up.
The industrial ramp-up would strengthen India’s MCO.
The strengthened MCO would immediately make the current 36 Rafales more deployable.
The 26 Rafale Marine aircraft add a joint operations capability.
And all of this paves the way for much broader cooperation, potentially extending to a future Franco-Indian combat system.

It’s a genuine chain of causality. And it’s far more robust than the simple notion that “India will buy the Rafale because it likes it”. Here, we can see why the choice becomes rational, cumulative and almost impossible to replace.

The main Indian partner hasn't been chosen yet, right? So how will the orders be placed for production tools and materials without the JV company being established first?

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The main Indian partner hasn't been chosen yet, right? So how will the orders be placed for production tools and materials without the JV company being established first?

I get the impression that this contract was drawn up jointly well before the administrative procedures were set in motion, but that’s only possible if the parties keep it under wraps; on the other hand, it means that things are now going to move much faster, so we’ll see.

 

[randomradio]

I get the impression that this contract was drawn up jointly well before the administrative procedures were set in motion, but that’s only possible if the parties keep it under wraps; on the other hand, it means that things are now going to move much faster, so we’ll see.

The import component's ramp up can be faster than usual at the very least, so we can get 1 squadron in before the contracted time.